TELEPHONE INTERVIEW
DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (“DL”) AND
BRIAN ST. GERMAINE (“BS”)
BS: took it and ah had a focus on what we want to do
DL: So you and who else?
BS: Carolyn VanEe.
DL: Carolyn VanEe?
BS: Yes she was the President.
DL: Okay.
BS: and ah, but seriously when it started in ‘92 when I first came
in contact with it, it was just a small group of people meeting in a small
room. The President at that time, ah
because of the stress of what he was going through, just couldn’t stay so, ah it fell on Carolyn and me to, to ah keep it going
DL: Okay.
BS: so we set up a focus that we wanted to lobby for political
change and ah provide information as much as possible to people about ah you
know the court system and what they were up against.
DL: Okay.
BS: So then it, it expanded to ah the
DL: Oh really.
BS: Yeah
DL: Oh so what year was that?
BS: Ah, it would have been ah boy, I would say 1995.
DL: Oh, okay.
BS: Yeah, So, I mean they were active in
focuses
mainly on the Federal Government
DL: Okay. HH00528
-2-
BS: and we ah deal as much as possible with
the Provincial.
DL: Oh, well that’s a good thing. You have a
different scope. Okay so Provincial is
BS: Well, to generally speak that was the
general idea, of course we all both appeared at the **** and ah very active to try and get
some changes to happen, as a matter of a fact ah we were instrumental in
getting the ah * participating in the ah, the access enforcement legislation in
DL: Is that working at all, it’s a wonderful
idea, do you have any sense of
BS: Well at least it gives people an avenue to
ah to get some resolution before they would just go back to Court, spend a lot
of money and there would be no consequence, so now at least there’s, there’s
the possibility of a consequence where there is real abuse of the system.
DL: Right, right.
BS: At least
there’s a procedure they can follow and get some resolution.
DL: Right.
BS: We had one member who had been to court
over twenty, at least twenty-four times.
DL: Oh my god.
BS: and ah I had no resolution and eventually
he has no contact with his children see. So ah you know that, that was a good
step forward.
DL: No kidding.
BS: Yeah. So yeah, there, the organization now
has a support group where people go and they get ah some advice on how to proceed and how to represent themselves if they
want to or, or what, what the issues are and how to best make their case for yearly[gaining]
access and custody, plus you know we ah, we promote joint custody, we don’t believe full custody is good and ah you
know, access as much as possible.
[The
former vice president is here describing the support group, set up after his
time...] [Next]
DL: Right.
BS: Yeah.
DL: Right. Yeah, so your
kind of a voice of reason in the wilderness.
BS: Well we try to be, ah, anyway the reason,
back to the reason why Carolyn and I sort of stepped aside is we felt the
organization needed to sort of get a new ah perspective, it’s kind of like we
nurtured it along but everything that we did was what Carolyn and I wanted to
do and we felt that it needed a broader perspective from
H1H100529
-3-
other people participating.
So we sort of stepped aside and said okay, you
know if this is a good thing then its gonna continue to flourish, if its
not then its gonna fall by the waist line[wayside]. Kind
of a test, you know, whether it was just me and Carolyn or whether it was the
proper thing to be doing.
DL: Right, right,
well that sounds very ah very broad minded and sensible to me.
BS: Yeah.
DL: Yeah. Well im sorry um that im
having to write this story, that this is an issue that's come up and I,
I don't know um how closely you've um you've followed since but lastly[week]
I feel something um very disturbing
happened in ECMAS Edmonton, um and that's a gentleman by the name of [Tim]
Adams was, was elected as Vice-President and the difficulty as I see it with
his election is that he's a man with an unsavoury
past and um that might kind of taint ECMAS, um and um im,
it does not appear to
me from the people that I have spoken to
that the desperate usually fathers, but not
always fathers, who are going to ECMAS' support group
for help are being told, aren't totally being
informed of who this man is and what his past is. [More will be
said
shortly in My Case about this matter of whether people were in fact
being informed.]
BS: Actually
it was just last week that I heard about it myself and I, I suspect you’ve
heard it from Louise *[Malenfant].
[He well might not have heard of
because he'd been inactive in ECMAS since
DL: I’ve
heard it from a couple of people including Louise, yeah. [Back]
BS: So, ah I really don’t know. Ah she says
she has his ah, a copy of his disbarment papers or his disbarment order or
whatever, so I was unaware of his history ah
DL: When did you meet Mr. Adams or did you meet Mr. Adams?
BS: Ah, I met Mr. Adams, ah probably ah two
years ago.
DL: Okay.
BS: Yeah.
DL: Okay, so. Were you still involved or?
BS: Ah, just at
the very end of my involvement probably.
DL: Okay. Do you remember how he joined the group.
BS: Ah, no I don’t.
DL: Okay, okay. Um so, so when you were around
it certainly wasn’t common knowledge that he you know was disbarred?
BS: No, no.
[To repeat, "at the very
end" of his involvement, BS wouldn't have known what was and was not
common knowledge in the group about then-newcomer
-4-
DL: Okay. Um, now I,
I, I don’t want to put you in a difficult position, um and I don’t have to
um use your name, although I would prefer to um my, I think its important to
write the story because I think it's important that people not be mislead when
their going to groups for help um or hurt by associating with groups for help,
um I
think it would be very healthy for the you know the non-custodial parents
movement if I did have people on the record who were prepared to let me use their names
and you know you may be one of those people or you may have your own reasons
not to, but people saying
you know this is wrong, because then it doesn’t look like the whole
non-custodial group out there or you know the whole community doesn’t care
about this. Um so you know I, I, I realize that im
kind of putting you in a awkward position and im
sorry about that but im going to write a story that says this man has an unsavoury past he’s a disbarred lawyer, he was disbarred for having sex with
one of his clients, that client was a sixteen year old prostitute and people
are not being told about that and they deserve to be told about that. Um now is there any comments that you feel that you might like to
make? [As seen by reading from the
beginning, the reporter never asked the former VP what he knew about the events
at issue. She merely launched into saying she's going to write against
BS: Well,
when Louise approached me about this I, it was the first I heard about it of
course and ah I took the position that because Carolyn and myself had said that
the point where we stopped being President and Vice-President we’re gonna let
you people have this and do with it what you can or will. Ah I told Louise I
said I don’t feel comfortable now going back and saying well you’ve done it
wrong.
DL: Fair
enough.
BS: You know. So ah with that in
mind I really can’t comment on, on what’s happened or who is involved now just
for that reason.
DL: Okay. Do you..sorry
BS: Ya, [The reporter continues to apply pressure even after being
told "No comment":]
DL: Do
you have any concern that um, see im concerned that a
guy goes there he’s got trouble up to his ears because he’s he’s
you know all these problems in family court he goes there, he gets involved
with [Tim] Adams who apparently is giving out his cards at these meetings and
people are saying oh you should talk to [Tim] about that, he was a lawyer. He
shows up in Court with this guy and it’s a strike against him. [To convince BS to comment,
she presents as facts the claims
(both false, as noted earlier) that
BS: Yeah.
DL: You
know. Because he’s hanging around with this unsavoury
character and he doesn’t even know, no one has
even told him. [BS now just changes the subject.] [Next]
BS: You, you know
what the, for me the underlying issue here is
DL: Uh-huh.
BS: When
we started ECMAS, we Carolyn and myself, decided that we didn’t have
the skills that or the ability to give counselling. HH00531
-5-
DL: Okay.
BS: What we
wanted to do was to lobby for political change
DL: Right.
BS: As well as
give as much information to people as possible about what, where to find the
law, ah you know what they can expect when they go to court. The problem really
is that there is no support available through any of the social agencies.
DL: Okay.
BS: There is no
funding available for organizations like ECMAS. So you have the only support for
these people is kitchen table support if you will.
DL: Okay.
BS: Where the neighbour helps you out.
DL: Yeah.
BS: There is
no government programs or social programs available to help these
people.
DL: Right.
BS: So
now you’Il end up with someone who is now described
as unsavoury, but where else are they gonna go.
DL: Right.
BS: That’s the problem
DL: Okay.
BS: And we’ve asked for
funding and ah we’ve asked ah various social agencies to provide support groups
and it’s not there.
DL: Why do you think its not
there?
BS: Because its not politically correct.
DL: Okay.
BS: It
not a hot button issue that people want to support and ah its
pretty tragic I mean there’s ah people will ah you know committing suicide and
there was this girl in
-6-
DL: Right.
BS: and ah you know so, your left with [Tim]
Adams to help these people and
until, until there is some kind of funding and support
and professional people who, who can give this kind of support thats needed then thats what your left with. [Next]
DL: Okay.
BS: So it’s not
[Tim]’s fault, he’s the only guy that’s left.
DL: Right.
BS: Who else can
help?
DL: Right.
Okay. Would you consider letting me
quote you saying that or no or can I just say it? Pardon me?
BS: Yes you can.
DL: Yeah.
BS: You can use my name.
DL: Okay. Oh well thank you.
BS: Yeah.
DL: Okay.
Okay. So thats on the
record. So your saying that the problem is, is there is no support from, from
social groups who haven’t had any funding.
BS: Thats
right.
DL: Okay.
BS: This
is a kitchen table people kind of help, people without
the skills or the knowledge to give proper counselling. You know I mean it’s, its a professional business and your just depending on
basically your neighbour to help you out. [Next]
DL: Okay.
BS: You know.
DL: Okay. So um now one of my concerns is that you
know, you know and this is just different people’s perception
and I don’t think you can ever prove or disprove of it but one of the things
that I’ve been told is that some people feel that
[Tim] Adams doesn’t really particularly care about these
guys, that he’s simply going to the meetings because this is how he can
get business for himself and he’s actually preying on
these people and thats very desperate
and so you know they and they
[DL had only one prior
interviewee; we'll see what he really said,
and that it wasn't attributed to
other "people".
It is possible that Ms. Malenfant
too had made this claim in unrecorded conversation. But her voluminous email
never does so--and since she'd barely met Mr. Adams, citing her on
this would be illegitimate anyway.] [Next]
- 7 -
have not much money and so he charges less than a normal lawyer
charges do you think that’s possible or?
BS: It could be possible. I mean and yet it goes back to ah who’s
providing the support services.
DL: Okay.
BS: And there is no there is no ah you know ah support service
other than what ah ECMAS provides.
DL: Right.
BS: There’s nothing
DL: Right, right okay, okay. Is there anything else about ECMAS
that I should know?
BS: Um, well I think that its still doing some good work trying to get
you know a message out that says laws need to be changed, that ah the children
are suffering as well as not only the father
DL: Yeah.
BS: and is rnostly fathers but ah yeah I
mean there’s a lot of things that ah are just not right ah if ah Anne McLellan would ah would act on the recommendations of the
senate committee and think of the children that would be a big step forward,
but she won’t ask she’s ah delaying and ah and ah people are being hurt because
of it.
DL: Right. Now well was, um Carol Christensen involved with ECMAS
when you were there. ['Carol' is
clearly a mistranscription of 'Ferrel'.]
BS: Yes he was.
DL: Okay, now one of the
things that um that I’ve been that I some people have said to me is that Mr.
Christensen or Carol Christensen is kind of um very very
influential in the organization now.
Would you have described him that way when you were there? [Below,
the former vice president is evidently reacting to Ms. Malenfant's
earlier telephoned accusations to him, making claims that I dominated the group
and hence had dominated him.]
BS: Well, actually my role
was to keep people ah from getting to regressive and Carol was one of the
people that ah we, we often blocked
heads and we often agreed on a lot of things
DL: Right.
BS: and we agreed to disagree
on many things.
DL: Right.
BS: But
ah, Carol’s heart is in the right place. HH00534
-8-
DL: Right, right, okay.
BS: He has his issues and ah
sometimes it just doesn’t mesh with what the issues that are involved with the
custody/access and a divorce/separation and ah so yeah he has been he has been
there oh im gonna say probably since 1994.
DL: Okay. okay.
BS: But he’s never held
office, he’s just paid a membership fee and ah attended meetings.
DL: Okay, okay. lm told he attends like every single meeting. Like, doesn’t
miss one. Pretty committed.
BS: Well, I know he has
missed a few, I mean
DL: Okay. Maybe
their exaggerating a little. Okay. Alright um
well thank you for your time. And now because you have said this is okay for me
to quote you um can I just um get the correct spelling of your name? [This is all the reporter said about
me to this past
leader; when next calling the other one she didn't mention me. In
discovery she said that at this point the story
was just on Mr. Adams--but that claim is contradicted by what
she told her very first interviewee:] [Next]
BS: um Brian, B-R-I-A-N and St. Germaine, S-T G-E-R-M-A-I-N-E.
DL: Okay, okay, so I can identify you as a former ECMAS Edmonton
VP.
BS: Yep.
DL: Okay.
BS: Yeah
and your gonna quote me ah about where im
talking about the lack of funding and the lack of community support.
DL: That’s right. And only there. lm not going to
quote you on the rest.
BS: Okay.
DL: The
rest I’ve made notes but I’ve got you know to decide the part where you are talking about the
lack of funding and there’s no one else to help these
guys, I’ve got I can quote that and that’s it. [So she even broke a
promise to print his words about this.] [Back]
BS: Yeah, okay.
DL: Okay, well um, let me leave you my phone number
incase there you think of something else that you know might be useful
and you could call me collect it’s
416-383-2374.
BS: 2374.
DL: Yeah, and we’re
trying to get this ah to run this Saturday but im not
sure im going to be able to get everyone. I’ve got
sort of a number of people I want to talk to and
9-
a lot of them im just getting their answering machines so were going to
try for Saturday, um but if it's not in Saturday’s then ill try and let you
know ahead of the time when it will be in. [Right after
hearing this intention of the reporter on Wednesday the 21st, former
vice president Brian St. Germaine ('BS' here) reported it to current ECMAS
leaders.] [Back]
BS: Okay, the only thing I would ask of you, don’t make it appear that I am being judgmental of Mr.
Adams.
DL: Okay.
BS: [Tim]
Adams, because I don’t have the
knowledge or anything to be judgmental.
DL: Okay.
BS: Only what I’ve been told by Louis*. [Should
be 'Louise Malenfant']
DL: Right, right. Well I
BS: My only
judgment is that, that’s the only kind of support that is available.
DL: Okay.
BS: And, and if
you end up with *[unsavory] people there it’s pretty
hard to please
the [police that,] you know.
DL: Okay, okay. Um you might be interested in
knowing that I um Mr. Adams when he was disbarred he appealed his disbarment to
the Court of Appeal in Alberta and the three judges hear the Court of Appeal ah
heard the you know his arguments he actually hired Eddie Greenspan to, to
represent him and the appeal judges all three of them um rejected his arguments
um and they wrote a ten page um decision which sort of outlines in, in you know
fair amount of detail what his offence was and why they felt that this was a
serious offence um so you know um it's, it's very much that you know I’ve kind
of checked out all of the ground work and it very very
much is the case that he um you know had a client who was a teenage prostitute,
her boyfriend was in jail, he gets her bail and then he goes and finds her on
the stroll and asks her for sex. Um he likes to say that um they trapped him,
in fact the police saw him talking to her and convinced the girl to wear a wire
and so when she rnet him she was wearing a wire and
that's when he was arrested. But, but
you know he, he’s you know she was sixteen years old and her boyfriend was
still in jail and she really wanted her boyfriend to get out and he was
representing the boyfriend so it’s
pretty unsavoury stuff unfortunately. Yeah.
BS: Yeah, okay.
DL: Any way you have a great day and thank you
for your time.
BS: Okay.
DL: Take care.
BS: Okay, you too. HH00536
- 10 -
DL: B-bye.
BS: Bye now.
END OF INTERVIEW
123202-1.wpd;Nov/1 3/01
HH00537