TELEPHONE INTERVIEW
DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (“DL”) AND
CAROLYN VAN Ee (“CV”)
[As noted elsewhere, Ms.
VanEe is a former president of ECMAS-Edmonton, phoned by the reporter right
after
the former vice president,
Mr. St. Germaine.]
DL: Hi Carolyn, my name is Donna Laframboise.
CV: Hello.
DL: lm a journalist with the National Post.
CV: Great. I’ve read a lot of your writing.
DL: Cool oh cool. Have I caught you at a bad
time?
CV: No not at all.
DL: No? Okay, um im, we’re hoping that you
might have a few minutes to chat with me about ECMAS Edmonton.
CV: Right.
DL: Um, I have the sad duty to, to write a
story about ECMAS which um you know I’ve been familiar with more, with more
with ECMAS Calgary I think than with Edmonton, but you know ECMAS has been a
great organization I’ve always heard the best ‘things about it until very
recently and I am a little concerned about the news that I’ve heard recently
and
CV: Could you just hold for one sec I just got
another call.
DL: No problem.
CV: Hello there.
DL: Hi there.
CV: Hi, I am sorry about that.
DL: No problem.
CV: They have a job coming in and they were
just calling to make sure I am here.
DL: Well do you want me to call you back at
some other time?
CV: Oh no, no that’s fine. Um but I think what I, I may not be able to
help you um maybe as much as somebody else.
DL: Okay.
JJ00538
-2-
CV: Um, I am not the President anymore.
DL: Right.
CV: Um, the, the President of the group is Bob
Bouvier
DL: Yes.
CV: and does this have to do with Vice-Presidencies?
DL: Yeah.
CV: Yeah, and yeah I know I was supposed to
speaking with Mike actually out of
DL: Ah-ha.
CV: They said you know I don’t, I don’t know what the big issue is on this but I know that there is somebody
out there um doesn’t personally like the fellow and um you know they seem to
have you know a personal vendetta um you know kinda stir the pile here a little
bit. [By the time the reporter phoned,
the former president had been told by others about Ms. Malenfant's personal
reasons for stirring up trouble.] [Back]
DL: Right, right.
CV: But um, um do you have Bob’s phone number?
DL: Yes I do, I sort of have this long list of
people who never had anything to do with ECMAS really, not quite but yep. What
is wrong is that irn sort of making my way through um what I why
im calling some
people who, who had an earlier association is because sometimes once you’ve got
some distance frorn an organization sometimes it’s easier to have some
prospective sometimes it’s easier to say things you might not want to say when
you’re still kind of intimately involved in the group
[In calling the former president next, the reporter again
says right off the bat that this is why she's phoning. In the conversation that
follows she is again unsuccessful in getting negative words to print.]
CV: Right.
DL: so
you know so that’s why im sort of calling some older people. [The former president
does not go along with this
request in the interview, then sends an email the next day:] [Next]
CV: Yeah sure, not a problem, yeah I thought
maybe you know because I still get calls from reporters locally and it’s like
um I can’t tell you about the day-to-day.
DL: Right, right.
CV: Well, sure I would be happy to answer any
questions.
DL: Okay. What, what years were you President?
CV: Oh boy, um I was
DL: Sorry. JJ00539
3
CV: im just trying to think, I think from ‘94
right around there till two years ago
DL: Okay so ‘99?
CV: Well yeah, it was it was almost five years
that I was you know directly right in there.
DL: Okay.
CV: Yeah.
DL: Okay. And um can you sort of give me some
like, I really am going to be very careful to make the point that look ECMAS
has this marvellous and honourable history um so can you sort of give me some,
some kind of details of things that you feel ECMAS accomplished when you were
there and you were sort of at the helm guiding it?
CV: Yeah, actually I think a tremendous amount
when, when I started with the group um a fellow named Phil Bouler and another
guy had started um you know ECMAS in Edmonton and um you know my husband, im,
im a second spouse, so my husband was going through all the you know no access,
high maintenance you know blah, blah, blah and um you know it’s just such a
frustrating time, so I you know I went to them mostly for support.
DL: When would that be? What year would that
be?
CV: Um that would have been ‘93 early ‘94.
DL: Okay.
CV: Yeah.
DL: Okay.
CV: And um and yeah I just, I kinda thought to
rnyself you know, you know they were talking about changes need to be made, the
system isn’t fair the way it is um you know, kind of the whole line. And I said you know darn rights and im gonna
see if I can do something about this
because you know not only you know does a divorce affect my husband, his
ex-wife and the kids, it’s the second family, our children I mean just
everybody.
DL: Yeah.
CV: You know and it just goes on down the
line, and um, so I did I, I became involved and you know um at that time we had
just started having some meetings with um you know some Provincial Government
people and very early on um you know I think before I became President there
was a meeting set up with um the Provincial Justice Minister at the time Brian
Evans.
DL: Oh really, okay. JJ00540
-4-
CV: Yep. And um we actually, that’s when we
let people know, you know you always have contact all over the place, people in
Lethbridge and Calgary and such, came up for that and that really got the ball
rolling, that got you know Calgary interested in, in starting an ECMAS group um
you know Lethbridge, Fort McMurray you know there was interest all over.
DL: Right, right.
CV: And um yeah, so I mean that was I guess
the number one thing and, and from that, that helped to open the doors um you
know to working with the Provincial Government
DL: Okay.
CV: Um, you know, and it’s, it’s been a long
road up if you will um you know getting some credibility understanding that
it's not just you know a bunch of angry men ah that don’t want to pay support
you know there are real issues here um you know the lives of children, you know
where they are being alienated from their fathers um you know some aren’t
getting proper support, like there’s, there are all kinds of things to deal with and um you know from that time
we had, we’d bring speakers in you know
DL: Right.
CV: have public forums and that kind of thing.
We were able to get our group involved um you know again Provincially in
DL: Law day?
CV: Law day once a year ah the Court House has
you know basically it’s kind of a lawyers bring their families down show them
their stuff, let people have access to the Court House you know on not a scary
basis.
DL: Right.
CV: And lets them know you know they’ve got
all the different agencies, support groups and community agencies that assist
with court and police and that kind of thing they set up booths and that there,
and so we finally you know were able to be a part of that as well.
DL: Oh cool. So in what way? Would you have
your own booth?
CV: We, we had a table set up with information
about our organization and what help might be out there, you know, we were um
helping to support the ah parenting after separation course.
DL: Oh wow, okay.
JJ00541
-5-
CV: Yeah, um I mean and, and you know back
with that too, um Madam Justice * you
know the big promoter of that you know way back when I, I personally too sat
down and met with her um you know talking about these issues and stuff, you
know trying to you know we’ve tried to really um contact everybody you know,
getting different perspectives, what can we do as a group, you know um to affect
some positive change.
DL: Right.
CV: And then, and then of course you know when
times gone on, um dealing with Ottawa, you know and the * senate committees, um you know, first of all
too you know with the maintenance committee and then on from that and also in
Alberta just you know recently the group has been working ah more closely with
Maintenance Enforcement and um helping to get people understanding how that
system works and that it’s not as you know for the longest time, particularly
for men to phone in, you know they truly felt like criminals, um you know being
dealt with there, and so that situation is slowly you know evolving and
changing and that as well. You know and we’ve continued you know Provincially
and Federally as well to try and you know be working with the government,
working on legislation, we did finally get not the bill that we wanted here in
Alberta on access enforcement you know but a start to it.
DL: Okay.
CV: Yeah.
DL: Okay. So what would you have changed with
the bill?
CV: From what it is now?
DL: Yeah.
CV: It, it still it doesn’t have a lot of
teeth
DL: Okay.
CV: but as with anything you have to start
somewhere.
DL: Yeah.
CV: You know, um you know, we’ve got to give
it a try see if it’s working and ah you know
it’s because there still really wasn’t any um any big penalty for you know
actually um denying the access, um you know, as always it’s just such a long
process even with that and um but you know, and I don’t actually, because I
haven’t been involved as much since that bills come into place I don’t know if
it’s effective or not.
DL: Okay. JJ00542
-6-
CV: Yeah.
DL: Okay. So your actually having a life again
and not, not bleeding and breathing all these terrible horror stories.
CV: But, yeah, that’s pretty much it, you know
I, I try and keep ah connected
DL: Right.
CV: With, with the group and stuff but I just
you know really didn’t have the energy for the ah you know continual lobbying
and that kind of thing although like with the Federal elections um you know I
was out there again because I don’t agree with what Anne McLellan has done with
the you know Federally and so worked to get some information out there on how,
how you know, she’s been stalling you know in the election and that but ah
again otherwise it’s been, I’ve been kind of quiet.
DL: Right.
CV: Just in the background observing
DL: Right Okay, well as, as you’ve probably
heard, last week ECMAS Edmonton had their elections and the gentleman who was
elected as the Vice-President, um his name is [Tim] Adams
CV: Yep.
DL: and um he has um a rather unsavoury past I
think, is a probably the best way to put
it. I um he was disbarred as a lawyer and he, when the Law
Society disbarred him he appealed the disbarment and he hired Eddie Greenspan
to make, argue his case. Um they went to the Alberta Court of Appeal and three
judges heard the arguments and rejected them. And you and I both know that um
judges don’t always make these sensible decisions, but um in my view, ah after
reading their ten page ruling in this case, um I think they made a just
decision. Um I don’t know if what Im telling you is news but let me tell you
what I know because, because you know
CV: Yeah irn still actually in dark on the
exact details.
DL: Well, what, what happened was he was
practising as a lawyer, he had a client who was a sixteen year old prostitute
and he um was also representing her
boyfriend who was in jail. He gets her bail but the boyfriend is still in jail
and she’s concerned that he do what he can to get the boyfriend out and he um
goes looking for her on the track and propositions her and as it so happens the
police notice him doing this and so they talk to the girl and ask her to wear a
wire and so he propositions her again, she goes with him to a motel room and um
that’s when the police arrested him. So and he played [pled]
guilty. Um and it’s not the first time he’s, he’s had a conviction for hiring a
prostitute. Okay it does not appear that the other conviction involved an
underage person but it's not the first time. So this is, this is the man’s
history, um and he is, I am told by, by you know people that I have interviewed
so
-7-
far who are going to ECMAS meetings at the moment, that he
is um you know peoples um, support group meetings there advice oh why don’t you
talk to [Tim] he’s, he’s a lawyer he knows about this and im told that he gives
out his cards at the meetings and that he charges people money and he’s giving
them legal advice.
CV: Oh no I wasn’t aware of that.
DL: The problem from my perspective, from my
perspective is that these guys, usually guys, fathers not always but usually
fathers who are coming to these support group, have enough trouble in their
lives. They do not need to be associated
with someone like ************* they are not being warned, they are not being
rationally informed *** about whether they want him to ****** they are going to ECMAS for help, you
know they don’t know who to trust and ECMAS is saying oh you know go talk to
this guy, he’ll help you. Um you know and some people
have, have gone as far as to suggest to me that they do not believe that this man, Mr. Adams,
is particularly interested
in fathers rights at all but that he needs to make a living and that
he’s just going there so he can make money off of these guys. [As the next hyperlink shows, this version didn't distort what the sole accuser said. But here the reporter says that
"people" made this accusation to
her--a change that makes her pluralizing even more suspect.] [Back]
CV: Yeah though is that not illegal to kind of
represent yourself as a lawyer when you are not?
DL: Well yeah I think so, you know im sort of
thats one of the avenues im sort of looking at with this story and he’s giving
out a card, that’s a card im told, although im still waiting for someone to
photocopy it and send me it, the card im told you know has all his legal
credentials on it um which is yeah im still waiting to hear from the Law
Society whether your allowed to do that or not.
CV: No, im pretty sure your not, my sisters a
lawyer and um, yeah.
DL: Yeah so, you know if he was just someone
who is hanging around at ECMAS which has been the case for a number of years
CV: Yeah we had that as well, yep.
DL: you know that might not be so bad, but
he’s now an official, he is an elected official, he is a spokes person for the
group with this unsavoury past and unfortunately that doesn’t look very good. So um you know what im looking
for is, is, is you know your reaction. Are you concerned about this? Do you
think this is bad for the non- custodial parents community? Do you think you
know that, that this is a mistake, the election was a mistake? Or you know do
you think it's no ones business?
CV: Well, you know, I guess it if that's kind
of a tough question to answer in that I myself just found out about this.
DL: Right, right, right. And im sorry to kind
of put you in a awkward spot.
CV: Yeah, and ah you know on the surface, um I
guess if, in a sense if he’s done a crime um been convicted blah, blah, blah um
cause he is a non-custodial father as well from what I understand. JJ00544
-8-
DL: Okay.
CV: And did have some issues as well in that’s
why he came to begin with.
DL: Okay.
CV: Um and the rest of it, I, I think
everybody has some kind of baggage um you know and that is the problem with
volunteer organizations, you don’t know the details of everybody’s story, your
only getting what, what they tell you.
DL: Right.
CV: So I don’t know um you know everybody’s
credentials sort of thing. Um you know and nobody within the group does, I
guess, um but if he is at present representing himself as a lawyer or giving
legal advice, because that was something we were always, myself very open about
telling people, you know we're not lawyers this is how we interpret the law,
you know this has happened in this case or blah, blah, blah um but that you do
need a lawyer or you represent yourself. And you know, educate yourself and,
and that was the biggest part of it was you know, here’s the information um you
know, do what you can with it.
DL: Right.
CV: And that was you know I guess a big part
of it is providing information to people.
DL: Right.
CV: But, that um that was always I guess kind
of a disclaimer because well not a disclaimer but you know to let people know
no we’re not lawyers. Cause I would be asked that - are you a lawyer - well no
im sure not.
DL: Right, right.
CV: Okay um I think it's really unfortunate
that um you know, like ECMAS has worked really hard over the years to get a
reputation, a good one, you know that they’re not a bunch of goof balls out
there, um you know trying to make you know positive changes for everybody and,
and this is a negative and um
DL: Right.
CV: and that’s, you know, I don’t know if it
needs to be an issue but I guess it is.
DL: Right.
CV: You know. And it will be for some people. And I, I just know from conversations just in
the last two days, there’s um, there’s a third party involved that doesn’t like
him and um wasn’t happy with the results of, of the election at the ECMAS
meeting
DL: Okay. JJ00545
-9-
CV: and
seems to be wanting to make um an issue out of this.
DL: Okay.
CV: You
know, and maybe it should be, you know, like I say I don’t know, but I, I think
there’s somebody there trying to get some personal gain or, or revenge or
something.
DL: Okay, okay, so, so do you, when you say
maybe it should be your not sure if it should be? Like would you want an
organization that you belong to, to have someone with that kind of past have
someone in a spokesperson role? I wouldn’t.
CV: No, like you say, I didn’t know all the
details, I you know didn’t even know [Tim]’s name until two days ago, you know.
DL: Okay.
CV: Um, and um yeah well it just it doesn’t
make it good for everybody and if you know we never you know because to we, we
would get people sometimes um with really strange ideas and you know people
would come to rne and say well blah, blah, blah they were showing up at the
meetings and I said you know you can’t prevent them from being a member but if
they are a spokesperson,like I was always again careful with that that this, we
had goals and objectives and, and the rest of it and that was what we followed,
you know we set those out,these are the guiding principles of this organization
um that’s what we are here for and you know that’s what your to be following if
you want to be part of it sort of thing.
DL: Right.
CV: You know.
DL: Right. Okay.
CV: So yeah, it, it’s unfortunate and I hope,
hope it will be rectified you know without I guess doing a lot of damage to
ECMAS and the volunteers that have worked so hard, um to do good work.
DL: Right.
CV: You know.
DL: How, how would you envision it being
rectified, like you, you knowthe organization, you know the structure is there
any way that um, you know like unfortunately, you know this is news, if um, you
know if the Red Cross elected someone as a Vice- President who had this kind of
background it would be news. It’s news that ECMAS has done it. And you know so
the question is what's, you know, when, when, when everyone becomes aware of it
what’s going to happen. What do you anticipate could be some of the options? JJ00546
- 10-
CV: Well, I would think possibly or probably
and I think that it’s already in the works is
asking [Tim] to step down
DL: Right.
CV: I, I think that’s being *[put forward] to him. You know because of the
implications of it um you know or at least letting him know that um you this
isn’t the kind of thing that you can do. You have to be upfront with people. Um
my understanding is that
he had, had been letting people know, you know that he was disbarred and you
know and gave a few of the details of the whole situation
DL: Right.
CV: Um, but um you know I suppose somebody new
coming in might not be aware of that and, and that’s not a good thing.
DL: Right.
CV: But ah you know and I would hope that he
would see thatfor the greater good of the organization that, that might be the
best option. I don’t you know its kinda hard to say cause I don’t know him
DL: Right.
CV: and I haven’t been actively involved um
that you know just kind of um from the outside ah you know that may, may help.
DL: Right, right, now one of the things
unfortunately is that you know lets now use my example of the Red Cross, is if
I found out that the Red Cross had just elected someone like that as their
Vice-President, you know, I would say, well this past out on the judgment of
the rest of the people in the organization that they let this guy stand for
election and that they did not create a fuss about it, that, that suggests to
me that their judgment is flawed and unfortunately, if I think someone’s judgment is flawed it’s much more difficult for them
to make a case to me that you know they need more blood or um you know that the
implications are broader than oh we just elected the wrong person. Um can you
give me anything about the organization which suggests that most of the time
they exercise good judgment? Is this something that you would expect to
normally happen in ECMAS.
CV: Well, I mean not when I was there. Um you
know, its um I guess the biggest difficulty with ECMAS whether Edmonton or
Calgary there’s lots of groups out there feeling the same frustration with the
system but again you dealing with volunteer people that are in personal for the
most part really great personal turmoil
DL: Yeah.
CV: their lives are um many of them are on the
verge of bankruptcies because of their divorces um you know emotionally you
know we’ve had you know some members
JJ00547
-11-
that a um well people commit suicide over, over this
particular issue, that's a fact.
DL: Yeah.
CV: So um you know if, it is difficult dealing with this issue when
their own personal lives are in such upheaval. You know, um you know, I don’t think
im being very clear in answering you.
DL: Well I’ve sort of just sprung this on you
so fair enough, um you know, im sorry to do that and in fairness if you wanted
to sort of think about it and you know call me back or send me an email
tomorrow for example, when you’ve had a little more time to you know kind of
you know think of a more coherent response, I think that would be okay. You
know and maybe not, maybe you want to get on with your life and not worry about
this. But let me leave you my phone number.
CV: Sure.
DL: It’s 416-383-2374 and my email address, do you have an email?
CV: Yes I do.
DL: Okay so it’s just my first initial D for Donna followed
immediately by my last name which is
CV: L-.A-M?
DL: No L-A-F-R-A-M-B-OISE at national post which is one word dot
com. So um I have to leave the office
in about fifty minutes today but I will be in all day tomorrow.
CV: Oh, okay.
DL: And you could call me collect if you wanted to chat or you know
if you have any other thoughts on it and you’ve been very generous with your
time.
CV: Alright thanks Donna.
DL: Thank you, oh actually let me just get the spelling of your
name.
CV: Oh okay. It’s Carolyn - C-A-R-O-L-Y-N
DL: C-A-R-O-L-Y-N okay.
CV: and the last name is Van Ee. Big e little an, big e little e.
DL: Capital e, e. Perfect.
CV: Okay.
DL:
Thank you so much. JJ00548
- 12 -
CV: Alright then.
DL: Have a great day.
CV: Okay.
DL: Bye.
CV: Bye.
END OF INTERVIEW
l24121-1.wpd;Nov/13/0l
JJ00549