DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (ďDLĒ) AND "Source A" (ďSAĒ)
[For reasons explained elsewhere, the names of the reporter's four interviewees unnamed in the two articles have been† replaced, in this publicized version of the lawsuit documents, with descriptors and initials (as seen above). In all other ways, this version's wording remains as in the original lawsuit document.--FC]
SA:†††† --------------_What can I do for you?
DL:††††† Well, um, I donít know if Louise
----------------, she may not have.
But, I am Ė have the unwelcome task of writing a little story about
DL:††††† Um, and, um, its not something that Iím happy to be doing, but itís something that I think is important to do.
DL:††††† And, so, um, I know that, that people Ė some people are very concerned about being quoted in the media, but I was hoping that perhaps you might chat with me about what youíve seen going on there and, you know, then maybe we could talk about whether you feel comfortable with me quoting you saying any of it or not.
SA:†††† Sure. Um, I - I even told this to Louise earlier last week. Um, I'm not sure if I want to
†††††††††† use my name.
SA:††††† Um, only because Iím still part of it.
DL:††††† Okay. Youíre still part of ECMAS.
SA:††††† Well, Iím Ė Iím Ė Iím a committee chair.
SA:††††† So, Iím right involved with it big time. I have been for the last year.
DL:††††† Okay.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††† [Next]†††††††††††††††††††††††††
SA:††††† I just ran for president.
SA:††††† So, I donít know if you knew that.
SA:††††† I ran for president last Ė last week.
DL:††††† Oh, right.
SA:††††† It was our AGM and Iíve been trying to get this Ėthe whole committee itself, or, you know, all of ECMAS organized.
SA:††††† And so I thought that would be a good way of doing that is running for president.
DL:††††† Right. Makes sense to me.
SA:††††† Yeah, exactly. But just because I thought things are moving slowly. Now, Louise has a whole different view of ECMAS than I do because, of course, Iíve been involved with them for a year and Louise hasnít.
DL:††††† Okay. So why donít you tell me Ė why donít we start there. Why donít you tell me about what your view is.
SA:††††† Well, I Ė I Ė I think, I think as a whole, I think the group is a good group.
SA:††††† Itís a good organization. The ideal and finally Ė this is so funny. The last year these guys have been trying to nail down society by-laws..
SA:††††† Okay? And on the initiative of my girlfriend and myself, [girlfriend], who Iím sure Louise gave you her name and number, too.
SA:††††† Sheís also co-chair on the PR committee. We finally convinced the rest of the Board members to come over to her house just a couple of weeks ago
DL ††††† Uh-huh.
SA: †††† and fill out the Society by-laws. Or finish Ė finalize them. Right?
SA:††††† So, the best part about this is Ferrel Christensen, who Iím still trying to figure out and establish whether heís a member or what Ė Iím not sure Ė heís donated money to ECMAS or just because heís been around helping and bringing people in Ėwhy he has some kind of Board stature, but heís not on the Board, I mean, he doesnítĖ he not a Ė you know, he wasnít voted in as any committee chair or president or secretary. Heís just always at a Board meeting.
[SA has confused the monthly member-meetings, where Board votes sometimes occur, with Board meetings]
DL:††††† Okay. So, youíve been involved for a year.
DL:††††† How many meetings have you gone to in a year?
SA:††††† Uh, well, thereís one every month and Iíve probably missed three.
DL:††††† Okay. So youíve gone to nine out of the last 12 meetings.
SA: †††† Oh, you betcha.
DL:††††† Okay, now what about Ė do they have weekly meetings or such
SA: †††† Monthly.
DL:††††† Monthly meetings. Okay.
SA: †††† Monthly meetings.
DL:††††† Nine out of 12 monthly meetings. Now at all nine of those meetings has Mr.
SA:††††† The president has been there maybe four times.
DL:††††† Okay. But, Mr. Christensen, has he always been there?
SA:††††† Oh, every time.
DL:††††† Every time.
SA: †††† He doesnít miss a meeting.
SA: †††† He doesnít miss a ECMAS meeting or a support group meeting.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
SA: †††† Which is a little confusing to me, but, whatever.
SA:††††† I mean, I know Louise, how pissed off she is with Ferrel.
SA:††††† So, and I know, you know, she probably has good right. I havenít seen the e-mails heís c-mailed to her, but, I donít Ė I mean, I going to Ė my opinion on Ferrel is heís a little weird.
SA: †††† I donít know if youíve met him.
DL:††††† Um, Iíve Ė l
SA:††††† You must have met him.
DL:††††† I have not met him.
SA: †††† No?
DL:††††† We have corresponded a bit.
SA:††††† I mean, heís genuinely, I think heís a nice guy. Iím not really too sure about his agenda or what heís about. But,
SA:††††† heís very opinionated. And, and, so be it. You know, heís an old professor from the University and, you know, Iím a young guy. Iím like 33 and Iíve got new age views and what have you. And, heís just sort of one of those old fuddy-duddy stubborn people and heís been in this whole business of fighting for gender bias rights and for gender rights and equality for many, many years.
SA:††††† Like before I was born, he always says to me.
SA:††††† Urn, so, I always laugh at that. And, but, on this Ė on the same token, heís just formed his opinions of certain people, you know, of stuffĖweíre talking Ė Iím talking psychologists or whatever. ĎCause, you know, he comes to the support groups and, Iím telling you a lot of information -------------------, are you recording this?
DL:††††† Um, Iím taking some notes. Would you mind if I turn my tape recorder on.
SA:††††† No.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Next]
SA:††††† Go right ahead, Iím a big talker, you know.
SA:††††† You must have to do that with Louise.
DL:††††† Yeah, sometimes, Well, actually, yeah, sometimes, I turn on my tape recorder, but I just absorb it like a sponge some days.
SA: __---------------. Well, anyways, Ferrel comes to the support group meetings.
DL:††††† Okay. So the support group meetings are different from the monthly meetings.
SA:††††† Yeah. You didnít know that?
DL:††††† Well, I'm just trying to make sure I'm not confused. So, support group meetings happen how often?
SA:††††† Once a week,
DL:††††† Okay. Now how many of those have you been to in the last year?
SA:††††† Man. Well, whatís four times Ė wow.
DL:††††† Thereís 52 weeks in a year.
SA:††††† 52, yeah. So, oh, geez, I say roughly many 40.
DL:††††† Okay. So 40 in the last year and was Ferrel Christensen at all
SA:††††† Every one.
DL:††††† Every one _______
SA:††††† He does miss one.††††† [Mistranscription--should be 'doesn't'.]
DL:††††† Okay. So he doesnít miss the monthly meetings and he doesnít miss the weekly meetings either.
SA:††††† Yeah. Weekly meetings are the support group meetings.
DL:††††† Okay.††††††††† [Next]††††††††
SA:††††† Now the support group meetings are where everything happens
SA:† †††Because its the one thatís most widely advertised on the ECMAS menís support
line Ė or menís help line.
SA:††††† Um, so if you phone the help line and say, you know, Iím a single parent Ė now I donít want to, you know, gender this to men only.
DL:††††† Yeah. Yeah.
SA:††††† If youíre just a parent thatís going through that kind of problem.
SA:††††† I mean, itís highly unlikely a lot of women call the menís help line,
SA:††††† but you never know. Uh, if you call that line theyíre going to say, well, there is a ECMAS support group which is called Ė you know, they call it the menís support group or the non-custodial parent support group. You can comedown and itís every Tuesday night and itís in Bonnie Doon Mall and
DL:††††† Sorry, where? Which mall? Sorry.
SA:†††††† Bonnie Doon.
DL:††††† Bonnie Doon?
SA:††††† Yeah. Bonnie Doon Mall. And itís, geez, I donít have the exact address.
DL:††††† No, no, itís just Ė so is it like in an empty store or something.
SA:††††† No, no, sorry. Its Ė thereís a medical centre on the west side of the building.
SA:††††† And thereís offices up there.
SA:††††† So theyíveĖ itís right close toĖthereís a Capital Health thing down the hallway and stuff and they rent us that space.
SA:††††† Or they give it to us for free or something.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
SA:††††† We donít pay for it I donít think.
SA:††††† So, itís, yeah, itís really nice. Theyíve donated it for the last two years, I think.
DL:††††† So Tuesdays. And what times are the support group.
DL:††††† 7:00 til when?
DL:††††† 7:00 til 9:00. Okay.
SA:††††† Yeah, Itís a really good thing. Thatís what Ė how I started into this. You know, I went through my own baffle which one day Iím going to try and Ė Iíll try and get you to write my story.
SA:††††† But, thatíll be another thing. But, when Ė you know, after I went Ė I was going through it for a year and doing a lot of research and finding out about, you know, the whole situation, Ďcause Iíd never been in it before. Um, I decided I gotta search something out and find out whatís going on and I found out about this menís support group meeting.
SA:††††† And, you know, one month - one and a half months into it, I was chairing the meeting. So, or at least co-chairing it with Jiggs, which is another part of ECMAS that Iím involved in. I Ė I pretty basically sit on the end of the table at the support group meetings and I offer my advice and opinions and whatever along with the other co-chair, James, and [Though puffing up his role in the group--the sole leader (James, or "Jiggs") sometimes let him chair the meeting--this informant ("Source A") did indeed speak out often and very freely in all sessions. Enough so, the reporter knew from these and other words here, that he was in a position to have easily mentioned [Tim] Adams' disbarment in meetings, had he really felt that it should be done.[Back]
DL:††††† So, how Ė how many people come to these meetings?
SA:††††† Well, thereís at least Ė last night there was Ė last night there was another meeting. I would say Ė it depends. You know, anywhere from 12 people to 40.
DL:††††† 12 to 40. Okay.
SA:††††† Yeah. Its Ė itís Ė you know, itís an open
SA:††††† support group meeting. Sometimes we have a lot of Ė we have a Ė I think I see about four or five guys that they always come back
SA:††††† just because of the group and they like to come listen and offer their opinions and talk and have coffee and, I think, just to be around a bunch of other guys. Right?
DL:††††† Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
SA:††††† For the night. Excuse me. Uh, I would say in the last three months, four months Iíve seen at least 30 people in that room.
DL:††††† Every day? Every time?
SA:††††† Yeah. 25 to 30 people. Itís amazing.
DL:††††† Okay. So when you first started going to the support group, what Ė what were you getting out of it? What were you going?
SA:††††† Um, well, like I said
DL:††††† I just want Ė tell me in your own words.
SA:††††† I did it Ė I had already gone through one year of battling in court on my own case.
SA:††††† Uh, on my own. Right? ĎCause Iíve always fought on my own. Um, but I thought
Ė now, my first initial thing was to find out where I could go from here in my case. What I could do to change the insane laws I was facing.
SA:††††† So, my whole idea of finding a group and finding any kind of menís stuff, was to become organized and, you know, start a revolution. Thatís was my
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
SA:††††† So I came into the support group and reaIized what it was and thought, well, I can stay to this because emotionally Iíve detached myself with my case. So, Iím not Ė Iím not, you know, distraught like a lot of those guys that come in there.
SA:††††† Theyíre, you know, they are beaten up. They are beaten up so bad, you know, I have to sit, like, I have to sit and sometimes in my own heart and whatever I have to fight back tears, because IĖthese guys are readyĖthereís some guys Iíve seen
walk in there ready to put a bullet in their head. And thatís Ė you can quote me on that. Iíve seen it. And itís Ė it is Ė itís shocking. Because I lived it every day for two and a half years.
SA:††††† But I've just shut off my emotion. l just know where my battle is and I know what the laws are, so Iím just going to get through this. And a lot of those guys do that, too, but they just donít have the energy or the spunk to keep Ė to fight. You know, they come to the support groups just to get some advice on what they should talk to about theirĖyou know, whether theyíre lawyerís given them the runaround, or, you know, what they should do about their ex whoís restricting their access or, you know, all kinds of little situations.†† Um, sometimes they have new guys that come in and they donít know what to do with, you know, their ex just said, get out, and they locked the doors, changed the locks and the cops said they canít go back, and they donít know what to do. And, itís Ė sheís given them divorce papers or something.† And, vice versa. Iíve had women into the group that say the same thing. And so, we, you know, we say, well, you know, you tell them they can get Ė they can guess out some lawyers. Thereís a lawyer referral program. Or they can get some advice. Or, you know, all these sort of things. †Thereís all kinds of different options for these people. So, thatís what this Ė Iím offering the group myself
SA:††††† Because I Ė Iíve Ė Iíve researched it enough. Iíve gone through a lot of it and Iíve
Ė I sort of know. You know, at the very beginning we have a little spiel that we say that, you know, weíre not legal Ė weíre not giving legal advice and itís a support group and we ask that everyone refrain from making sweeping general statements and to, you know, direct their questions to the chair of the meeting. Itís quite an organized meeting actually. I mean, sometimes it gets a little out of hand. You know, youíve got a lot of angry people in that room talking,[Here he tells the reporter of the disclaimer that
our group wasn't giving professional "legal advice". But it is also clear from his words above that it was giving
information and lay advice about problems in the legal system--and clear that this informant about the second-
support-group episode was himself doing so, convinced he had enough legal knowledge.]††††† †[Next] †
SA:††††† so you have to. You know, like somebody will pipe up and say something silly like, you know, just some guy and say I know somebody who can do somebody in for $3,000. And, I go, okay, you can keep those comments to yourself.
SA:††††† We donít want to talk about stuff like that here. And, you know, so, I like to be there for that situation. But Ferrel is always at those meetings. And he always has an opinion of specific assessors like [name redacted]. Iím going to quote those. Because I donít really know this [name redacted], but, and Iíve never - but Iíve read some stuff that heís Ė he seems to be fairly decent. But then Iíve heard lots of things where a lot of guys have had bad luck with assessments from him. And I could go on about that side of things, too. But, whatever.† Anyways, um, all and all, I really donít know why Ferrel was there. Except to collect information and probably
phone numbers from all the new guys that come in. I mean, Louise and I have had this conversation many times. And I Ė I just donít Ė Iím not really sure what his angle is yet. But he seems to be involved with everything. And for what reason, I donít know.
DL:††††† Okay, now, I donít want you to agree to something that you donít have a clear memory of, so, you know, if you donít remember, you just tell me you donít remember.
DL:††††† But, Louise seems to remember an occasion
at a support meeting
in the last few months in which
she suggested, or someone
suggested that maybe the support meetings should be broken up into two. Because
they were sort of getting big and not everyone was having a chance to speak
[So the reporter herself knew about the chronic lack of
time.] [Back]††††† ††††††††††
and so someone made the suggestion that maybe the meetings could be broken up into two. And, you know, Iím not clear whether it was two different days or just two different rooms on the same day and, she says that Ė that Ferrel Christensen opposed that on the basis that [Surveying the†
interview prior to this point reveals that she asked SA this before ever mentioning Mr. Adams to him.] [Back]
SA:††††† Sheís told you everything, eh?
DL:††††† that Ė well, but, you know, I always
SA:††††† That was my suggestion
DL:††††† triple check.
SA:††††† you realize that.
DL:††††† Oh, okay. Okay. Well, tell me about it. Then you tell me what happened.
SA:††††† Well, I Ė [girlfriend], who is Ė Iíve already spoke of her, right? Have you talked to her yet?
DL:††††† No. No. Youíre the first person Iíve called.
SA:††††† Okay. Well, [girlfriend] is my girlfriend and she came to the group afterĖ Iíll give you just a quick rundown on her.
SA:††††† Sheís a divorced mom, too.
SA:††††† Or going through a divorce. And sheís got a five-year-old daughter and her and her husband are civil.
- 11 -
SA:††††† They work it out. And itís great. Um, but I met her because I went to a rally at one
†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† of the townhall
meetings with Anne McLeIlan.
SA:††††† And I went to that meeting. It was downtown somewhere on 121 Street. I went to the townhall meeting and [girlfriend]ís mother was at this meeting holding a sign for pro- life or something. I didnít really know what it was about. I didnít read her sign. But she was standing off to the side in the building with this sign. Just standing against the wall. And the speaker of this townhall meeting was telling her she had to leave because she had this sign on her neck. And weíre talking a townhall meeting with the whole community there. Right? Everyoneís in suits, ties, kids, whatever.† Itís just packed. And this guyís making a stink before heís going to start the townhall meeting with Anne McLeIlan and the rest of the constituents, heís going to kick this lady out. And I donít know her from Ė you know, I donít know her at all. And Iím sifting there in my suit and tie with my son. I had him that Wednesday Ė it was a Wednesday night. And, can you hand on one second?
DL:††††† Yeah, no problem.
conversation off phone
SA:††††† Hi. Iím on the phone so Iím going to be a bit.
?:††††††† Okay. Iíll see you.
SA:†††† Okay. Thanks . Okay.
?:†††† †††Donít worry about it. Iíll talk to you later.
SA:††††† Okay. Are you okay? Okay. Good. Thanks _________.] returns to phone Okay, sorry about that.
DL:††††† No problem.
SA:††††† Um, so, anyways, this guy is going to kick her out. And Iím writing on a piece of paper in my binder that Iím Ė questions that Iím going to ask Anne McLelIan about shared parenting and stuff Ďcause Iím, you know, Iím on the bandwagon. So Iím sitting there and my sonís playing with another one of my friendís kids. And we're all just sitting there. And this guy gets up and he says heís going to remove this lady. And he goes to remove her and as heís walking Iím thinking, Iím writing in my book and Iím thinking, you know, no oneís doing anything. Heís already Ė the speakerís already asked a couple of plainclothes policemen that were at the meeting to remove her. They said no. People are yelling, you know, leave her alone. Itís a free country, you know, that kind of thing. And he gets up to remove her himself.
DL:††††† So who is this person?
SA:††††† Oh, IĖyou know, I
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
SA:††††† I wish I knew. Heís a dark man. Heís a
DL:††††† Doesnít matter. I just thought maybe he was one of the people that I was asking you about.
SA:††††† No, no, heís not. Sorry, this is so off topic, but I just wanted to quickly tell you this. And so he gets up to remove her and Iím Ė Iím saying, if he gets to this lady Iím going to have to do something about this. ĎCause, you know, Iím thinking, letís get on with the townhall meeting and stop this bullshit about trying to kick some lady out with a sign. So anyways, he gets up and he gets about 10 feet from her and I stand up in front of him. And I look Ė I turn myĖI look right at him and I say, youíre going to have to go through me first to kick her out. Then I turned my back to him and I just faced this lady.
SA:††††† And he tries to go around me and Iím just Ė Iím being calm, you know. Not threatening. Iíve got my back to him. The next thing you know six other guys from the crowd stand up and stand around this lady and this guyís not getting anywhere with anybody, so, and then people are yelling, you know, free speech, free country, go sit down, start the meeting.
SA:††††† Oh, it was just crazy. It was great. Finally he went back and sat down and started the meeting and this lady got to stay. Well, she was ecstatic and she, you know, I told her about our meetings at the support group and so she started coming. And then she brought her daughter who was going through this divorce.
SA:††††† And so thatís how I met her. So
DL:††††† Oh, cool.
SA:††††† thereís the story. Very cool story. Very great. And sheís an awesome lady. And sheís helped Ė sheís right on the bandwagon with me about the shared parenting and all that stuff.
SA:††††† And Iím sure one day weíll meet.
DL:††††† Okay. Now to get back to the
SA:††††† Lets get back to this.
DL:††††† proposal to split the two support meetings.
SA:††††† So [girlfriend] and I go to St. Albert Parents Place, is what itís called, to inquire about some, you know, some information, on, you know, St. Albert statistics of men that came through there. They have little programs far families and whatever. And they offer us this space that we can actually use to have meetings.
SA:††††† Or whatever we want to do with it.
SA:††††† And Iím like, oh, this is awesome, you know. Theyíve got an on-staff daycare and, geez, we could have meeting whenever, right? So, and they want us to participate in the bingos. It was a great meeting and she said thereís a lot to offer there Ė videos Ė and Iím thinking this is amazing for single parents.
SA:††††† And so Ė and which it is. I mean, whether itís going to be six, five people getting together or a hundred, it was a great big space.
SA:††††† And we need to expand this support group. Itís that simple. I mean, oneís ----, thereís a lot of people that are on Ė live on the north side here and then this one's way on the south side in Bonnie Doon. So, it would just be smart to have one, whether it worked or not, we didnít know. Just a test run.
SA:††††† So I bring this up at one of the general meetings.
DL:††††† Rather than a support group meeting?
SA:††††† It was at the general meeting.
SA: †††† And thatís where this suggestion was made. Not at the support group meeting.
SA:††††† So Iím at the general meeting. [girlfriend]ís there and, you know, our presidentís there, and, you know, the whole board members are there. Couple of other members that have came to the meetings. Not very many people, okay. Weíre talking 12 people, 13 people. And Ferrelís there, of course. And [Tim] Adams.† And Jiggs.† Jiggs who is another Ė heís the one who started this support group meeting.
[As the minutes for February show, Mr. Adams was not present--and "SA" has the month wrong.]
SA:††††† A year before I even came.
SA:††††† And, okay, so I go and I sort of brought this up to Jiggs on, you know, before the meeting and mentioned it to him and said do you mind if I, you know, think about mentioning this. And, you know, in all honesty, now that I have to Ė I have to retrace my steps. Because I think I did mention it at one of the support group meetings, but very lightly. Like, just, I didnít make it Ė it wasnít a vote. It was nothing.† It was just sort of Ė I said .Jiggs Ė and I donít even know if I brought it up in front of all these other guys. I think I just mentioned it to ..Jiggs and I said, at the next general meeting Iím going Ė Iím going to ask about it and weíll vote on I guess or whatever.
SA:††††† Yeah, right on. Okay. Letís do that. Because .Jiggs was into that. Because when we get 35 or 30 to 35 people in that room, thereís not enough room.
SA:††††† In the one that we have right now. And so ftís Ė we just thought, letís have another one on a different night and if some people who couldnít make it or some people thought it was easier that night, they would go to this other one. And weíd just sort of split it up and it would just help alleviate big messes of people, right?
DL:††††† Yeah. Yeah.
SA:††††† Um, so, right on. Jiggs and I were thinking about doing this. Jiggs meaning James. Heís the one who started Ė who started the support group.
DL:††††† So when was Ė when was the date of this general meeting when you raised it? Do you remember? A month ago? Three months ago? Before Christmas?
SA: †††† Three months ago. Yeah, definitely, about three months ago.
DL:††††† Before Christmas?
SA:††††† Uh, oh, Iíd have to check with [the
DL:††††† No, no. Just approximately.
SA:††††† Well, I think it was, geez, I think it was
Ė had to be January.
SA:††††† Right after Christmas.
SA:††††† In the second week of January.
SA:††††† Thatís when they are.
SA:††††† So the second week, Monday night, in January, weíre having the general meeting. And I brought this up. Brought, you know, showed them the pamphlets and told them all about the opportunity of, you know, we could actually, as a group, we could actually help with Ė thereís a lot of societies in there that are already working with Parents Place. Like the United Way and theyíre sponsored by the United Way and a bunch of other people. And I said, hey, I had a little presentation. Showed them this, you know, just a little speech about it. And showed them a booklet and said, and this is to the board members, and I said, Jiggs and I have discussed this and thought, you know, we would like to have this other thing - this other support group. We donít really know whether it will run one day or on a Saturday, weíre not sure. We havenít figured out that. Or whether itíd be two months or twice a month or every week. Weíre not sure. We just want to test it out. And so the vote was Ė the vote that came to be was that would it be okay for Jiggs and ["SA"] to start another support group for the next six or eight weeks and test it out.
SA:††††† And everyone voted in favour except Ferrel. Ferrel was extreme Ė and, Iím just saying what I remember him saying, I am extremely opposed against this. This is before we voted. He said, this will be horrible. Itís not a good idea. We canít have some other support group meeting without, you know, the ability to offer legal advice and stating that [Tim] Adams who comes to the support group is some kind of legal advice, which is bullshit Ďcause the guyís a disbarred lawyer, you know. And, so, he canít offer legal advice either, you know. Although heís Ė heís Ė heís been in law and he knows the law and, you know, in all honesty, he knows how to offer legal advice. Heís just not supposed to do it.† So, not that he does. Do you know what Iím saying?† Like he doesnít offer this legal advice.† He might do it from his home. I donít really care about that. Thatís his issue. Um [Throughout this interview, "SA" fails to distinguish legal advice from legal information; the result is that his statements at one point seem to contradict those at another. But the reporter never sought clarification from him--and put into print his 'advice' claim about me but not his denial here that Adams gave legal advice.]††† [Next] ††††††††U00313
DL:††††† Okay, so is it fair to say that Ferrel was opposed because [Tim] Adams couldnít be
at two places.
SA:††††† Oh, you betcha. You betcha.
SA:††††† Ferrel and [Tim] have to be at everything. So, I mean, [Tim] seems to be chairing the meetings as of the last AGM, since he got Ė [Tim] got elected as president. Iím pulling out of the whole group. I just canít handle it. I donít like [Tim], number one. Heís hit on my girlfriend. Heís always got crude remarks about women. I just donít like him. Now, itís, you know, Iím angry about something that went on with my ex, but I still donít think you need to disrespect women the way he does, you know. And, just, you know, just the jokes and, l donít know. I donít know, Donna, whether youíre around some people like that, but itís frustrating to listen to someone just be so, you know, piggish, you know, about people in general. Not even just women. But just ignorant.[For the record, in my hearing [Tim] Adams has never disrespected women.]
DL:††††† So, heís not a very pleasant
SA:††††† No, you know, he can be. Heís very well-worded and stuff. But you get him with six guys having a beer and heís disgusting, right?
SA:††††† And he says disgusting things that I donít even think about. You know, like, so itís not polite. And I, you know, he sometimes will do that outside of the six guys in the bar having a beer thing, but, you know, heís justĖI just donít trust him. I donít think heís that trustworthy. I donít think heís really involved with ECMAS except to pull people out of there to help so he can, you know, make some kind of money helping them fight for their fight in court. I donít think Ė oh, and, you know, on top of that, like making himself look good that heís part of ECMAS and thatíll help him in his case, with his battle with his child. His three children. So, I donít know. You know, now, Iím not in his mind. You know what Iím saying? I
SA:††††† donít really know. But, I donít Ė Iím not very happy that heís vice president. I donít think Ė and not because I ran for presidency and then my girlfriend would have ran for vice president Ė well, she did run for vice president.†† Sheíll have a Ė if you talk to her, sheíll have a whole Ďnother take on this whole story. But
DL:††††† So, so you proposed it; thereís a discussion. Ferrel
DL:††††† is against it.
††††††††††† [The informant's own speculation regarding why I opposed the second support group:]
SA:††††† He's totally against it because [Tim] couldn't be there and then we argued that, because [Tim] could be there. [Tim] lives closer to me. Itís all on the north side. We would Ė and I think Ferrel was opposed because FerreI might not be able to make it to both meetings. You know, that would just make more meetings for him that he might not be able to make. Uh, so, and it was farther away for him and I just donít think he wanted to do that. [This illustrates the illogical thinking of which SA is capable: I too
lived on the north side, not terribly far from Mr. Adams, and I had more time to attend meetings than anyone else. But it reinforces the fact that he knew I was not using the meetings to get clients for Mr. Adams.] [Back]
DL:††††† Okay. So, what happened when the vote came?
SA:††††† Everyone voted for it except Ferrel. Ferrel voted against it.
DL:††††† And heís voting at the general meetings even though heís not a member?
SA:††††† Well, weíre Ė Iím not sure heís not a member.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
SA:††††† I Ė I Ė I canít. I can tell you within the next several days whether he is or not
DL:††††† Okay. So everyone voted against it, except Ferrel. So, he lost the vote, So, is it happening?
SA:††††† Well, thatís just it. So that was two months ago in January and Iíve asked Jiggs constantly Ė see now, this is a little bit on my part, but Iím not seeing any progression within ECMAS or any Ėyou know, thatís two months ago. EveryĖ the last two AGMs no oneís mentioned it.
SA:††††† I would be the one who would take hold and do it, but the problem with it is if I start this meeting, which I went out there withĖ [girlfriend] and l went out there, talked with the lady, got Ė we could Ė weíd be setting everything up. Once I did that, who would be there? Ferrel and [Tim] and they would just take control. [Telling readers of his wanting to
lead the new group would've identified him--but again: we'll see that giving him anonymity was illegitimate.]
DL:††††† Okay.†† †
SA:††††† You know what I mean? Like, I wasnít going to put the effort to bring this all together if Ferrel and [Tim] were going to start trying to walk all over me.
DL:††††† So when you
SA:††††† At this point
DL:††††† say they were going to take control, what do you mean?
[For the record, I never hosted the meetings and Mr. Adams did so only once, when Jiggs Haiden couldn't be present. Perhaps SA suddenly felt it unwise to say more about his giving regular legal information/advice:]
SA:††††† Well, they just start hosting the meetings. You know, you have a support group meeting Ė weíd be in there. Iíd set it all up, weíd go there, we donít even know if
[He now changes the subject, but has made clear that his motive was not concern for the attendees. It was resentment at not being allowed to run things on his own (regardless of harm to attendees).]† [Next]†† U00314
people are going to show up, but weíd probably advertise that on the menís support line. Iíd been asking Jiggs for two months now to get together with me to letís work out this Ė the details. Letís work out the details. Iíve got to contact the lady, you know. Just the details of getting it going. Weíve got to contact Elsie at the menís help line and get them to tell people when they phone that they have two options of two places to go, you know. Just start advertising it. Put it on the web, yada yada. But, heís never done that.
SA:††††† Since this Ė since that vote, And I ask him every meeting at the support group and he said, yeah, yeah, and it just doesnít happen. And, you know, for a year Iíve done a lot for this group. Iíve done a mega-lot for this group. Um, I organized a Father's Day picnic last year on my own which turned out a hundred people or more. You know, I got sponsors from Safeway, or GA, sorry. And, you know, Iíve put this
[For the record, the picnic was put on yearly by Mr. Haiden; this claim of doing it on his own is his ego again.]
SA:††††† shared plan together. Iíve done so much for this group in one year and I just wasnít ready to do this more
SA:††††† seeing what was going on, you know.
SA:††††† Bob Ė Bob, our president, is like Ė been to like, in the last six months, has been to three of the meetings, you know, three of the general meetings. He shows up five minutes and then passes the meeting to the vice president or our personnel department, Ron, and walks away. And heís, well, I got things to do. Iíve got my kids or whatever. And thatís fine, you got your kids, but itís just whatever. Why even be president of a Ė why even run again if youíre not going to do anything.
[For the record, this is a very large exaggeration of Bob Bouvier's temporary time constraints..]
SA:††††† Theyíre just not doing anything. And itís driving me insane. So, then I see Ferrelís always there to offer his opinion and, I was quite happy that he Ė I donít know if I told you that, but heís the one who wrote the new by-laws. Okay? For the ECMAS group?
SA:††††† And I went through them with a fine-toothed comb. He actually e-mailed me a copy. So, I had a Ė a few different takes of different by-laws.
SA:††††† Society by-laws. And I was comparing them all and looking at them and thinking whatís really good. So I made a suggestion at the meeting along with [girlfriend] saying, letís Ė this is only a Ė this is in the book (?) around the same time. But, Ferrelís by≠laws were by far the best type of by-laws for a society, but we need to get together in a meeting and review them and fine-point them, fine-detail them and letís get these things done. So we organized a meeting, got enough people Ė board members Ė together to actually finalize them and that was a feat that took one whole year as far as I could see, you know. They needed those to get a charitable tax number which theyíd been saying theyíve been trying to get, but I know different, so.
DL:††††† Okay. Now how many board members are there?
SA:††††† Uh, one, two, probablyĖthis isĖfour, five, sixĖprobably 10 or 12.
DL:††††† 10 or l2?
DL:††††† And so how do you get to be part Ė a member of the board?
SA:††††† They vote. Itís by vote.
††† SA:††††† By Ė by ballot I guess. I guess Iíve heard of ------------ president this year.
SA:††††† I made ballots up for the AGM. They were probably going to just go with a raise of hands, I donít know.
SA:††††† Itís so disorganized. Itís a joke.
DL:††††† So, could I get a list of who the board members are at the moment?
SA:††††† Yeah. [As everywhere else, the reporter ignores an interviewee--the one she quoted most in her two
articles--who starts to discuss the election, changing the subject instead.]†† ††††††††† [Back]
DL:††††† Is that available on some website or something or
SA:††††† Um, oh, uh, no.
DL ††††† No?
SA:††††† It wouldnít be up on the web Ė have you been to the ECMAS website?
DL:††††† Not in a long time.
SA:††††† Oh, ECMAS. Itís ecmas dot net.
SA:††††† ww ECMAS dot net. And, no. I donít think Ė I donít know I havenít checked it since the AGM last week, Maybe someone put it Ė Todd might have put it up, but I highly doubt it.
DL:††††† Okay. So where else could I get that list of whoís on the board?
SA: †††† Probably from me.
DL:††††† From you? Okay.
DL ††††† Okay. Can I give you my
SA:††††† I donít have it right now.
DL:††††† Okay. May I give you my fax number?
SA:††††† What about an e-mail?
DL:††††† Sure, Thatís fine, too.
SA:††††† I like e-mail donít you?
DL:††††† Oh, sure. Uh, my e-mail is my first initial, which is d for Donna.
DL:††††† Followed immediately by my last name, which is L-A-F as in Frank-R-A-M as in Mary-B as in Bob-
SA:††††† Okay. At
DL:††††† S as in Sam-E.
SA:††††† At which?
DL:††††† S like in Sam-E at National Post, which is one word.
SA:††††† All right. Okay.
SA:††††† Iím quite the talker, eh?
DL:††††† No, thatís okay. Um, can I ask you some specific question here?
DL:††††† I'm not going to use your name.
SA:††††† Are you going to use that Iím the chair Ė chair
DL:††††† No, no, no, no. Oh, no.
SA:††††† ĎCause theyíll figure it out, you know.
DL:††††† No. Weíre going to say a current member who prefers not to be identified.
[Nowhere else did this person--quoted anonymously in both articles--give any other reason for it.]††††††† [Back]
SA: †††† Okay. Iím out of there, I think, by the end of this month anyway.
SA:††††† Iím going out in style.
SA:††††† Iím going to slam everybody.
DL:††††† Well, if you wart to go out in style, maybe you want to reconsider whether you want to give me permission to use your name. Iím not going to and Iím not going to pressure you, but
DL:††††† um, I can tell you that as a journalist itís much, much better for people to use their names
SA: †††† Because itís more credible.
DL:††††† Yeah. Because otherwise, you know, people think Iím making it up or something, right?
SA:††††† Well, when are you going to do this story?
DL:††††† Well, weíd like to run it this Saturday if I can get it together in time.
SA: †††† Oh, thatís Ė thatís pretty quick.
DL:††††† Yeah. Yeah. Thatís our Ė thatís our goal.
- 22 -
SA:††††† Is it?
DL:††††† Yeah. Because, you know, the Ė the election was last week, right?
SA:††††† Right. Right. You know what, no, I donít want to use my name.
DL:††††† Okay. Sure
SA:††††† ĎCause Iíve still got three meetings at the support meeting and the general meeting next month and thereís no way Iím going to get a chance to go out in style with these people until next month.
DL:††††† That's fine. No problem.
SA:††††† Okay. Iím sorry Ė I
SA:††††† I mean, I would. Okay. Just so long as you understand. Like, Iíve Ė I worked with them for a year and theyíre going to be dumbfounded and shocked when I walk Ė when I leave.
SA:††††† Because they think that theyíve Ė I donít know, for some reason they think theyíve done me some kind of favour and they havenít.
SA:††††† And they just wonít Ė itís quite interest Ė itís going to be quite interesting. Even Ferrel will probably shed a tear when I leave, though. Even though weíve had our ups and downs, but I think heíll be quite disappointed.
SA:††††† Probably because I havenít read his book.
SA:††††† Iíve read all of Louiseís opinions of that book and, um, Iíve read the quotes and, I, you know, I think he makes a lot of sweeping statements and sheís making a lot of
[On the audiotape (in contrast to CanWest's transcript here), it is clearly 'she makes', not 'he makes'--FC]
- 23 -
Ė taking a lot of ideas Ė I even said this to Louise Ė that maybe that, you know, her interpretation is maybe harsher than somebody elseís interpretation because sheís quite angry with him. And she analyzed that, but she has her opinion and Iím not going to say yes or no to what sheís saying. Iím just saying that, I donít really trust Ferrel and I donít really know heís doing anyways.††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††† [Back]
SA:††††† Iím not sure [unintelligible Ė static]
SA:††††† Have you checked out †††††††††† ††?††††††
SA:††††† At all. I don't know whether your story's on Ferrel and [Tim] or what - what is the story about?
DL:††††† The story is on - on ECMAS Edmonton, that - now this is sort of where I am now, but as I say, you're the first person I've talked to other than Louise.† So, you know,it may change. But,
DL:††††† people tell me different things. But
DL:††††† but this is Ė working thesis at the moment is that ECMAS is an important group, itís done a lot of good stuff, it has a long and honourable history, but the Edmonton chapter seems to have gone a little astray lately and, and that is evidenced by the fact that [Tim] Adams was elected to an official position and also that, you know, another person who has a very strong influence on the organization, Ferrel Christensen, has some, some, you know, perhaps questionable ideas When you put those two things together, it doesnít look very good. [Not only was she intending from
SA:††††† Right. I agree. I agree.† I mean, [girlfriend] and I were running and we Ė I said to Louise, I said, if [girlfriend] and I would have been voted in, the whole aspect of ECMAS would have changed beautifully. Like just, it would have been amazing. ĎCause you've got this, you know, young couple Ė both single parents Ė running an organization. That would have been just amazing.
SA:††††† Because weíve both got drive for this kind of thing. But weíre ĖI mean, I donít know if Louise has told you the extent of where [girlfriend] and I sit with this stuff, but weíre eventuallyĖweíre slowly moving towards doing things with Louise and, you know, Iím getting rid of ECMAS completely and Iím just going to start with Louise and
weíre going to branch out and do things with Louise and continue fighting for equal rights. And do it in an honest, good way, you know. [The couple's activity in ECMAS went
on 5 months more at a much-decreased level; they never started any sort of organized work with Malenfant.]
SA:††††† Iíd rather work Ė Iíd rather work with ten women than half these guys that are all whining and crying about it. Theyíre not doing anything. Iím so pissed off about the whole thing. And Ė and Iím, you know, I donít know. So, anyways, we had coffee with Louise a couple of nights ago and great conversation and she faxed me all this stuff sheís got and stories sheís had written about her. Because people have been slamming her here.
SA:††††† And I just canít believe that
SA:††††† I canít believe it. After reading the stuff from Winnipeg and obviously youíve had a long-time relationship with her.
SA:††††† So, I just can't believe that Ferrel and these guys that - my group - that, you know, I consider kind of my group or whatever, just you know what I mean by saying that Ė Iím blown away. After sitting and talking with her and, Iím blown away that theyíve axed her right out. And, and, theyíve pushed away somebody that they should Ė they should just all be, you know, um, I donít want to say anything angry, they just should wake up. You know, theyíve done something horrible for their whole situation. Theyíve voted in [Tim] as the vice president. Uh, and theyíve, you know, Ferrelís in there making this opinions Ė I donít even know if heís a frigging member. And theyíve pushed away Louise who is getting write-ups in the National Post. You know, itís like, what are you guys nuts? [This person and his girlfriend were the only ECMAS
regulars supporting Ms. Malenfant; their conspiring relationship with her will be filled out as we go.]† †††[Back]
DL:††††† Okay, ["SA"]. Um, I -- I have to go in a few minutes, but let me ask you a couple of very specific questions.
DL:††††† Now. When you were Ė was [Tim] Adams there before you arrived at the group? Before you joined the group? Whatís your first memory of [Tim] Adams? Where did he come from?
SA:††††† Uh, yeah, he was at the Ė well, like I said, I first joined ECMAS by going to the support group.
SA: †††† And then was later voted into Ė on the board. But,
DL:††††† So, he was there before you.
SA:††††† Yes, he was. I think heís been Ė heís been around about the same time Jiggs has been around starting the support group. So, for almost two years I think.
DL:††††† Almost two
SA:††††† Or a year and a half at least for sure.
DL:††††† Okay. Now, were you Ė did anyone in ECMAS ever tell you that [Tim] was a disbarred lawyer?
SA: †††† Um, nope.
DL:††††† So you
SA:††††† No one talks about that.
DL:††††† Okay. You go to the meetings, you meet this guy.
SA:††††† I know that because after the meetings Ė after the support group meetings, and I donít want to slam the support group meetings Ďcause those are important.
SA:††††† They are big-time important. Um, you know, whether [Tim]ís there are not, these people get some help and thatís
SA:††††† you know, thatís ultimately a good goal whether thereís a bunch Ė some people there that are questionable which is always going to happen in some kind of support group meeting. But, you know, after the meetings, a couple of the guys, [Tim], myself and [girlfriend] sometimes, weíd go downstairs to the Smittyís and we have a beer† or a coffee whatever anybody wants. And you still sort of sit down there and weíd talk for a bit and sort of outside of the group. You know, outside [The words of this attendee
too make clear that the after-meeting event wasn't for Mr. Adams to do paid work. Note also the grandmother's
account of the after-meeting socializing. Since the reporter knew all of these things, she very well knew how
misleading it would be to publish the "[Tim]'s office" quote.]
DL ††††† Uh-huh.† ---->† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
SA:††††† of the support group. Itís just sort of to get together, maybe play some pool or whatever.†† [Back]† So, that is when it came to my attention that [Tim] was disbarred. Because Iím pretty inquisitive. I mean, I think three weeks after Iíd gone to those meetings, I was asking about Ferrel. I was like whatís up with him? You know, I want to know a little bit about him. Another guy, Dave Ė geez, I canít remember Daveís last name. He doesnít come to the meetings anymore. He said, well, you know, Ferrelís a little weird and I donít know about it. Like I donít Ė I think Ferrelís weird. Like, heís just weird.
SA:††††† Um, you know, heís a good man in some of the things he has to say and stuff, but heís just creepy, man.† The guyís Ė Iím not even going to get into that, but whatever.
["Source A" is the person quoted anonymously on this subject in the article.]
SA:††††† Yeah. I think I just asked [Tim]. Or, you know, I canít say for sure if somebody whispered it to me and then I just confronted [Tim]. Says, oh, did you get Ė did you get disbarred? How come? And then he said, well, you know, I got Ė I got Ė I got set up by the police and this hooker and whatever and I went, oh, okay, and you know, I didnít get the whole story until I started getting involved more and more with ECMAS and then sort of buddying up to [Tim] to find out what was going on.† [Next]
DL:††††† Okay. Now, so
SA:††††† I know the whole story.
SA: †††† Right from [Tim]ís mouth.
DL:††††† Okay. Now, have you ever heard at a meeting - support group meeting Ė Iím not talking about going to the bar afterwards, but Iím talking about at a meeting of ECMAS Ė have you ever heard people being told that they should maybe fire their lawyers and hire [Tim] instead?
SA: †††† Um, no. And I told Louise that, too. No. †
DL:††††† No? Okay.
SA:††††† No. [As noted earlier, however, on one occasion--two months before this interview, so he and I could
both have remembered it--I did say I'd fire a certain lawyer for what he did: (Go down two pages)]† ------>##
DL:††††† Have you ever gotten Ė has [Tim] ever given you a card Ė a business card?
SA: †††† Oh, yeah.
DL:††††† Do you have one around?
SA:††††† Uh, yeah, you know what, I threw out his old one Ďcause he changed them.
SA:††††† He used to be called pare Ė oh, geez Ė Iím looking at Ė no, I donít have the old one. The old one had something like, paralegal services, I think, or something like that.
SA:††††† And now heís switched to Ėjust give me a sec, Iím looking, Have you seen it?
DL:††††† Well, Louise has told me that, you know, he has a card, but I havenít seen it.
SA:††††† Okay. Iím just Ė he just gave it to me last week. Hang on a sec, Iím looking for it.†††† I usually have these right in my book and, uh, ---------------------- jacket. Sorry. Iím trying to hurry. I know you want to get going.
DL:††††† Thatís okay. Donít worry.
SA: †††† I canít believe it. I canít find it. But the business card now just says [Tim] .J. Adams.
SA:††††† And it says B.A. something or other, I donít know.† Bachelor of Arts, B.A. and LLB or whatever. I donít know what the lawyer ----------------- stands for. And something Hon. Do you know what Hon. means?
DL:††††† I think Honours maybe.
SA:††††† Honours, yeah. I think Ė I donít think it Ė it doesnít really say Ė says nothing about lawyer.
SA: †††† So I think heís gotten smart that way.
DL:††††† Right. Now, if you find his card
DL:††††† We might like to use it as, you know, as an illustration to go with the article. So if could fax it to me, or otherwise I could send a courier to pick it up.
DL:††††† Um, that would be very helpful to me.
SA: †††† Okay. Okay. Iíll try and find it and get you a copy of it.
- 28 -
DL:††††† Yeah. Just like make a photocopy and then put the photocopy through the fax
DL:††††† Would be fine. As long as itís, you know, reasonably clear so we could reproduce
SA:††††† Yeah. I can scan it here.
DL:††††† Okay. Let me give you my fax number after all.
SA: †††† 416-3
SA: †††† Yeah.
DL:††††† And just put attention Donna L on it, like in big letters Ďcause thereís lots of us here and sometimes they go astray.
SA:††††† Okay. Donna L. Okay.
DL:††††† Okay. So, you havenít heard anyone advised in all the meetings youíve gone to
SA:††††† I Ė we have Ė okay thereís a lot of times, yeah, in a lot of the meetings I have heard people say, what you should do Ė and Ferrel has said this Ė what you should do is call [Tim].† [Tim], you know what, [Tim] Ė Iím going through this in my head.†† [Tim] is a lawyer, you should talk to [Tim].
SA:††††† Iíve heard him say that.
SA:††††† Several times. But, uh, heís never said [Tim] is a disbarred lawyer, but he can still help you.
SA:††††† You know what I mean, like? And I can understand why no one says heís a disbarred lawyer. And itís not very Ė Iíve had to struggle with this, right? Iím going to these support groups and these guys get help, but on the other hand, you know, itís not always so good that Ė its not good for our image.† And I would have Ė if I was president, I would just nip it in the bud. But Iím not, so, um, anyways, yeah, Iíve heard him say that. Iíve never heard [Tim]Ėwell, Iíve heard Ferrel say stuff like you should Ė oh, I would fire that lawyer.
SA:††††† But, you know, weíre talking somebody just being opinionated.
DL:††††† Right. ††††††††††††† [Next]†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
SA:††††† Iíve heard that from all kinds of people, you know. Even, you know, whatever. But never, you know, like I said, itís always mentioned that this isnít legal ad - you know,† no one's Ė no oneís twisting your arm or anything so
SA:††††† everyoneís own opinion, but Ferrelís very adamant and very sure that the only person that could really help in that group is [Tim] Adams.
SA:††††† I donít know what the hell thatís all about. But it really pisses me off. Because† Ferrel goes over my head several times and says well, let me, you know, I think you should, you know, while Iím offering some advice to a guy which will either be, you know, well, you need to ask your lawyer something or, you know, maybe you should get a second opinion from a different lawyer. [Again an odd sudden switch: from 'offering some advice' to merely saying one should ask a lawyer for the advice. His motive for doing that here, despite earlier (p. 9) discussing his giving of "advice" about the law in meetings, could again include having sudden second thoughts about revealing to the reporter that he was giving "legal advice". At least, he evidently didn't want her to know that I felt he was constantly spouting misinformation.]†
SA:††††† Uh, you know, -------------- advice, you know, Ferrel will cut me off and say, well, I think you should talk to [Tim]. ['or to someone else who knows the law' is what I generally said.]
SA: †††† You know, that kind of thing.
SA: †††† And, you know, Iím like, Ferrel, donít make me mad.†††††††††††† [Back]†††††††††††††
SA:††††† So, and Iíve let a lot of that stuff go because I donít really Ė I donít really have a grasp on what these guys are doing yet.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† 1100327
SA:††††† Except that I think that [Tim] is, you know, manipulating people possibly to make money from them. [Even for this strong statement he gives no evidence--and she asks for none.] [Back]
DL:††††† Okay. So why do you think that? Like is he handing out cards at these meetings and saying call me? Or †
SA:††††† Uh, no, the support group, Jiggs does that for [Tim]. Jiggs has a booklet full of, you know, heís got a bunch of [Tim]ís business cards and when somebody has a problem, Jiggs says here, have [Tim]ís business card,† [As Jiggs can testify, [Tim] did not request him
to do this. But like me and others, Jiggs said this to particular persons he thought [Tim] could help.]
DL:††††† Right. And [Tim] is sifting right there?
SA:††††† Sometimes [Tim] isnít there when that happens. [Mr. Adams was normally there, and when requested would give out his card or let others do it.
Either way, he himself did not solicit business at meetings. He kept a low profile, merely answering the questions that none of the regular attendees could answer.]
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
SA:††††† And if [Tim]ís there, I donít, you know, I havenít really paid a lot of attention to that, but I think Ė yeah, heís handing out cards to guys that Ė that want to talk to him. Heís - Iíve heard him say, yeah, here take my card; give me a call at home and weíll talk about it. ["Talk
to him", the reporter could see, could have involved anything from getting contact information for lawyers they might hire to legal facts Mr. Adams would have to
look up.]†††† [Back]
SA:††††† You know?
SA:††††† So, he's - I mean, he's doing cases. You know. Heís definitely doing cases. Heís doing the paperwork. Heís doing all that I know he is. [If this informant--who went regularly to the after-meeting pub events and was intent on discrediting Mr. Adams to the reporter--had ever seen Mr.
Adams doing work for pay, he would surely have said more than this.]
DL:††††† So cases of people who came to the support group?
SA: †††† You betcha.
DL:††††† Okay. So these people did not know him before he came Ė they came to the support group. Now they came to the support group. Heís doing work for them and theyíre paying him obviously.
SA:††††† Right. [We will see other passages where this informant says Mr. Adams "must be" doing paid work, but does not even hint that he ever saw him do it at
the meetings they both attended.]††††††††††††††††† [Back]
DL:††††† You have any idea how much theyíre paying him?
SA: †††† I have no idea. I donít even know if theyíre paying him, you know.
SA:††††† I do know that Iíve heard him say, Iíve done lots of free work for these people.
- 31 -
SA:††††† You know.
SA:††††† I donít, you know, heís disbarred for whatever he did. But, you know, the work heís
Ė if heís doing some work. I mean, you have have to tell Ė I mean, whatís your take on it. I donít know how unethical it is. Heís helping these guys. They canít do it Ė theyíre getting it probably cheaper than they would have through a lawyer, so
DL:††††† Well, my take on it is that if I have a guy whoís already in trouble, whoís already got trouble in his life up to his neck.
DL:††††† I should not be
SA:††††† Helping other people.
DL:††††† No, no, no. I mean Ė I mean Ė you know, you have a guy whoís got marriage problems, divorce problems. He goes to the support group.† Heís stressed out of his mind. Heís got trouble enough coming out of his ears. I should not be directing him to someone whoís going to help him without letting him know that this guy is unsavory. And, Iím sorry, a disbarred lawyer is unsavory.
DL:††††† And I think if that guy who's desperate who comes to the support group, walks into court with [Tim], thatís a big strike against him and he hasnít even been told.[She later learned [Tim] Adams wasn't going to court with clients. Note her professed concern about harm to "desperate"
people accompanied there by him, yet not any about harm by the untrained yet cocksure Ms. Malenfant.][Next]
SA:††††† Yeah. Youíre right.† Because [Tim] said to me a couple of times.† Hey, I can help you out. And I said, no, thanks.
SA:††††† I donít want him in my Ė involved, you know. Iíve done this on my own and even though [Tim] has offered me a few advice Ė Iíve asked him. You know, Iíve dug for some answers for stuff, of course, for free.
SA:††††† I wouldnít pay him a cent.††††††
SA:††††† But, I would, you know, Iíve gone and I said, you know, he said well, do you want me to, do you need some help, or whatever. And Iím like, nope. Okay, [Tim].† Thanks a lot.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† 1500329
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SA:††††† I donít need it.
DL:††††† Now, can you think of any people that I might be able to phone who you know [Tim] has worked on their case? Because, you know, Iíd like to know whether heís getting paid for it or not.
SA:††††† Um, you know what, right off the top of my head, Donna, I donít.
SA:††††† But I can probably go Ė I can go through my list
SA:††††† Um, you know, I have a binder for the support group that has everybodyís name thatís ever been through that door, so
DL:††††† Oh, really. Wow.
SA:††††† Um, so, oh yeah, I have a Ė itís huge. Iíve got a big binder. Thereís a lot of people that come Ė have come to that support group.
SA:††††† So if youíre interested in the numbers, I can probably count that up for you.
DL:††††† Sure, if you have the time. Yeah.
SA:††††† Oh, yeah. Well, I Ė itís a lot. In the last few years a lot of people. And great for statistics, Iíll tell you.
SA:††††† Iím just collecting it. [Yet again giving himself credit for what Jiggs was really doing.]
SA:††††† But, I have to go through that list I have and maybe I can find a few people that have Ė have gone through him.
DL:††††† Right. Because, you know, if itís Ė if he tells me, you know, because I am going to phone him at some point, [Tim] and say, you know, are you getting clients this way?
DL:††††† And, you know, are you charging them and if, you know, suppose he says no.
- 33 -
SA: †††† Yeah.
DL:††††† You know, well, Iíd like to actually confirm that with
SA:††††† Confirm that, right.
DL:††††† a few people whoíve Ė whoíve actually used him, right?
DL:††††† Because, you know, you know, I'm sure he is giving people free advice and is doing free work,
DL:††††† but itís hard to believe that he would just spend all his time doing it for free.
SA:††††† Yeah. I know he doesnít. ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††
SA:††††† I know he doesnít. I mean, every time heís ever said Ė Iíve said, hey, [Tim], I just need you to bring over a piece of paper or something Ė this is last year Ė and I would say, can I get, you know, can I get something for, you know, some information, heíd say, sure, come on over, bring a hundred bucks, you know. Thatí was always his joke. And Iíd go, yeah, whatever, and Iíd hang up and Iíd
DL:††††† Okay. So you think he was joking when he was saying bring a hundred bucks or
SA:††††† Uh, yeah, well, he said it lightly.
SA: †††† Telling Ė knowing full well heíd never get a hundred dollars from me.
DL:††††† Okay. [Two pages earlier here he admits that Mr. Adams gave him information for free. (If anything, his words at this point hint at resentment for not getting as much free help from Mr. Adams as he wanted.)]
SA:††††† But, the chance of Ė you know, itís better than not saying it. So, you know, I know he would. If I gave him a hundred bucks, heíd take it. [Note his unwillingness to pay for the kind of paperwork a paralegal normally gets paid for. Unlike many, "SA" could afford to pay for it.]
SA:††††† You know, without blinking. That's why I say, I'm not respectful of [Tim] because of
††††††††††† the fact that I don't think he's in this except to make money.† [So the argument is that giving paid as well as free help proves that to be his sole motive. This invalid logic did not deter the reporter.]
SA:††††† Heís not there because of the fathersí rights. [All this is alleging--falsely, for the record--is
that Mr. Adams, like any other professional, is doing the work for money rather than from ideology or altruism.
But that isn't saying that such a professional "doesn't care" about his clients, much less that he is "preying" on
them. SA's reasoning here is merely unfounded; what the reporter twisted it into is vicious.] †††††††††
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††† ††††††††††† U00331
- 34 -
SA:††††† At least thatís my opinion, you know.† [In fact, had Mr. Adams gotten all his clients elsewhere, he could've given in-depth help to far fewer parents than he did; it was precisely by taking ECMAS clients, not other kinds, that he acted on his commitment to "fathers' rights". (Again contrast the reporter's use against Mr. Adams of this unfounded opinion to her suppressing, to harm me, of what the same person observed.)]†† [Next] †
SA:††††† I seen him at the fatherís day picnic and, you know, heís got Ė Iím sorry to say heís got some type of lawyer mentality and, you know, and heís very, you know, me, me, me.
SA:††††† I'm not going to say that about all lawyers, but, you know what Iím saying?
SA: †††† Heís just very self-consumed and you can talk to him. Itís like those people you talk to and theyíre like, yeah, uh-huh, oh yeah. And theyíre doing something else while youíre talking to them, you know. That kind of them.
SA:††††† And that Ė that turns me right off_-------------------- Okay, I donít need to even bother talking to you, so.
DL:††††† Right. Right.
SA:††††† Anyway. Which I havenít found youíve done after Iíve rambled on for the last
DL:††††† Well, youíve been very generous with you time. Iím sorry to take up so much of it.
SA:††††† Oh, thatís fine. Iím Ė Iím actually Ė Iím on Ė todayís my day to work on more stuff, so Ė
SA:††††† I get my son this evening, so
DL:††††† Oh, nice.
DL:††††† Well, Iím going to let you go.
DL:††††† No, if you have a chance to send me the Iist of the board members
SA:††††† Okay. Oh, right. Iím going to write this all down.
- 35 -
DL:††††† Yes. List of board members.
DL:††††† And phone numbers if you have, because, you know, I think in fairness I should phone up some of the board members and say, are you concerned about this. You know, that [Tim] Adams is now vice president and heís
SA: †††† Yeah.
DL:††††† you know, heís Ė heís, you know, this official with your organization and he has this kind of unsavory past. And, uh, you know, so, so, you know, in fairness I think I should do that.
SA: †††† Okay. Yeah. Do you have Rick Fowlerís phone number or
DL:††††† No. Rick who?
SA: †††† Rick Fowler.
DL:††††† No. Whoís Rick Fowler?
SA:††††† Heís Ė heís the chair for Maintenance and Maintenance Enforcement.
DL:††††† Okay. Could you just kind of make me a list of those people
SA:††††† I wiIl
DL:††††† that I should phone.
SA: †††† do that and Iím going to Ė Iím probably going to e-mail you the whole
DL:††††† Perfect. And then the one last thing is that if you Ė if you are lucky enough to find the card and could fax that to me.
SA: †††† Business Ė you know what is so upsetting. The old one from last year?
SA:††††† Which was more of a Ė it was lawyer based, right? It said paralegal services or whatever.
SA:††††† It said P.J. Paralegal Services or something. I canít remember. I just threw that card out.
DL:††††† Oh, well.
- 36 -
SA: †††† Just two weeks ago.
DL:††††† Oh, dear.
SA:†††††† Because I was cleaning out all my business cards and putting them in a new binder.
SA:††††† So, very sad that I did that. But [girlfriend] might have one. Iíll have to check with her.
SA:††††† So, business card and thereís one other thing. Maybe some numbers.
DL:††††† Maybe some numbers if you have a chance.
DL:††††† Of how many people are going to the support group and are actually being helped by ECMAS.
SA: †††† Oh yeah, okay. Numbers and maybe somebody that [Tim] might have done work
DL:††††† Yes. Yes. Thatís the other big one. Yeah. [No record exists of his sending her any such.]
SA:††††† Okay. Promise not to put my name.
DL:††††† I promise. Cross my heart.
SA: †††† Okay. I want to be your friend Donna.
SA: †††† Okay.
DL:††††† No, I
SA:††††† Oh, yeah, famous last words.
DL:††††† Well, what can I say? There are some journalists who lie and Iím not one of them, but†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Back]
SA:††††† Iím just kidding around, you know.
SA:††††† If you did it, you know, Iím Ė Iíve gone through hell in two and a half years. Thereís not much anybody can do to hurt me anymore, so
- 37 -
DL:††††† Well, I donít want to add to your hurt, so
SA: †††† Okay. Good. Then weíll be friends.
SA: †††† Okay somebody that
END OF TAPE