TELEPHONE INTERVIEW

TELEPHONE INTERVIEW

DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (“DL”) AND "Source A" (“SA”)

[For reasons explained elsewhere, the names of the reporter's four interviewees unnamed in the two articles have been replaced, in this publicized version of the lawsuit documents, with descriptors and initials (as seen above). In all other ways, this version's wording remains as in the original lawsuit document.--FC]

SA: --------------_What can I do for you?

DL: Well, um, I don’t know if Louise ----------------, she may not have. But, I am – have the unwelcome task of writing a little story about Alberta, pardon me, Edmonton’s ECMAS chapter.

SA: Right.

DL: Um, and, um, its not something that I’m happy to be doing, but it’s something that I think is important to do.

SA: Right.

DL: And, so, um, I know that, that people – some people are very concerned about being quoted in the media, but I was hoping that perhaps you might chat with me about what you’ve seen going on there and, you know, then maybe we could talk about whether you feel comfortable with me quoting you saying any of it or not.

SA: Sure. Um, I - I even told this to Louise earlier last week. Um, I'm not sure if I want to

use my name.

DL: Okay.

SA: Um, only because I’m still part of it.

DL: Okay. You’re still part of ECMAS.

SA: Well, I’m – I’m – I’m a committee chair.

DL: Okay.

SA: So, I’m right involved with it big time. I have been for the last year.

DL: Okay. [Next]

SA: I just ran for president.

DL: Okay.

SA: So, I don’t know if you knew that.

DL: Okay.

SA: I ran for president last – last week.

U00299

-2-

DL: Oh, right.

SA: It was our AGM and I’ve been trying to get this –the whole committee itself, or, you know, all of ECMAS organized.

DL: Right.

SA: And so I thought that would be a good way of doing that is running for president.

DL: Right. Makes sense to me.

SA: Yeah, exactly. But just because I thought things are moving slowly. Now, Louise has a whole different view of ECMAS than I do because, of course, I’ve been involved with them for a year and Louise hasn’t.

DL: Okay. So why don’t you tell me – why don’t we start there. Why don’t you tell me about what your view is.

SA: Well, I – I – I think, I think as a whole, I think the group is a good group.

DL: Okay.

SA: It’s a good organization. The ideal and finally – this is so funny. The last year these guys have been trying to nail down society by-laws..

DL: Yeah.

SA: Okay? And on the initiative of my girlfriend and myself, [girlfriend], who I’m sure Louise gave you her name and number, too.

DL: Okay.

SA: She’s also co-chair on the PR committee. We finally convinced the rest of the Board members to come over to her house just a couple of weeks ago

DL Uh-huh.

SA: and fill out the Society by-laws. Or finish – finalize them. Right?

DL: Okay.

SA: So, the best part about this is Ferrel Christensen, who I’m still trying to figure out and establish whether he’s a member or what – I’m not sure – he’s donated money to ECMAS or just because he’s been around helping and bringing people in –why he has some kind of Board stature, but he’s not on the Board, I mean, he doesn’t– he not a – you know, he wasn’t voted in as any committee chair or president or secretary. He’s just always at a Board meeting.

[SA has confused the monthly member-meetings, where Board votes sometimes occur, with Board meetings]

DL: Okay. So, you’ve been involved for a year.

U0030

-3-

SA: Yes.

DL: How many meetings have you gone to in a year?

SA: Uh, well, there’s one every month and I’ve probably missed three.

DL: Okay. So you’ve gone to nine out of the last 12 meetings.

SA: Oh, you betcha.

DL: Okay, now what about – do they have weekly meetings or such

SA: Monthly.

DL: Monthly meetings. Okay.

SA: Monthly meetings.

DL: Nine out of 12 monthly meetings. Now at all nine of those meetings has Mr.

SA: The president has been there maybe four times.

DL: Okay. But, Mr. Christensen, has he always been there?

SA: Oh, every time.

DL: Every time.

SA: He doesn’t miss a meeting.

DL: Okay.

SA: He doesn’t miss a ECMAS meeting or a support group meeting.

DL: Okay. Okay.

SA: Which is a little confusing to me, but, whatever.

DL: Okay.

SA: I mean, I know Louise, how pissed off she is with Ferrel.

DL: Yeah.

SA: So, and I know, you know, she probably has good right. I haven’t seen the e-mails he’s c-mailed to her, but, I don’t – I mean, I going to – my opinion on Ferrel is he’s a little weird.

DL: Okay.

U00301

-4-

SA: I don’t know if you’ve met him.

DL: Um, I’ve – l

SA: You must have met him.

DL: I have not met him.

SA: No?

DL: We have corresponded a bit.

SA: Okay.

DL: Um

SA: I mean, he’s genuinely, I think he’s a nice guy. I’m not really too sure about his agenda or what he’s about. But,

DL: Okay.

SA: he’s very opinionated. And, and, so be it. You know, he’s an old professor from the University and, you know, I’m a young guy. I’m like 33 and I’ve got new age views and what have you. And, he’s just sort of one of those old fuddy-duddy stubborn people and he’s been in this whole business of fighting for gender bias rights and for gender rights and equality for many, many years.

DL: Right.

SA: Like before I was born, he always says to me.

DL: Okay.

SA: Urn, so, I always laugh at that. And, but, on this – on the same token, he’s just formed his opinions of certain people, you know, of stuff–we’re talking – I’m talking psychologists or whatever. ‘Cause, you know, he comes to the support groups and, I’m telling you a lot of information -------------------, are you recording this?

DL: Um, I’m taking some notes. Would you mind if I turn my tape recorder on.

SA: No. [Next]

DL: Okay.

SA: Go right ahead, I’m a big talker, you know.

DL: Okay.

SA: You must have to do that with Louise.

1300302

-5-

DL: Yeah, sometimes, Well, actually, yeah, sometimes, I turn on my tape recorder, but I just absorb it like a sponge some days.

SA: __---------------. Well, anyways, Ferrel comes to the support group meetings.

DL: Okay. So the support group meetings are different from the monthly meetings.

SA: Yes.

DL: Okay.

SA: Yeah. You didn’t know that?

DL: No.

SA: --------------.

_____

DL: Well, I'm just trying to make sure I'm not confused. So, support group meetings happen how often?

SA: Once a week,

DL: Okay. Now how many of those have you been to in the last year?

SA: Man. Well, what’s four times – wow.

DL: There’s 52 weeks in a year.

SA: 52, yeah. So, oh, geez, I say roughly many 40.

DL: Okay. So 40 in the last year and was Ferrel Christensen at all

SA: Every one.

DL: Every one _______

SA: He does miss one. [Mistranscription--should be 'doesn't'.]

DL: Okay. So he doesn’t miss the monthly meetings and he doesn’t miss the weekly meetings either.

SA: Yeah. Weekly meetings are the support group meetings.

DL: Okay. [Next]

SA: Now the support group meetings are where everything happens

DL: Okay.

U00303

-6-

SA: Because its the one that’s most widely advertised on the ECMAS men’s support

line – or men’s help line.

DL: Okay.

SA: Um, so if you phone the help line and say, you know, I’m a single parent – now I don’t want to, you know, gender this to men only.

DL: Yeah. Yeah.

SA: If you’re just a parent that’s going through that kind of problem.

DL: Yeah.

SA: I mean, it’s highly unlikely a lot of women call the men’s help line,

DL: Right.

SA: but you never know. Uh, if you call that line they’re going to say, well, there is a ECMAS support group which is called – you know, they call it the men’s support group or the non-custodial parent support group. You can comedown and it’s every Tuesday night and it’s in Bonnie Doon Mall and

DL: Sorry, where? Which mall? Sorry.

SA: Bonnie Doon.

DL: Bonnie Doon?

SA: Yeah. Bonnie Doon Mall. And it’s, geez, I don’t have the exact address.

DL: No, no, it’s just – so is it like in an empty store or something.

SA: No, no, sorry. Its – there’s a medical centre on the west side of the building.

DL: Okay.

SA: And there’s offices up there.

DL: Okay.

SA: So they’ve– it’s right close to–there’s a Capital Health thing down the hallway and stuff and they rent us that space.

DL: Okay.

SA: Or they give it to us for free or something.

DL: Okay. Okay.

U003114

-7-

SA: We don’t pay for it I don’t think.

DL: Cool.

SA: So, it’s, yeah, it’s really nice. They’ve donated it for the last two years, I think.

DL: So Tuesdays. And what times are the support group.

SA: 7:00.

DL: 7:00 til when?

SA: 9:00.

DL: 7:00 til 9:00. Okay.

SA: Yeah, It’s a really good thing. That’s what – how I started into this. You know, I went through my own baffle which one day I’m going to try and – I’ll try and get you to write my story.

DL: Uh-huh.

SA: But, that’ll be another thing. But, when – you know, after I went – I was going through it for a year and doing a lot of research and finding out about, you know, the whole situation, ‘cause I’d never been in it before. Um, I decided I gotta search something out and find out what’s going on and I found out about this men’s support group meeting.

DL: Right.

SA: And, you know, one month - one and a half months into it, I was chairing the meeting. So, or at least co-chairing it with Jiggs, which is another part of ECMAS that I’m involved in. I – I pretty basically sit on the end of the table at the support group meetings and I offer my advice and opinions and whatever along with the other co-chair, James, and [Though puffing up his role in the group--the sole leader (James, or "Jiggs") sometimes let him chair the meeting--this informant ("Source A") did indeed speak out often and very freely in all sessions. Enough so, the reporter knew from these and other words here, that he was in a position to have easily mentioned [Tim] Adams' disbarment in meetings, had he really felt that it should be done.[Back]

DL: So, how – how many people come to these meetings?

SA: Well, there’s at least – last night there was – last night there was another meeting. I would say – it depends. You know, anywhere from 12 people to 40.

DL: 12 to 40. Okay.

SA: Yeah. Its – it’s – you know, it’s an open

DL: Yeah.

SA: support group meeting. Sometimes we have a lot of – we have a – I think I see about four or five guys that they always come back

U00305

-8-

DL: Uh-huh

SA: just because of the group and they like to come listen and offer their opinions and talk and have coffee and, I think, just to be around a bunch of other guys. Right?

DL: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

SA: For the night. Excuse me. Uh, I would say in the last three months, four months I’ve seen at least 30 people in that room.

DL: Every day? Every time?

SA: Yeah.

DL: Yeah.

SA: Yeah. 25 to 30 people. It’s amazing.

DL: Okay. So when you first started going to the support group, what – what were you getting out of it? What were you going?

SA: Um, well, like I said

DL: I just want – tell me in your own words.

SA: I did it – I had already gone through one year of battling in court on my own case.

DL: Okay.

SA: Uh, on my own. Right? ‘Cause I’ve always fought on my own. Um, but I thought

– now, my first initial thing was to find out where I could go from here in my case. What I could do to change the insane laws I was facing.

DL: Okay.

SA: So, my whole idea of finding a group and finding any kind of men’s stuff, was to become organized and, you know, start a revolution. That’s was my

DL: Okay. Okay.

SA: So I came into the support group and reaIized what it was and thought, well, I can stay to this because emotionally I’ve detached myself with my case. So, I’m not – I’m not, you know, distraught like a lot of those guys that come in there.

DL: Okay.

SA: They’re, you know, they are beaten up. They are beaten up so bad, you know, I have to sit, like, I have to sit and sometimes in my own heart and whatever I have to fight back tears, because I–these guys are ready–there’s some guys I’ve seen

1300306

-9-

walk in there ready to put a bullet in their head. And that’s – you can quote me on that. I’ve seen it. And it’s – it is – it’s shocking. Because I lived it every day for two and a half years.

DL: Right.

SA: But I've just shut off my emotion. l just know where my battle is and I know what the laws are, so I’m just going to get through this. And a lot of those guys do that, too, but they just don’t have the energy or the spunk to keep – to fight. You know, they come to the support groups just to get some advice on what they should talk to about their–you know, whether they’re lawyer’s given them the runaround, or, you know, what they should do about their ex who’s restricting their access or, you know, all kinds of little situations. Um, sometimes they have new guys that come in and they don’t know what to do with, you know, their ex just said, get out, and they locked the doors, changed the locks and the cops said they can’t go back, and they don’t know what to do. And, it’s – she’s given them divorce papers or something. And, vice versa. I’ve had women into the group that say the same thing. And so, we, you know, we say, well, you know, you tell them they can get – they can guess out some lawyers. There’s a lawyer referral program. Or they can get some advice. Or, you know, all these sort of things. There’s all kinds of different options for these people. So, that’s what this – I’m offering the group myself

DL: Okay.

SA: Because I – I’ve – I’ve researched it enough. I’ve gone through a lot of it and I’ve

– I sort of know. You know, at the very beginning we have a little spiel that we say that, you know, we’re not legal – we’re not giving legal advice and it’s a support group and we ask that everyone refrain from making sweeping general statements and to, you know, direct their questions to the chair of the meeting. It’s quite an organized meeting actually. I mean, sometimes it gets a little out of hand. You know, you’ve got a lot of angry people in that room talking,[Here he tells the reporter of the disclaimer that

our group wasn't giving professional "legal advice". But it is also clear from his words above that it was giving

information and lay advice about problems in the legal system--and clear that this informant about the second-

support-group episode was himself doing so, convinced he had enough legal knowledge.] [Next]

DL: Yeah.

SA: so you have to. You know, like somebody will pipe up and say something silly like, you know, just some guy and say I know somebody who can do somebody in for $3,000. And, I go, okay, you can keep those comments to yourself.

DL: Right.

SA: We don’t want to talk about stuff like that here. And, you know, so, I like to be there for that situation. But Ferrel is always at those meetings. And he always has an opinion of specific assessors like [name redacted]. I’m going to quote those. Because I don’t really know this [name redacted], but, and I’ve never - but I’ve read some stuff that he’s – he seems to be fairly decent. But then I’ve heard lots of things where a lot of guys have had bad luck with assessments from him. And I could go on about that side of things, too. But, whatever. Anyways, um, all and all, I really don’t know why Ferrel was there. Except to collect information and probably

U00307

-10-

phone numbers from all the new guys that come in. I mean, Louise and I have had this conversation many times. And I – I just don’t – I’m not really sure what his angle is yet. But he seems to be involved with everything. And for what reason, I don’t know.

DL: Okay, now, I don’t want you to agree to something that you don’t have a clear memory of, so, you know, if you don’t remember, you just tell me you don’t remember.

SA: Okay.

DL: But, Louise seems to remember an occasion at a support meeting in the last few months in which she suggested, or someone suggested that maybe the support meetings should be broken up into two. Because they were sort of getting big and not everyone was having a chance to speak [So the reporter herself knew about the chronic lack of time.] [Back]

and so someone made the suggestion that maybe the meetings could be broken up into two. And, you know, I’m not clear whether it was two different days or just two different rooms on the same day and, she says that – that Ferrel Christensen opposed that on the basis that [Surveying the

interview prior to this point reveals that she asked SA this before ever mentioning Mr. Adams to him.] [Back]

SA: She’s told you everything, eh?

DL: that – well, but, you know, I always

SA: That was my suggestion

DL: triple check.

SA: you realize that.

DL: Oh, okay. Okay. Well, tell me about it. Then you tell me what happened.

SA: Well, I – [girlfriend], who is – I’ve already spoke of her, right? Have you talked to her yet?

DL: No. No. You’re the first person I’ve called.

SA: Okay. Well, [girlfriend] is my girlfriend and she came to the group after– I’ll give you just a quick rundown on her.

DL: Okay.

SA: She’s a divorced mom, too.

DL: Okay.

SA: Or going through a divorce. And she’s got a five-year-old daughter and her and her husband are civil.

DL: Okay.

U00308

- 11 -

SA: They work it out. And it’s great. Um, but I met her because I went to a rally at one

of the townhall meetings with Anne McLeIlan.

DL: Okay.

SA: And I went to that meeting. It was downtown somewhere on 121 Street. I went to the townhall meeting and [girlfriend]’s mother was at this meeting holding a sign for pro- life or something. I didn’t really know what it was about. I didn’t read her sign. But she was standing off to the side in the building with this sign. Just standing against the wall. And the speaker of this townhall meeting was telling her she had to leave because she had this sign on her neck. And we’re talking a townhall meeting with the whole community there. Right? Everyone’s in suits, ties, kids, whatever. It’s just packed. And this guy’s making a stink before he’s going to start the townhall meeting with Anne McLeIlan and the rest of the constituents, he’s going to kick this lady out. And I don’t know her from – you know, I don’t know her at all. And I’m sifting there in my suit and tie with my son. I had him that Wednesday – it was a Wednesday night. And, can you hand on one second?

DL: Yeah, no problem.

conversation off phone

SA: Hi. I’m on the phone so I’m going to be a bit.

?: Okay. I’ll see you.

SA: Okay. Thanks . Okay.

?: Don’t worry about it. I’ll talk to you later.

SA: Okay. Are you okay? Okay. Good. Thanks _________.] returns to phone Okay, sorry about that.

DL: No problem.

SA: Um, so, anyways, this guy is going to kick her out. And I’m writing on a piece of paper in my binder that I’m – questions that I’m going to ask Anne McLelIan about shared parenting and stuff ‘cause I’m, you know, I’m on the bandwagon. So I’m sitting there and my son’s playing with another one of my friend’s kids. And we're all just sitting there. And this guy gets up and he says he’s going to remove this lady. And he goes to remove her and as he’s walking I’m thinking, I’m writing in my book and I’m thinking, you know, no one’s doing anything. He’s already – the speaker’s already asked a couple of plainclothes policemen that were at the meeting to remove her. They said no. People are yelling, you know, leave her alone. It’s a free country, you know, that kind of thing. And he gets up to remove her himself.

DL: So who is this person?

U00309

-12-

SA: Oh, I–you know, I

DL: Okay. Okay.

SA: I wish I knew. He’s a dark man. He’s a

DL: Doesn’t matter. I just thought maybe he was one of the people that I was asking you about.

SA: No, no, he’s not. Sorry, this is so off topic, but I just wanted to quickly tell you this. And so he gets up to remove her and I’m – I’m saying, if he gets to this lady I’m going to have to do something about this. ‘Cause, you know, I’m thinking, let’s get on with the townhall meeting and stop this bullshit about trying to kick some lady out with a sign. So anyways, he gets up and he gets about 10 feet from her and I stand up in front of him. And I look – I turn my–I look right at him and I say, you’re going to have to go through me first to kick her out. Then I turned my back to him and I just faced this lady.

DL: Uh-huh.

SA: And he tries to go around me and I’m just – I’m being calm, you know. Not threatening. I’ve got my back to him. The next thing you know six other guys from the crowd stand up and stand around this lady and this guy’s not getting anywhere with anybody, so, and then people are yelling, you know, free speech, free country, go sit down, start the meeting.

DL: Right.

SA: Oh, it was just crazy. It was great. Finally he went back and sat down and started the meeting and this lady got to stay. Well, she was ecstatic and she, you know, I told her about our meetings at the support group and so she started coming. And then she brought her daughter who was going through this divorce.

DL: Right.

SA: And so that’s how I met her. So

DL: Oh, cool.

SA: there’s the story. Very cool story. Very great. And she’s an awesome lady. And she’s helped – she’s right on the bandwagon with me about the shared parenting and all that stuff.

DL: Okay.

SA: And I’m sure one day we’ll meet.

DL: Okay. Now to get back to the

U00310

-13-

SA: Lets get back to this.

DL: proposal to split the two support meetings.

SA: So [girlfriend] and I go to St. Albert Parents Place, is what it’s called, to inquire about some, you know, some information, on, you know, St. Albert statistics of men that came through there. They have little programs far families and whatever. And they offer us this space that we can actually use to have meetings.

DL: Okay.

SA: Or whatever we want to do with it.

DL: Okay.

SA: And I’m like, oh, this is awesome, you know. They’ve got an on-staff daycare and, geez, we could have meeting whenever, right? So, and they want us to participate in the bingos. It was a great meeting and she said there’s a lot to offer there – videos – and I’m thinking this is amazing for single parents.

DL: Okay.

SA: And so – and which it is. I mean, whether it’s going to be six, five people getting together or a hundred, it was a great big space.

DL: Okay.

SA: And we need to expand this support group. It’s that simple. I mean, one’s ----, there’s a lot of people that are on – live on the north side here and then this one's way on the south side in Bonnie Doon. So, it would just be smart to have one, whether it worked or not, we didn’t know. Just a test run.

DL: Okay.

SA: So I bring this up at one of the general meetings.

DL: Rather than a support group meeting?

SA: Right.

DL: Okay.

SA: It was at the general meeting.

DL: Okay.

SA: And that’s where this suggestion was made. Not at the support group meeting.

DL: Okay.

U00311

- 14-

SA: So I’m at the general meeting. [girlfriend]’s there and, you know, our president’s there, and, you know, the whole board members are there. Couple of other members that have came to the meetings. Not very many people, okay. We’re talking 12 people, 13 people. And Ferrel’s there, of course. And [Tim] Adams. And Jiggs. Jiggs who is another – he’s the one who started this support group meeting.

[As the minutes for February show, Mr. Adams was not present--and "SA" has the month wrong.]

DL: Okay.

SA: A year before I even came.

DL: Okay.

SA: And, okay, so I go and I sortof brought this up to Jiggs on, you know, before the meeting and mentioned it to him and said do you mind if I, you know, think about mentioning this. And, you know, in all honesty, now that I have to – I have to retrace my steps. Because I think I did mention it at one of the support group meetings, but very lightly. Like, just, I didn’t make it – it wasn’t a vote. It was nothing. It was just sort of – I said .Jiggs – and I don’t even know if I brought it up in front of all these other guys. I think I just mentioned it to ..Jiggs and I said, at the next general meeting I’m going – I’m going to ask about it and we’ll vote on I guess or whatever.

DL: Right.

SA: Yeah, right on. Okay. Let’s do that. Because .Jiggs was into that. Because when we get 35 or 30 to 35 people in that room, there’s not enough room.

DL: Okay.

SA: In the one that we have right now. And so ft’s – we just thought, let’s have another one on a different night and if some people who couldn’t make it or some people thought it was easier that night, they would go to this other one. And we’d just sort of split it up and it would just help alleviate big messes of people, right?

DL: Yeah. Yeah.

SA: Um, so, right on. Jiggs and I were thinking about doing this. Jiggs meaning James. He’s the one who started – who started the support group.

DL: Okay.

SA: Um

DL: So when was – when was the date of this general meeting when you raised it? Do you remember? A month ago? Three months ago? Before Christmas?

SA: Three months ago. Yeah, definitely, about three months ago.

DL: Before Christmas?

U00312

-15-

SA: Uh, oh, I’d have to check with [the girlfriend].

DL: No, no. Just approximately.

SA: Well, I think it was, geez, I think it was – had to be January.

DL: Okay.

SA: Right after Christmas.

DL: Okay.

SA: In the second week of January.

DL: Okay.

SA: That’s when they are.

DL: Okay.

SA: So the second week, Monday night, in January, we’re having the general meeting. And I brought this up. Brought, you know, showed them the pamphlets and told them all about the opportunity of, you know, we could actually, as a group, we could actually help with – there’s a lot of societies in there that are already working with Parents Place. Like the United Way and they’re sponsored by the United Way and a bunch of other people. And I said, hey, I had a little presentation. Showed them this, you know, just a little speech about it. And showed them a booklet and said, and this is to the board members, and I said, Jiggs and I have discussed this and thought, you know, we would like to have this other thing - this other support group. We don’t really know whether it will run one day or on a Saturday, we’re not sure. We haven’t figured out that. Or whether it’d be two months or twice a month or every week. We’re not sure. We just want to test it out. And so the vote was – the vote that came to be was that would it be okay for Jiggs and ["SA"] to start another support group for the next six or eight weeks and test it out.

DL: Okay.

SA: And everyone voted in favour except Ferrel. Ferrel was extreme – and, I’m just saying what I remember him saying, I am extremely opposed against this. This is before we voted. He said, this will be horrible. It’s not a good idea. We can’t have some other support group meeting without, you know, the ability to offer legal advice and stating that [Tim] Adams who comes to the support group is some kind of legal advice, which is bullshit ‘cause the guy’s a disbarred lawyer, you know. And, so, he can’t offer legal advice either, you know. Although he’s – he’s – he’s been in law and he knows the law and, you know, in all honesty, he knows how to offer legal advice. He’s just not supposed to do it. So, not that he does. Do you know what I’m saying? Like he doesn’t offer this legal advice. He might do it from his home. I don’t really care about that. That’s his issue. Um [Throughout this interview, "SA" fails to distinguish legal advice from legal information; the result is that his statements at one point seem to contradict those at another. But the reporter never sought clarification from him--and put into print his 'advice' claim about me but not his denial here that Adams gave legal advice.] [Next] U00313

-16-

DL: Okay, so is it fair to say that Ferrel was opposed because [Tim] Adams couldn’t be

at two places.

SA: Oh, you betcha. You betcha.

DL: Okay.

SA: Ferrel and [Tim] have to be at everything. So, I mean, [Tim] seems to be chairing the meetings as of the last AGM, since he got – [Tim] got elected as president. I’m pulling out of the whole group. I just can’t handle it. I don’t like [Tim], number one. He’s hit on my girlfriend. He’s always got crude remarks about women. I just don’t like him. Now, it’s, you know, I’m angry about something that went on with my ex, but I still don’t think you need to disrespect women the way he does, you know. And, just, you know, just the jokes and, l don’t know. I don’t know, Donna, whether you’re around some people like that, but it’s frustrating to listen to someone just be so, you know, piggish, you know, about people in general. Not even just women. But just ignorant.[For the record, in my hearing [Tim] Adams has never disrespected women.]

DL: So, he’s not a very pleasant

SA: No, you know, he can be. He’s very well-worded and stuff. But you get him with six guys having a beer and he’s disgusting, right?

DL: Right.

SA: And he says disgusting things that I don’t even think about. You know, like, so it’s not polite. And I, you know, he sometimes will do that outside of the six guys in the bar having a beer thing, but, you know, he’s just–I just don’t trust him. I don’t think he’s that trustworthy. I don’t think he’s really involved with ECMAS except to pull people out of there to help so he can, you know, make some kind of money helping them fight for their fight in court. I don’t think – oh, and, you know, on top of that, like making himself look good that he’s part of ECMAS and that’ll help him in his case, with his battle with his child. His three children. So, I don’t know. You know, now, I’m not in his mind. You know what I’m saying? I

DL: Sure:

SA: don’t really know. But, I don’t – I’m not very happy that he’s vice president. I don’t think – and not because I ran for presidency and then my girlfriend would have ran for vice president – well, she did run for vice president. She’ll have a – if you talk to her, she’ll have a whole ‘nother take on this whole story. But

DL: Okay.

SA: But–

DL: So, so you proposed it; there’s a discussion. Ferrel

SA: Right.

U00314

-17-

DL: is against it.

[The informant's own speculation regarding why I opposed the second support group:]

SA: He's totally against it because [Tim] couldn't be there and then we argued that, because [Tim] could be there. [Tim] lives closer to me. It’s all on the north side. We would – and I think Ferrel was opposed because FerreI might not be able to make it to both meetings. You know, that would just make more meetings for him that he might not be able to make. Uh, so, and it was farther away for him and I just don’t think he wanted to do that. [This illustrates the illogical thinking of which SA is capable: I too

lived on the north side, not terribly far from Mr. Adams, and I had more time to attend meetings than anyone else. But it reinforces the fact that he knew I was not using the meetings to get clients for Mr. Adams.] [Back]

DL: Okay. So, what happened when the vote came?

SA: Everyone voted for it except Ferrel. Ferrel voted against it.

DL: And he’s voting at the general meetings even though he’s not a member?

SA: Well, we’re – I’m not sure he’s not a member.

DL: Okay. Okay.

SA: I – I – I can’t. I can tell you within the next several days whether he is or not

DL: Okay. So everyone voted against it, except Ferrel. So, he lost the vote, So, is it happening?

SA: Well, that’s just it. So that was two months ago in January and I’ve asked Jiggs constantly – see now, this is a little bit on my part, but I’m not seeing any progression within ECMAS or any –you know, that’s two months ago. Every– the last two AGMs no one’s mentioned it.

DL: Okay.

SA: I would be the one who would take hold and do it, but the problem with it is if I start this meeting, which I went out there with– [girlfriend] and l went out there, talked with the lady, got – we could – we’d be setting everything up. Once I did that, who would be there? Ferrel and [Tim] and they would just take control. [Telling readers of his wanting to

lead the new group would've identified him--but again: we'll see that giving him anonymity was illegitimate.]

DL: Okay.

SA: You know what I mean? Like, I wasn’t going to put the effort to bring this all together if Ferrel and [Tim] were going to start trying to walk all over me.

DL: So when you

SA: At this point

DL: say they were going to take control, what do you mean?

[For the record, I never hosted the meetings and Mr. Adams did so only once, when Jiggs Haiden couldn't be present. Perhaps SA suddenly felt it unwise to say more about his giving regular legal information/advice:]

SA: Well, they just start hosting the meetings. You know, you have a support group meeting – we’d be in there. I’d set it all up, we’d go there, we don’t even know if

[He now changes the subject, but has made clear that his motive was not concern for the attendees. It was resentment at not being allowed to run things on his own (regardless of harm to attendees).] [Next] U00314

-18-

people are going to show up, but we’d probably advertise that on the men’s support line. I’d been asking Jiggs for two months now to get together with me to let’s work out this – the details. Let’s work out the details. I’ve got to contact the lady, you know. Just the details of getting it going. We’ve got to contact Elsie at the men’s help line and get them to tell people when they phone that they have two options of two places to go, you know. Just start advertising it. Put it on the web, yada yada. But, he’s never done that.

DL: Okay.

SA: Since this – since that vote, And I ask him every meeting at the support group and he said, yeah, yeah, and it just doesn’t happen. And, you know, for a year I’ve done a lot for this group. I’ve done a mega-lot for this group. Um, I organized a Father's Day picnic last year on my own which turned out a hundred people or more. You know, I got sponsors from Safeway, or GA, sorry. And, you know, I’ve put this

[For the record, the picnic was put on yearly by Mr. Haiden; this claim of doing it on his own is his ego again.]

DL: _----------------

SA: shared plan together. I’ve done so much for this group in one year and I just wasn’t ready to do this more

DL: Sure.

SA: seeing what was going on, you know.

DL: Okay.

SA: Bob – Bob, our president, is like – been to like, in the last six months, has been to three of the meetings, you know, three of the general meetings. He shows up five minutes and then passes the meeting to the vice president or our personnel department, Ron, and walks away. And he’s, well, I got things to do. I’ve got my kids or whatever. And that’s fine, you got your kids, but it’s just whatever. Why even be president of a – why even run again if you’re not going to do anything.

[For the record, this is a very large exaggeration of Bob Bouvier's temporary time constraints..]

DL: Right.

SA: They’re just not doing anything. And it’s driving me insane. So, then I see Ferrel’s always there to offer his opinion and, I was quite happy that he – I don’t know if I told you that, but he’s the one who wrote the new by-laws. Okay? For the ECMAS group?

DL: Okay.

SA: And I went through them with a fine-toothed comb. He actually e-mailed me a copy. So, I had a – a few different takes of different by-laws.

DL: Okay.

U00316

-19-

SA: Society by-laws. And I was comparing them all and looking at them and thinking what’s really good. So I made a suggestion at the meeting along with [girlfriend] saying, let’s – this is only a – this is in the book (?) around the same time. But, Ferrel’s bylaws were by far the best type of by-laws for a society, but we need to get together in a meeting and review them and fine-point them, fine-detail them and let’s get these things done. So we organized a meeting, got enough people – board members – together to actually finalize them and that was a feat that took one whole year as far as I could see, you know. They needed those to get a charitable tax number which they’d been saying they’ve been trying to get, but I know different, so.

DL: Okay. Now how many board members are there?

SA: Uh, one, two, probably–this is–four, five, six–probably 10 or 12.

DL: 10 or l2?

SA: Yeah.

DL: And so how do you get to be part – a member of the board?

SA: They vote. It’s by vote.

DL: Okay.

SA: By – by ballot I guess. I guess I’ve heard of ------------ president this year.

DL: Okay.

SA: I made ballots up for the AGM. They were probably going to just go with a raise of hands, I don’t know.

DL: Right.

SA: It’s so disorganized. It’s a joke.

DL: So, could I get a list of who the board members are at the moment?

SA: Yeah. [As everywhere else, the reporter ignores an interviewee--the one she quoted most in her two

articles--who starts to discuss the election, changing the subject instead.] [Back]

DL: Is that available on some website or something or

SA: Um, oh, uh, no.

DL No?

SA: It wouldn’t be up on the web – have you been to the ECMAS website?

DL: Not in a long time.

U00317

- 20-

SA: Oh, ECMAS. It’s ecmas dot net.

DL: Okay.

SA: ww ECMAS dot net. And, no. I don’t think – I don’t know I haven’t checked it since the AGM last week, Maybe someone put it – Todd might have put it up, but I highly doubt it.

DL: Okay. So where else could I get that list of who’s on the board?

SA: Probably from me.

DL: From you? Okay.

SA: Yeah.

DL Okay. Can I give you my

SA: I don’t have it right now.

DL: Okay. May I give you my fax number?

SA: What about an e-mail?

DL: Sure, That’s fine, too.

SA: I like e-mail don’t you?

DL: Oh, sure. Uh, my e-mail is my first initial, which is d for Donna.

SA: Right.

DL: Followed immediately by my last name, which is L-A-F as in Frank-R-A-M as in Mary-B as in Bob-

SA: Yeah.

DL: O-I-S-E

SA: Okay. At

DL: S as in Sam-E.

SA: At which?

DL: S like in Sam-E at National Post, which is one word.

SA: All right. Okay.

1100318

-21-

DL: dotcom.

SA: I’m quite the talker, eh?

DL: No, that’s okay. Um, can I ask you some specific question here?

SA: Okay. You're promising me that you're not to publish my name.

DL: I'm not going to use your name.

SA: Are you going to use that I’m the chair – chair

DL: No, no, no, no. Oh, no.

SA: ‘Cause they’ll figure it out, you know.

DL: No. We’re going to say a current member who prefers not to be identified.

[Nowhere else did this person--quoted anonymously in both articles--give any other reason for it.] [Back]

SA: Okay. I’m out of there, I think, by the end of this month anyway.

DL: Okay.

SA: I’m going out in style.

DL: Okay.

SA: I’m going to slam everybody.

DL: Well, if you wart to go out in style, maybe you want to reconsider whether you want to give me permission to use your name. I’m not going to and I’m not going to pressure you, but

SA: Right.

DL: um, I can tell you that as a journalist it’s much, much better for people to use their names

SA: Because it’s more credible.

DL: Yeah. Because otherwise, you know, people think I’m making it up or something, right?

SA: Well, when are you going to do this story?

DL: Well, we’d like to run it this Saturday if I can get it together in time.

SA: Oh, that’s – that’s pretty quick.

DL: Yeah. Yeah. That’s our – that’s our goal.

U00319

- 22 -

SA: Is it?

DL: Yeah. Because, you know, the – the election was last week, right?

SA: Right. Right. You know what, no, I don’t want to use my name.

DL: Okay. Sure

SA: ‘Cause I’ve still got three meetings at the support meeting and the general meeting next month and there’s no way I’m going to get a chance to go out in style with these people until next month.

DL: Okay.

SA: So

DL: That's fine. No problem.

SA: Okay. I’m sorry – I

DL: No.

SA: I mean, I would. Okay. Just so long as you understand. Like, I’ve – I worked with them for a year and they’re going to be dumbfounded and shocked when I walk – when I leave.

DL: Right.

SA: Because they think that they’ve – I don’t know, for some reason they think they’ve done me some kind of favour and they haven’t.

DL: Oh.

SA: And they just won’t – it’s quite interest – it’s going to be quite interesting. Even Ferrel will probably shed a tear when I leave, though. Even though we’ve had our ups and downs, but I think he’ll be quite disappointed.

DL: Right.

SA: I don't have the same problem with Ferrel that Louise does.

DL: Right.

SA: Probably because I haven’t read his book.

DL: Right.

SA: I’ve read all of Louise’s opinions of that book and, um, I’ve read the quotes and, I, you know, I think he makes a lot of sweeping statements and she’s making a lot of

[On the audiotape (in contrast to CanWest's transcript here), it is clearly 'she makes', not 'he makes'--FC]

U00320

- 23 -

– taking a lot of ideas – I even said this to Louise – that maybe that, you know, her interpretation is maybe harsher than somebody else’s interpretation because she’s quite angry with him. And she analyzed that, but she has her opinion and I’m not going to say yes or no to what she’s saying. I’m just saying that, I don’t really trust Ferrel and I don’t really know he’s doing anyways. [Back]

DL: Okay.

SA: I’m not sure [unintelligible – static]

DL: Sorry?

SA: Have you checked out ?

DL: No,

SA: At all. I don't know whether your story's on Ferrel and [Tim] or what - what is the story about?

DL: The story is on - on ECMAS Edmonton, that - now this is sort of where I am now, but as I say, you're the first person I've talked to other than Louise. So, you know,it may change. But,

SA: Right.

DL: people tell me different things. But

SA: Right.

DL: but this is – working thesis at the moment is that ECMAS is an important group, it’s done a lot of good stuff, it has a long and honourable history, but the Edmonton chapter seems to have gone a little astray lately and, and that is evidenced by the fact that [Tim] Adams was elected to an official position and also that, you know, another person who has a very strong influence on the organization, Ferrel Christensen, has some, some, you know, perhaps questionable ideas When you put those two things together, it doesn’t look very good. [Not only was she intending from

the start for the article to be about me as well; she asked SA about me before asking about Mr. Adams:] [Next]

SA: Right. I agree. I agree. I mean, [girlfriend] and I were running and we – I said to Louise, I said, if [girlfriend] and I would have been voted in, the whole aspect of ECMAS would have changed beautifully. Like just, it would have been amazing. ‘Cause you've got this, you know, young couple – both single parents – running an organization. That would have been just amazing.

DL: Right.

SA: Because we’ve both got drive for this kind of thing. But we’re –I mean, I don’t know if Louise has told you the extent of where [girlfriend] and I sit with this stuff, but we’re eventually–we’re slowly moving towards doing things with Louise and, you know, I’m getting rid of ECMAS completely and I’m just going to start with Louise and

U00321

- 24-

we’re going to branch out and do things with Louise and continue fighting for equal rights. And do it in an honest, good way, you know. [The couple's activity in ECMAS went

on 5 months more at a much-decreased level; they never started any sort of organized work with Malenfant.]

DL: Cool.

SA: I’d rather work – I’d rather work with ten women than half these guys that are all whining and crying about it. They’re not doing anything. I’m so pissed off about the whole thing. And – and I’m, you know, I don’t know. So, anyways, we had coffee with Louise a couple of nights ago and great conversation and she faxed me all this stuff she’s got and stories she’s had written about her. Because people have been slamming her here.

DL: Yeah.

SA: And I just can’t believe that

DL: Right.

SA: I can’t believe it. After reading the stuff from Winnipeg and obviously you’ve had a long-time relationship with her.

DL: Yeah.

SA: So, I just can't believe that Ferrel and these guys that - my group - that, you know, I consider kind of my group or whatever, just you know what I mean by saying that – I’m blown away. After sitting and talking with her and, I’m blown away that they’ve axed her right out. And, and, they’ve pushed away somebody that they should – they should just all be, you know, um, I don’t want to say anything angry, they just should wake up. You know, they’ve done something horrible for their whole situation. They’ve voted in [Tim] as the vice president. Uh, and they’ve, you know, Ferrel’s in there making this opinions – I don’t even know if he’s a frigging member. And they’ve pushed away Louise who is getting write-ups in the National Post. You know, it’s like, what are you guys nuts? [This person and his girlfriend were the only ECMAS

regulars supporting Ms. Malenfant; their conspiring relationship with her will be filled out as we go.] [Back]

DL: Right.

SA: So.

DL: Okay, ["SA"]. Um, I -- I have to go in a few minutes, but let me ask you a couple of very specific questions.

SA: Sure.

DL: Okay?

SA: Sure.

U00322

-25-

DL: Now. When you were – was [Tim] Adams there before you arrived at the group? Before you joined the group? What’s your first memory of [Tim] Adams? Where did he come from?

SA: Uh, yeah, he was at the – well, like I said, I first joined ECMAS by going to the support group.

DL: Okay.

SA: And then was later voted into – on the board. But,

DL: So, he was there before you.

SA: Yes, he was. I think he’s been – he’s been around about the same time Jiggs has been around starting the support group. So, for almost two years I think.

DL: Almost two

SA: Or a year and a half at least for sure.

DL: Okay. Now, were you – did anyone in ECMAS ever tell you that [Tim] was a disbarred lawyer?

SA: Um, nope.

DL: So you

SA: No one talks about that.

DL: Okay. You go to the meetings, you meet this guy.

SA: I know that because after the meetings – after the support group meetings, and I don’t want to slam the support group meetings ‘cause those are important.

DL: Yeah.

SA: They are big-time important. Um, you know, whether [Tim]’s there are not, these people get some help and that’s

DL: Yeah.

SA: you know, that’s ultimately a good goal whether there’s a bunch – some people there that are questionable which is always going to happen in some kind of support group meeting. But, you know, after the meetings, a couple of the guys, [Tim], myself and [girlfriend] sometimes, we’d go downstairs to the Smitty’s and we have a beer or a coffee whatever anybody wants. And you still sort of sit down there and we’d talk for a bit and sort of outside of the group. You know, outside [The words of this attendee

too make clear that the after-meeting event wasn't for Mr. Adams to do paid work. Note also the grandmother's

account of the after-meeting socializing. Since the reporter knew all of these things, she very well knew how

misleading it would be to publish the "[Tim]'s office" quote.]

DL Uh-huh. ---->

U00323

-26-

SA: of the support group. It’s just sort of to get together, maybe play some pool or whatever. [Back] So, that is when it came to my attention that [Tim] was disbarred. Because I’m pretty inquisitive. I mean, I think three weeks after I’d gone to those meetings, I was asking about Ferrel. I was like what’s up with him? You know, I want to know a little bit about him. Another guy, Dave – geez, I can’t remember Dave’s last name. He doesn’t come to the meetings anymore. He said, well, you know, Ferrel’s a little weird and I don’t know about it. Like I don’t – I think Ferrel’s weird. Like, he’s just weird.

DL: Okay.

SA: Um, you know, he’s a good man in some of the things he has to say and stuff, but he’s just creepy, man. The guy’s – I’m not even going to get into that, but whatever.

DL: Okay. So, you find out. Who tells you that [Tim] has been disbarred?

["Source A" is the person quoted anonymously on this subject in the article.]

SA: Yeah. I think I just asked [Tim]. Or, you know, I can’t say for sure if somebody whispered it to me and then I just confronted [Tim]. Says, oh, did you get – did you get disbarred? How come? And then he said, well, you know, I got – I got – I got set up by the police and this hooker and whatever and I went, oh, okay, and you know, I didn’t get the whole story until I started getting involved more and more with ECMAS and then sort of buddying up to [Tim] to find out what was going on. [Next]

DL: Okay. Now, so

SA: I know the whole story.

DL: Right.

SA: Right from [Tim]’s mouth.

DL: Okay. Now, have you ever heard at a meeting - support group meeting – I’m not talking about going to the bar afterwards, but I’m talking about at a meeting of ECMAS – have you ever heard people being told that they should maybe fire their lawyers and hire [Tim] instead?

SA: Um, no. And I told Louise that, too. No.

DL: No? Okay.

SA: No. [As noted earlier, however, on one occasion--two months before this interview, so he and I could

both have remembered it--I did say I'd fire a certain lawyer for what he did: (Go down two pages)] ------>##

DL: Have you ever gotten – has [Tim] ever given you a card – a business card?

SA: Oh, yeah.

DL: Do you have one around?

U00324

-27-

SA: Uh, yeah, you know what, I threw out his old one ‘cause he changed them.

DL: Okay.

SA: He used to be called pare – oh, geez – I’m looking at – no, I don’t have the old one. The old one had something like, paralegal services, I think, or something like that.

DL: Okay.

SA: And now he’s switched to –just give me a sec, I’m looking, Have you seen it?

DL: Well, Louise has told me that, you know, he has a card, but I haven’t seen it.

SA: Okay. I’m just – he just gave it to me last week. Hang on a sec, I’m looking for it. I usually have these right in my book and, uh, ---------------------- jacket. Sorry. I’m trying to hurry. I know you want to get going.

DL: That’s okay. Don’t worry.

SA: I can’t believe it. I can’t find it. But the business card now just says [Tim] .J. Adams.

DL: Okay.

SA: And it says B.A. something or other, I don’t know. Bachelor of Arts, B.A. and LLB or whatever. I don’t know what the lawyer ----------------- stands for. And something Hon. Do you know what Hon. means?

DL: I think Honours maybe.

SA: Honours, yeah. I think – I don’t think it – it doesn’t really say – says nothing about lawyer.

DL: Okay.

SA: So I think he’s gotten smart that way.

DL: Right. Now, if you find his card

SA: Yeah.

DL: We might like to use it as, you know, as an illustration to go with the article. So if could fax it to me, or otherwise I could send a courier to pick it up.

SA: Okay.

DL: Um, that would be very helpful to me.

SA: Okay. Okay. I’ll try and find it and get you a copy of it.

1100325

- 28 -

DL: Yeah. Just like make a photocopy and then put the photocopy through the fax

SA: Sure.

DL: Would be fine. As long as it’s, you know, reasonably clear so we could reproduce

it.

SA: Yeah. I can scan it here.

DL: Okay. Let me give you my fax number after all.

SA: Okay.

DL: 416-383-2439

SA: 416-3

DL: 83

SA: Yeah.

DL: 2439.

SA: Yeah.

DL: And just put attention Donna L on it, like in big letters ‘cause there’s lots of us here and sometimes they go astray.

SA: Okay. Donna L. Okay.

DL: Okay. So, you haven’t heard anyone advised in all the meetings you’ve gone to

SA: I – we have – okay there’s a lot of times, yeah, in a lot of the meetings I have heard people say, what you should do – and Ferrel has said this – what you should do is call [Tim]. [Tim], you know what, [Tim] – I’m going through this in my head. [Tim] is a lawyer, you should talk to [Tim].

DL: Okay.

SA: I’ve heard him say that.

DL: Okay.

SA: Several times. But, uh, he’s never said [Tim] is a disbarred lawyer, but he can still help you.

DL: Right.

U00326

- 29-

--------->##

SA: You know what I mean, like? And I can understand why no one says he’s a disbarred lawyer. And it’s not very – I’ve had to struggle with this, right? I’m going to these support groups and these guys get help, but on the other hand, you know, it’s not always so good that – its not good for our image. And I would have – if I was president, I would just nip it in the bud. But I’m not, so, um, anyways, yeah, I’ve heard him say that. I’ve never heard [Tim]–well, I’ve heard Ferrel say stuff like you should – oh, I would fire that lawyer.

DL: Right.

SA: But, you know, we’re talking somebody just being opinionated.

DL: Right. [Next]

SA: I’ve heard that from all kinds of people, you know. Even, you know, whatever. But never, you know, like I said, it’s always mentioned that this isn’t legal ad - you know, no one's – no one’s twisting your arm or anything so

DL: Right.

SA: everyone’s own opinion, but Ferrel’s very adamant and very sure that the only person that could really help in that group is [Tim] Adams.

DL: Okay.

SA: I don’t know what the hell that’s all about. But it really pisses me off. Because Ferrel goes over my head several times and says well, let me, you know, I think you should, you know, while I’m offering some advice to a guy which will either be, you know, well, you need to ask your lawyer something or, you know, maybe you should get a second opinion from a different lawyer. [Again an odd sudden switch: from 'offering some advice' to merely saying one should ask a lawyer for the advice. His motive for doing that here, despite earlier (p. 9) discussing his giving of "advice" about the law in meetings, could again include having sudden second thoughts about revealing to the reporter that he was giving "legal advice". At least, he evidently didn't want her to know that I felt he was constantly spouting misinformation.]

DL: Uh-huh.

SA: Uh, you know, -------------- advice, you know, Ferrel will cut me off and say, well, I think you should talk to [Tim]. ['or to someone else who knows the law' is what I generally said.]

DL: Right,

SA: You know, that kind of thing.

DL: Okay.

SA: And, you know, I’m like, Ferrel, don’t make me mad. [Back]

DL: Right.

SA: So, and I’ve let a lot of that stuff go because I don’t really – I don’t really have a grasp on what these guys are doing yet. 1100327

- 30-

DL: Okay.

SA: Except that I think that [Tim] is, you know, manipulating people possibly to make money from them. [Even for this strong statement he gives no evidence--and she asks for none.] [Back]

DL: Okay. So why do you think that? Like is he handing out cards at these meetings and saying call me? Or

SA: Uh, no, the support group, Jiggs does that for [Tim]. Jiggs has a booklet full of, you know, he’s got a bunch of [Tim]’s business cards and when somebody has a problem, Jiggs says here, have [Tim]’s business card, [As Jiggs can testify, [Tim] did not request him

to do this. But like me and others, Jiggs said this to particular persons he thought [Tim] could help.]

DL: Right. And [Tim] is sifting right there?

SA: Sometimes [Tim] isn’t there when that happens. [Mr. Adams was normally there, and when requested would give out his card or let others do it.

Either way, he himself did not solicit business at meetings. He kept a low profile, merely answering the questions that none of the regular attendees could answer.]

DL: Okay. Okay.

SA: And if [Tim]’s there, I don’t, you know, I haven’t really paid a lot of attention to that, but I think – yeah, he’s handing out cards to guys that – that want to talk to him. He’s - I’ve heard him say, yeah, here take my card; give me a call at home and we’ll talk about it. ["Talk

to him", the reporter could see, could have involved anything from getting contact information for lawyers they might hire to legal facts Mr. Adams would have to

look up.] [Back]

DL: Right.

SA: You know?

DL: Okay.

SA: So, he's - I mean, he's doing cases. You know. He’s definitely doing cases. He’s doing the paperwork. He’s doing all that I know he is. [If this informant--who went regularly to the after-meeting pub events and was intent on discrediting Mr. Adams to the reporter--had ever seen Mr.

Adams doing work for pay, he would surely have said more than this.]

DL: So cases of people who came to the support group?

SA: You betcha.

DL: Okay. So these people did not know him before he came – they came to the support group. Now they came to the support group. He’s doing work for them and they’re paying him obviously.

SA: Right. [We will see other passages where this informant says Mr. Adams "must be" doing paid work, but does not even hint that he ever saw him do it at

the meetings they both attended.] [Back]

DL: You have any idea how much they’re paying him?

SA: I have no idea. I don’t even know if they’re paying him, you know.

DL: Okay.

SA: I do know that I’ve heard him say, I’ve done lots of free work for these people.

1100328

- 31 -

DL: Okay.

SA: You know.

DL: Okay.

SA: I don’t, you know, he’s disbarred for whatever he did. But, you know, the work he’s

– if he’s doing some work. I mean, you have have to tell – I mean, what’s your take on it. I don’t know how unethical it is. He’s helping these guys. They can’t do it – they’re getting it probably cheaper than they would have through a lawyer, so

DL: Well, my take on it is that if I have a guy who’s already in trouble, who’s already got trouble in his life up to his neck.

SA: Right.

DL: I should not be

SA: Helping other people.

DL: No, no, no. I mean – I mean – you know, you have a guy who’s got marriage problems, divorce problems. He goes to the support group. He’s stressed out of his mind. He’s got trouble enough coming out of his ears. I should not be directing him to someone who’s going to help him without letting him know that this guy is unsavory. And, I’m sorry, a disbarred lawyer is unsavory.

SA: Right.

DL: And I think if that guy who's desperate who comes to the support group, walks into court with [Tim], that’s a big strike against him and he hasn’t even been told.[She later learned [Tim] Adams wasn't going to court with clients. Note her professed concern about harm to "desperate"

people accompanied there by him, yet not any about harm by the untrained yet cocksure Ms. Malenfant.][Next]

SA: Yeah. You’re right. Because [Tim] said to me a couple of times. Hey, I can help you out. And I said, no, thanks.

DL: Right.

SA: I don’t want him in my – involved, you know. I’ve done this on my own and even though [Tim] has offered me a few advice – I’ve asked him. You know, I’ve dug for some answers for stuff, of course, for free.

DL: Right.

SA: I wouldn’t pay him a cent.

DL: Right.

SA: But, I would, you know, I’ve gone and I said, you know, he said well, do you want me to, do you need some help, or whatever. And I’m like, nope. Okay, [Tim]. Thanks a lot. 1500329

- 32 -

DL: Now

SA: I don’t need it.

DL: Now, can you think of any people that I might be able to phone who you know [Tim] has worked on their case? Because, you know, I’d like to know whether he’s getting paid for it or not.

SA: Um, you know what, right off the top of my head, Donna, I don’t.

DL: Okay.

SA: But I can probably go – I can go through my list

DL: Okay.

SA: Um, you know, I have a binder for the support group that has everybody’s name that’s ever been through that door, so

DL: Oh, really. Wow.

SA: Um, so, oh yeah, I have a – it’s huge. I’ve got a big binder. There’s a lot of people that come – have come to that support group.

DL: Right.

SA: So if you’re interested in the numbers, I can probably count that up for you.

DL: Sure, if you have the time. Yeah.

SA: Oh, yeah. Well, I – it’s a lot. In the last few years a lot of people. And great for statistics, I’ll tell you.

DL: Right.

SA: I’m just collecting it. [Yet again giving himself credit for what Jiggs was really doing.]

DL: Right.

SA: But, I have to go through that list I have and maybe I can find a few people that have – have gone through him.

DL: Right. Because, you know, if it’s – if he tells me, you know, because I am going to phone him at some point, [Tim] and say, you know, are you getting clients this way?

SA: Right.

DL: And, you know, are you charging them and if, you know, suppose he says no.

U00330

- 33 -

SA: Yeah.

DL: You know, well, I’d like to actually confirm that with

SA: Confirm that, right.

DL: a few people who’ve – who’ve actually used him, right?

SA: Right.

DL: Because, you know, you know, I'm sure he is giving people free advice and is doing free work,

SA: Right.

DL: but it’s hard to believe that he would just spend all his time doing it for free.

SA: Yeah. I know he doesn’t.

DL: Right.

SA: I know he doesn’t. I mean, every time he’s ever said – I’ve said, hey, [Tim], I just need you to bring over a piece of paper or something – this is last year – and I would say, can I get, you know, can I get something for, you know, some information, he’d say, sure, come on over, bring a hundred bucks, you know. That’ was always his joke. And I’d go, yeah, whatever, and I’d hang up and I’d

DL: Okay. So you think he was joking when he was saying bring a hundred bucks or

SA: Uh, yeah, well, he said it lightly.

DL: Okay.

SA: Telling – knowing full well he’d never get a hundred dollars from me.

DL: Okay. [Two pages earlier here he admits that Mr. Adams gave him information for free. (If anything, his words at this point hint at resentment for not getting as much free help from Mr. Adams as he wanted.)]

SA: But, the chance of – you know, it’s better than not saying it. So, you know, I know he would. If I gave him a hundred bucks, he’d take it. [Note his unwillingness to pay for the kind of paperwork a paralegal normally gets paid for. Unlike many, "SA" could afford to pay for it.]

DL: Okay.

SA: You know, without blinking. That's why I say, I'm not respectful of [Tim] because of

the fact that I don't think he's in this except to make money. [So the argument is that giving paid as well as free help proves that to be his sole motive. This invalid logic did not deter the reporter.]

DL: Okay.

SA: He’s not there because of the fathers’ rights. [All this is alleging--falsely, for the record--is

that Mr. Adams, like any other professional, is doing the work for money rather than from ideology or altruism.

But that isn't saying that such a professional "doesn't care" about his clients, much less that he is "preying" on

them. SA's reasoning here is merely unfounded; what the reporter twisted it into is vicious.]

U00331

- 34 -

DL: Okay.

SA: At least that’s my opinion, you know. [In fact, had Mr. Adams gotten all his clients elsewhere, he could've given in-depth help to far fewer parents than he did; it was precisely by taking ECMAS clients, not other kinds, that he acted on his commitment to "fathers' rights". (Again contrast the reporter's use against Mr. Adams of this unfounded opinion to her suppressing, to harm me, of what the same person observed.)] [Next]

DL: Right.

SA: I seen him at the father’s day picnic and, you know, he’s got – I’m sorry to say he’s got some type of lawyer mentality and, you know, and he’s very, you know, me, me, me.

DL: Right.

SA: I'm not going to say that about all lawyers, but, you know what I’m saying?

DL: Yeah.

SA: He’s just very self-consumed and you can talk to him. It’s like those people you talk to and they’re like, yeah, uh-huh, oh yeah. And they’re doing something else while you’re talking to them, you know. That kind of them.

DL: Ummm.

SA: And that – that turns me right off_-------------------- Okay, I don’t need to even bother talking to you, so.

DL: Right. Right.

SA: Anyway. Which I haven’t found you’ve done after I’ve rambled on for the last

DL: Well, you’ve been very generous with you time. I’m sorry to take up so much of it.

SA: Oh, that’s fine. I’m – I’m actually – I’m on – today’s my day to work on more stuff, so –

DL: Okay.

SA: I get my son this evening, so

DL: Oh, nice.

SA: Yes.

DL: Well, I’m going to let you go.

SA: Okay.

DL: No, if you have a chance to send me the Iist of the board members

SA: Okay. Oh, right. I’m going to write this all down.

U00332

- 35 -

DL: Yes. List of board members.

SA: Right.

DL: And phone numbers if you have, because, you know, I think in fairness I should phone up some of the board members and say, are you concerned about this. You know, that [Tim] Adams is now vice president and he’s

SA: Yeah.

DL: you know, he’s – he’s, you know, this official with your organization and he has this kind of unsavory past. And, uh, you know, so, so, you know, in fairness I think I should do that.

SA: Okay. Yeah. Do you have Rick Fowler’s phone number or

DL: No. Rick who?

SA: Rick Fowler.

DL: No. Who’s Rick Fowler?

SA: He’s – he’s the chair for Maintenance and Maintenance Enforcement.

DL: Okay. Could you just kind of make me a list of those people

SA: I wiIl

DL: that I should phone.

SA: do that and I’m going to – I’m probably going to e-mail you the whole

DL: Perfect. And then the one last thing is that if you – if you are lucky enough to find the card and could fax that to me.

SA: Business – you know what is so upsetting. The old one from last year?

DL: Uh-huh.

SA: Which was more of a – it was lawyer based, right? It said paralegal services or whatever.

DL: Right.

SA: It said P.J. Paralegal Services or something. I can’t remember. I just threw that card out.

DL: Oh, well.

U00333

- 36 -

SA: Just two weeks ago.

DL: Oh, dear.

SA: Because I was cleaning out all my business cards and putting them in a new binder.

DL: Sure.

SA: So, very sad that I did that. But [girlfriend] might have one. I’ll have to check with her.

DL: Okay.

SA: So, business card and there’s one other thing. Maybe some numbers.

DL: Maybe some numbers if you have a chance.

SA: Numbers

DL: Of how many people are going to the support group and are actually being helped by ECMAS.

SA: Oh yeah, okay. Numbers and maybe somebody that [Tim] might have done work

DL: Yes. Yes. That’s the other big one. Yeah. [No record exists of his sending her any such.]

SA: Okay. Promise not to put my name.

DL: I promise. Cross my heart.

SA: Okay. I want to be your friend Donna.

DL: No, no, no, no. You can trust me.

SA: Okay.

DL: No, I

SA: Oh, yeah, famous last words.

DL: Well, what can I say? There are some journalists who lie and I’m not one of them, but [Back]

SA: I’m just kidding around, you know.

DL: Okay

SA: If you did it, you know, I’m – I’ve gone through hell in two and a half years. There’s not much anybody can do to hurt me anymore, so

U00334

- 37 -

DL: Well, I don’t want to add to your hurt, so

SA: Okay. Good. Then we’ll be friends.

DL: Okay.

SA: Okay somebody that

END OF TAPE

113249-1.WPD:Sep/17/O1

1500335

–-----I