DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (ďDLĒ) AND "Source B" (ďSBĒ)
[For reasons given elsewhere, the names of the reporter's four interviewees unnamed in the two articles have been† replaced, in this publicized version of the lawsuit documents, with descriptors and initials (as seen above). In all other ways, this version's wording remains as in the original lawsuit document.--FC]
DL:††††† . . .Donna Laframboise from the Post. How are you?
DL:††††† Iím sorry. I realize that Iím taking up your lunch hour. That's terrible.
SB:††††† Oh, that's fine.
DL:††††† Youíre not going to be able to eat. Youíll be hungry. Youíll faint on the job.
SB:††††† Thatís all right. Iím just worried my batteryís going to die on my cell phone.
DL†††††† Oh, dear. All right. Okay. Well, then Iíll get serious and stop being ------------.††††† Um, I am writing an article for the National Past and itís not something Iím terribly happy about doing. But I think it needs to be done. And itís an article about ECMAS in Edmonton. And thereís been some, some kind of weirdness going on there and I was wondering if you might just tell me what your experience with ECMAS has been lately. Whether thatís something you might be willing to chat with me about.
SB:††††† Okay. What would you like to know?
DL:††††† Well, how long have you been going to the meetings?
SB:††††† Uh, just over a year now.
DL:††††† Just over a year. Okay. And, have you found the organization to be a good organization?
SB:††††† For the most part, yes. Because it was strictly for laymen, you know. It's brainstorming, you know. Everybodyís got their ideas and, and, but now thatís changed a bit.
DL:††††† Okay. Now, just if we can step back for a minute. Why would you think that it would be an important organization for people to go to?
SB:††††† Well, well, for moral support for one thing.
SB:††††† Just to see that their, you know, youíre not alone out there.
DL:††††† Yeah. Yeah.
SB:††††† Like, it gives you some fairly decent ideas to do things, uh, whether you represent yourself or are represented by lawyer. Gives you a little better insight.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Okay. Now when you were going - or when you are going, have you been going to the support group meetings or have you been going to the kind of more general meetings or the committee meetings?
SB:††††† Iíve Ė I go more to the support group meetings, but I do go to both.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Um, and so would you say in the last year youíve gone to a meeting
††††††††††† every week or once a month or††††††††† ________________
SB:††††† Uh, just about every week, except for the last two weeks.†††† [As noted elsewhere, this
claim about SB's attendance rates was grotesquely false--but the reporter didn't know it.]†† [Back]
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.† So, most weeks in the last year.† Okay. Now, what I wanted to ask you about is Mr. Adams.
SB:††††† Oh, yeah.
SB:††††† ---------------- impressed about.
DL:††††† Pardon me?
SB:††††† Iím not very impressed about that at all.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Now, what I'm trying to establish from talking to different people whoíve been at the meetings is what role was Mr. Adams playing in the support group meetings?
SB:††††† He was giving legal advice.
DL:††††† Okay. Like in what way? Can you give me an example?
SB:††††† Well, youíd ask him a question, what legal ramifications would happen if you did this Ė like if you were to go to your ex-spouseís house and go for a visit or something like that and she slams the door in your face, you know, what do you do?
DL:††††† Right. Right. Okay.
SB:††††† So, then he would say, well, legally you're allowed to do this, this and that. [Despite
his use of the word 'advice', this person's description captures the feel of the legal information given. As in the next linked document--written before the publishing of the article alerted me to the claim that I was touting "legal advice" by Mr. Adams--I myself was careful to use words such as 'information', not 'advice':]† [Next]
SB:††††† some people are going for that. Um, however, he was also soliciting that, you know, for his advice after the meetings he wanted $100 an hour for counselling services. You know, to do some more brainstorming with his legal knowledge.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Now when you say he was soliciting, what do you mean by that?
SB:††††† Uh, well
DL:††††† Like give me an example.
SB:††††† I canít give you an example, because I donít have any names as who heís done that with, but
DL:††††† Okay. Well, did you hear him say, you know, if youíd like to talk to me after the meeting,
[First read all of what the quoted informant said:]
SB: †††† Yeah. [This "50 meetings" part wasn't published, but its gross falsity is noted later. Evidently, this informant was trying to make himself appear far more knowledgeable of ECMAS doings than he actually was.]
SB:††††† Oh, probably at least 20. [Even here, SB was wildly falsifying his attendance. But a consequence†
of the two claims, that Mr. Adams' card was given out in about half the meetings SB attended, is probably true.
Revealingly, the reporter didn't publish that it was done in only about half the meetings.]
DL:††††† At least 20?
DL:††††† Okay, so it was a common thing for him to do.
DL:††††† Itís not just something that happened once.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. So he would just Ė would he hand it out to everyone in the room or would he just
SB:††††† No, only certain people.
DL:††††† Okay. WhoĖ like would this happen in the middle of the meeting, at the end of the meeting.
SB:††††† Towards the end of the meetings.
DL:††††† Okay. So, how many people Ė if thereís 20 people in a room, how many people do you think he would give a business card to?
SB:††††† Uh, maybe one or two. [But now see what the reporter was told by her one informant who really
had attended a lot of support-group meetings, and hence did know what generally happed there:] [Next]
DL:††††† One or two.††††††††††††††††
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
SB:††††† 'Cause he kind of feels them out as to, you know, who's got money and who doesnít.
SB:††††† Like, Ďcause weíd tell our story and whatís happening in our situation and both him and Ferrel would kind ofĖ they ask about the financial aspects and Ė from that he determines, okay, you know, Iím willing to help you Ďcause you make good money.
SB:††††† Uh-huh. [affirmative]††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††
[She asks him to repeat his belief in these claims, but, as usual, says nothing that would probe whether or not he was telling the truth; she doesn't even ask him for any details of the events he was describing.]†††† [Back]
DL:††††† Okay. Did anyone ever suggest that maybe you should hire him?
SB:††††† Uh, Ferrel did. Maybe for some legal counselling. Um, but I didnít bother. I canít afford it anyway, but
DL:††††† Okay. So, now, how many times would Ferrel have made this suggestion to you?
SB:††††† Uh, just the one time. [At least, this much was admitted in the article.]
DL:††††† Just the one time?
SB:††††† Yeah.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Next]†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. What was that? During the meeting or on the phone or
SB:††††† No, it was at a meeting. But I donít remember whether it was during a meeting or afterwards.
DL:††††† Okay.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† U00339
SB:††††† 'Cause after meetings, we usually go downstairs to Albert's and kind of b.s. a little
††††††††††† bit.[A minor error, oddly made by both anonymous sources; the place is Bonnie's Lounge.]
SB:††††† And thatís what [Tim] calls his office. [As noted already, this is twice in error.]
DL:††††† Oh, yes?
SB:††††† Yeah. Itís kind of an inside joke because everybody goes down and has a beer or whatever, or a coffee, and they sit and talk some more after a meeting.
[The words following 'an inside joke' were omitted from the article, we will see next.]
DL:††††† Okay. So, itís kind of like a bar downstairs?
SB:††††† Uh-huh. [affirmative]
DL:††††† Okay. And [Tim] calls it his office?
SB:††††† Yeah. Itís more of a joke than††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
DL:††††† Okay.[At this point the reporter cuts him off, not asking whether Mr. Adams in fact did any business
there. Indeed, nowhere here does this informant say he ever saw Mr. Adams provide assistance for pay.] [Next]
SB:††††† you know.
DL:††††† Okay. Now do you know anyone who actually paid [Tim] for any of these services?
SB:††††† Not that I know of because I Ė as soon as that was mentioned Iíd kind of stay away. Because I asked [Tim] why he was so into the group and he told me flat out that he got disbarred and everything because he had sex with one of his clients or something like that. And fine, he paid his debt to society and everything, but I donít think he should be the vice-president.†† [Next]††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
DL:††††† Okay. Why don't you think that?
SB:††††† Uh, well, because it hurt our movement. I mean, I think the group itself could be
††††††††††† good as Iaymen,††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
SB:††††† you know. But as soon as you get professionals involved and then theyíre wanting money from these people and everything, creates a problem.
DL:††††† Okay. Now, do you think thereís a problem with how the group looks if itís got someone who has this kind of past involved?
SB:††††† Yes, thatís my biggest concern.
DL:††††† Okay. Um, um, okay, I donít want to put words in your mouth, so when you say itís your biggest concern that this guy has had sex with his client?
DL:††††† Okay. And you donít want to be
SB:††††† I donít want to be associated with that. I mean, I agree with our movement, 100%.
DL:††††† Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
SB:††††† However, I donít agree that he should be in this position of power with Ė because then if he talks to reporters or heís on the news or anything, if any of that gets out, then holy wow, you know, thatís a bigĖ it'II shoot our whole group down, what weíre trying to do. Heíll destroy everything just because of one person.
DL:††††† Right. Right. So, what do you think the average person would think of ECMAS if they knew that this guy was the vice-president with his past?
SB:††††† Well, weíre kind of mixed on that right now, Ďcause he just got elected vice-president there at the beginning of the month.
SB:††††† And he won by one lousy vote. We had 13 Ė or 33 voting members
SB:††††† and only 29 of them voted. And he got 15 and [the girlfriend] got 14.
SB:††††† And our president got 22 and the guy that was running against our president got 11. So there was kind of a
DL:††††† Well, thatís strange.
SB:††††† Yes. [As noted elsewhere, the reason involves absentee ballots--see the AGM minutes.]
DL:††††† Okay. Um, now, do you have any concerns about Mr. Christensen?
SB:††††† Yes and no. I donít know how to read him.
SB:††††† It's seems like heís playing me, or originally he was playing. He kind of leaves me alone now. [I left him alone only in the sense of waiting, after sending him to Ms. Malenfant, for her to research and write up his story so I could continue from there. It was some time before I realized she'd never
done so; instead she took SB and the two sisters as her own clients, to deal with their court cases.]† ---->
SB:††††† But originally it was more like he was playing me as a puppet?
DL:††††† What do you mean?
SB:††††† Uh, well, I told him my story and thereís been some very serious allegations, you know, including a murder and
DL:††††† Holy cow.
SB:††††† all the rest of it.† Yeah.† Like Iíve had some very serious allegations against me.† And he really, oh, wow, you know, itís a good story, we should do something about that. Put it on the Internet and everything and Ė which is all fine. But itís like he's, heís picking and choosing trying to do it just solely for publicity. [...hence all I can make
out of this is that, while I was waiting for Ms. Malenfant to do her part, SB decided I had abandoned him--FC]
SB:††††† Not Ė it's not so much that he even cares or want to help. Itís like heís in it for the glory or something.
SB:††††† Get his name in lights or something. I donít know.
DL:††††† Right. Right. Now, one of the things that you might not be aware of is that Mr. Christensen, or Professor Christensen, wrote a book a few years ago.
SB:††††† Right. And Iíve heard about it. I havenít read the book.
DL:††††† Yeah. I have the book right here. I think Ė let me just see when he wrote it. 1990. So, you know, ten years ago. And there is a lot in the book and, you know, is interesting. Um, there is much that I would agree with. You know. 98% of it is, you know, it's the man's opinion and you'll agree or you don't agree, but thereís a small little bit of it where he talks about sex with children and he suggests that he doesnít really think that sex with children is such a bad thing.
DL:††††† Yeah. Yeah. And, so, you know, I wouldnít have even known about this, but I started looking into [Tim] Adams.
DL:††††† And then they said, oh, but, you know, some people Iíve been talking to said, well, have you read what Professor Christensen says about sex with children?† ĎCause he seems to think heís okay. So, you know, now Iím saying, holy cow. ††††† †††††††[Back]
[Very clearly on the tape, the word 'it's' occurs just above here, not 'he's'. But usually, the interview-transcripts supplied to me by CanWest's lawyers are quite accurate--FC]
SB:††††† Yeah. I seem to remember something when I first started going a long, long time
ago. I think there was something Ė I Ė donít quote me on this
SB:††††† but I think itís possible that he said something about, um, Holland or Sweden or something like that that children are allowed to have sex at the age of 9. [Evidently, I said something to him in conversation about children in various non-Western cultures who have sex with each
other. That he read Holland or Sweden into that can perhaps be explained by his general lack of education.]
DL:††††† Yeah. I donít remember that part. Um.
SB:††††† Something to that effect.
DL:††††† Yeah.† Yeah.† He basically doesnít think itís bad if kids have sex when theyíre young.
SB:††††† Yeah. So, we had a big discussion about that, but that was such a long time I donít really
DL:††††† Oh, yes, and you had it Ė when would the discussion have taken place? In a meeting or
SB:††††† Yeah. It was Ė or awhile after a meeting.
DL:††††† Huh. Okay. After a meeting. So, kind of in the bar type of situation?
DL:††††† Okay. So you remember it actually coming up as an issue?
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Thatís interesting. Okay. Now, unfortunately when ECMAS elected [Tim] Adams last week, it became news then.† You know, if [Tim] Adams had just kind of stayed in the background and done what heís been doing for the last year,†† it wasnít so much a news story.
DL:††††† But now that heís an official with the organization it is a newstory.
DL:††††† And I have a duty as a journalist to report on the news. And if the local YMCA that has just elected this person with this past to their, to their, you know, vice- presidentís position, I would have to report on that, too, because, you know, theyíre doing stuff with kids.
SB:††††† Yeah, of course.
DL:††††† Right?† And there's a connection. So what I'm looking for is some people I can quote in my article and,you know, maybe you want your name used and maybe you canít have your name used, but who are basically saying that theyíre, theyíre a little upset, theyíre a little bit disgusted. I donít know if you would feel comfortable doing that.†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† †††††† [Back]
SB:††††† Well, I am disgusted, yes.† I donít know if putting my name is a good idea.† Thereís a few of us that are quite disgusted. I know [Source A] is quite upset and [his girlfriend] is quite upset and thereís a few more of us.
DL:††††† Right. Okay. Now, now, the other thing is that, you know, everyone makes mistakes.
DL:††††† Right? Youíre human; youíre running a volunteer organization; you have a lot on your plate; you screw up sometimes.
DL:††††† So, the question really now is Ė now you made the mistake, is ECMAS going to fix the mistake? Um, and how Ė or are they gonna just ignore it? Or are they going to take care of it? You know, itís just like that young MP in Edmonton on the weekend who, you know,
DL:††††† he screwed up; he apologized; he set things right and now itís no longer news anymore.
††††††††††† ["Source B" is another of the two male anonymously quoted informants.]
DL:††††† Because he did the right thing afterwards. So, what do you think ECMAS should do? As someone who has been a member, what do you think they should now that these have come to light?
SB:††††† Well, I thought right after the vote Ė we were so upset, we left.
SB:††††† But, I had talked to [girlfriend] the next Tuesday, or the next day, because they had the vote on the Monday.††† [In none of her recorded interviews did the reporter ask for any details of the election (say, to ask who all was included in 'we')--in this case, not even when an interviewee had raised the subject. It is very hard to believe that she didn't discuss such a crucial matter as what happened there with Ms. Malenfant. But, as we will see later, almost all records of their voluminous discussions were allegedly not kept in the first place or went mysteriously missing; no other Edmonton interviewee records were missing.] [Next]††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
SB:††††† And, Ďcause sheís the one that lost.
SB:††††† And I said, it doesnít make sense, you know, 15 to 14, just a close vote and yet 15 and 14 is 29 and yet there was 33 voting members.† I think we should have a re-vote or something because this is just not right.
SB:††††† And thatís what Iím trying to force [the girlfriend] to do.
SB:††††† And sheís Ė she doesnít know what to do. Or how to go about it. [The newly-elected secretary later told me the girlfriend phoned her and was told how the absentee ballots made up the difference.]
SB:††††† She doesnít know if we can go for a re-vote, you know.
SB:††††† ĎCause weíre all kind of new at this organization thing.
DL:††††† Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Weíre all kind of new at this. Iím writing that down. Okay. So, um
SB:††††† Where Ferrel, he seems like heís the pro because heís Ė heís saying, okay, you know, youíve got to nominate this person, or youíve got to open a discussion.† I donít even remember the terminology. lt just frustrates me so much I get upset just thinking about it.
DL:††††† Oh, no. On.
SB:††††† But, like Ferrel, he was directing the whole voting and nomination and everything because our president Bob Bouvier, he doesnít even have a clue as to how to run†† a meeting.
DL:††††† Okay. So he was sort of running the election the other night then?
SB:††††† Yeah. Yeah, in essence, yeah. He was doing it from the background, but, you what I mean?
DL:††††† Okay.†† Now, are you aware of - you said that Ferrel Christensen once mentioned† to you that you should get [Tim] to be your lawyer. Did he tell you to fire your own lawyer?
SB:††††† No, no.
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† U00345
DL:††††† No? Okay.
SB:††††† No. I didnít have a lawyer at that time.
DL:††††† Okay. Now, are you aware that he Ė of him making that suggestion to anyone else. Did you ever overhear him saying that to anyone else?
SB:††††† I couldnít say honestly for sure.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Thatís fine. Thatís fine.
SB:††††† Thereís a strong possibility, yes, but
SB:††††† because we have so many meetings and so much is said that† [Though she hid this
crucial information, the reporter published multiple things these two said that she did want to hear.]†††††† [Back]
DL:††††† Sure.† No problem.† Okay.† Okay.† Um, now, um, one of the issues is that even if you were to elect a new vice-president
DL:††††† youíve still got Mr. Adams involved in the organization. Do you think it would be okay to have him involved, or do you think you should more than Ė you should do more than Just replace him? Any ideas? Have you thought kind of ahead of it in that respect?
SB:††††† Well, I donít think he should be Ė I think he should be just one of the group, you know.
SB:††††† Sure, he could be even a voting member because he, yes, heís paid his debt to society and heís been disbarred and everything. However, I think he should, you know, give up on, on trying the financial aspects of retrieving funds from the group.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Okay, so you think he shouldnít be the v.p. and be taking money from people
DL:††††† he meets in the group.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Um, any other thoughts?
SB:††††† No, thatís about it.
SB:††††† Well, I havenít really had a chance to even talk to my lawyer about anything.
SB:††††† because thatís what Iím worried about is repercussions.
DL:††††† Okay. Then, you know what, weíre going to say, he asked not to be named. We may give you a fake name. [Contrast this with what DL had said to the grandmother.]
SB:††††† Yeah.†† [This last-interviewed informant didn't specify what kind of legal "repercussions"--whether he had in mind already ongoing custody actions, or concerns about defamation--or it was merely a pretext. And yet the reporter failed to request clarification, much less request that he do consult his lawyer.]††† †††† [Back]
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. No name. Now, just for my records, how do you spell ["Source B"]?
SB:††††† [First name being spelled out here.]
DL:††††† [Spelling of last name asked for here.]
SB:††††† [Last name being spelled out here.]
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Um, and youíve been involved for just over a year?
DL:††††† Okay. Thank you very much. Actually do you have FereIlís card?
SB:††††† FereIIís card?
DL:††††† Not Ė sorry, no Ė [Tim] Adamsí card? Would you
SB:††††† Iím not sure if I have it or not. I had it at one time because he wanted to work together with my Iawyer. My Iawyer knows him I guess. [unintelligible - static] That's when I asked [Tim]. [Tim] wouldnít really say a whole lot and then I asked him, well, howíd you get involved.
SB:††††† And, yeah, I have his card. Says [Tim] J. Adams, B.A., LLB and itís got Hon
DL:††††† H-O-N? Yeah. Hon.
SB:††††† H-O-N-S, in-brackets. Whatever that is.
DL:††††† I think itís honours, maybe.
DL:††††† Um, do you Ė when would he have given you that card?
SB:††††† Oh, when I first started going to the meetings.
DL:††††† So about a year ago or so.
DL:††††† Okay.†† I am trying to get a copy of that card because we think we might like to use it with our story. Would it be possible for you to photocopy it and fax it Ė the photocopy to me or is that something that you just canít manage?
SB:††††† No, thatís not a problem.
DL:††††† Yeah? Whew. Okay. You made my day. Let me give you my fax number.
DL:††††† Itís 410-383-2439
DL:††††† Yes. 416-383-2439.
DL:††††† And then write, you know, attention Donna L.
DL:††††† Because thereís a lot of us and, you know, it might go astray, so should get to me then.
SB:††††† Okay, Donna. I think my batteryís going to die here.
DL:††††† Okay. Thank you so much.
SB:††††† Not a problem.
DL:††††† You have a good day.
SB:††††† You too.
END OF CONVERSATION