TELEPHONE INTERVIEW

TELEPHONE INTERVIEW

DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (“DL”) AND [The Grandmother] [“TG”]

[As explained elsewhere, the names of the reporter's four interviewees unnamed in the two articles have been replaced, in this version of the lawsuit documents, with descriptors and initials (as seen above). In all other ways, this version's wording remains as in the original lawsuit document.--FC]

[phone ringing]

TG: Hello.

DL: Hello. May I speak to Mrs. [the grandmother], please?

TG: Speaking.

DL: Hi, it’s Donna from the National Post. How are you?

TG: Oh, I’m fine, thank you, Donna. I’m sorry my voice is still a little bit creaky, but I just got out of bed.

DL: Oh, no. I’m sorry.

TG: No, no, that’s okay. I have to get up anyway ‘cause I have to be at a job by 9:00.

DL: Oh, dear. Well, that’s okay. No problem. Well, we won’t – I won’t take too much of your time.

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: Um, I am – have the sad duty to kind of do a little news story about some of the, um, not so great things that have been going on in ECMAS, you know, --------------------

TG: Yes.

DL: And, um, I was wondering if you could just spare a few minutes to kind of tell me in your own words –what I’m looking for is – I’m concerned about Mr. Adams and I’m wondering if you could tell me how long you’d been in the organization, what role Mr. Adams has played and, you know, whether you have any concerns about him

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: having become vice president recently.

TG: Well, I’ve belonged to the organization I would think at least about three years.

DL: Three years? Okay.

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: Okay.

U00362

-2-

TG: And, of course, at first, you’re new; you don’t know what to expect. So, you’re running to this meeting, that meeting, the next’ meeting, the whole nine yards.

[TG attended few ECMAS meetings over the years; she is referring mostly to MERGE meetings.]

DL: Okay.

TG: And, then, of course, [Tim] Adams, but you don’t know too much about him.

DL: What’s he doing when he’s there? Is he just part of the group with everyone else?

TG: Well, basically. Yeah, he’s just basically part of the group. And different people, because he’s a lawyer, go up to speak to him and what not. And, um, that’s about the extent of it.

DL: Okay. Did you ever find out that he was a disbarred lawyer? Did you know that? Or when did you find that out?

TG: I found that out, I would say, almost a year ago. [On the only occasion she ever met him.]

DL: Okay. How did you find that out?

TG: Uh, one evening, there was a – what was it now? A support group meeting.

DL: Okay.

TG: So, this individual that I know who doesn't have a ride I said I would take him and we’ll go to the support group meeting. So, then we went to the meeting and after the meeting they decided to go downstairs for coffee, but there was no place for coffee, so we went into the bar part.

DL: Uh-huh.

TG: So, anyway, this fellow that I drove, plus myself and [Tim] Adams were sitting side- by-side. So at that point I found out that he was disbarred and he basically told us why. But, you know, it just went over my head.

DL: So what did he say? Do you remember?

TG: Well, be basically said that he was representing a young prostitute, 16-year-old prostitute, and one of the lawyers in the firm reported him and that he had had sex with this, I believe she was 16, the prostitute that he was representing. [As for Ms.

Malenfant, we'll note later that she told the reporter I had informed her of his disbarment six months earlier. In fact, I took her to Mr. Adams' home-office back then,

where he himself told her about it.] [Back]

DL: Uh-huh.

TG: And, um, but anyway, like I said, it basically went over my head. Because I thought, well, I’m not going to use you anyway. But prior to this all happening, Farrel Christensen, because we were in the midst of court happenings and we had a lawyer, of course, that was very costly, and he constantly kept calling. Why don't you quit your lawyer; go to [Tim] Adams. Go to [Tim] Adams. [Next]

U00363

-3-

DL: So, he would call you and say this?

TG: Ferrel?

DL: Yeah.

TG: Oh, time and time again.

DL: On the phone? Like call on the phone?

TG: On the phone. Yes. Uh-hum.

DL: So, it wasn’t like it just happened to be something he mentioned once or twice at a meeting. He would phone to talk about this?

TG: Oh, yes, definitely. Because he knew we were in the midst of seeing lawyers and taking our – my son actually – taking his case to court. [Note that her frequent word 'we' is not referring to her son but to her sister. The two sisters did everything together in trying to help him.]

DL: Okay.

TG: And, of course, complaining about the cost of lawyer fees and so on and so forth.

[Back]

DL: Right.

TG: And, so he would, you know, he would phone us here - or me. I would talk to him most because my son was off teaching. [This is the only place in either sister's interview that even hints--falsely--that I ever spoke to the son about Mr. Adams, contrary to the article's claim that I had made

"attempts to persuade her son". It also sounds here as if he lived with TG; if that is true, I was never aware of it. And I rarely phoned her; I usually called her sister.

TG's 'most' may have been a guess that he answered at least once when I called.] [Back] And, you know, go to [Tim] Adams. Go to

[Tim] Adams. He can advise you. He can do this. So I just - I never did call him. I never called [Tim]. I never called [Tim]. So then one day I thought, well, I may as well call him and get this thing over with. So I phoned him. And, I basically told him the situation of my son and his little boy’s story and the whole bit and so anyway, well, yes, we could come and see him, but he charges $90 an hour and so then I thought, well, this is kind of stupid. If he’s going to charge us $90 an hour, he can’t even repre-, but then he also mentioned I can’t represent you in court.

DL: Mmm.

TG: And I thought, well, this is stupid. Pay him $90. He can’t even represent you in court. You might as well pay another $50, $60 to your lawyer that can represent you. [This failure to see that by far the greatest savings in self-representation arise from paying for many fewer hours appears to reflect serious lack of understanding in general on the part of TG.]

DL: Right.

TG: So we never did go to [Tim] Adams.

DL: Okay.

TG: But it was – the issue was certainly pushed by Ferrel to us. Go to [Tim] Adams, Go to [Tim] Adams. U00364

-4-

DL: Now, do you think that this happened – this kind of conversation happened like

three times, or ten times or 20 times?

TG: Where Ferrel would call?

DL: Yeah. Yeah.

TG: Oh, I would say at least 5, 6, 7– every time I saw him he would mention it. And, of course, at that time, we were going to meetings and all this kind of stuff, but – and doing little walks in front of Anne McLellan’s office or various places. [For the record,

the two events at McLellan's office were long after the period when I urged that she talk to Mr, Adams about hiring him. If I mentioned his name at those times, it was

in regard to free information.]

DL: Right

TG: But I would say at least 6, 8 times.

DL: Okay. Over a period of

TG: Well, I would – probably, oh, what can I say now

DL: I’m sorry.

TG: Never mind. Oh, this is hard.

DL: Yeah.

TG: But several months. I can’t say just how many, but every chance – every opportunity he seemed to have, he would – call [Tim] Adams.

DL: Okay. So, so, so, but you, so, you actually phoned [Tim] and spoke to [Tim] and [Tim] – it was then that [Tim] told you, I can’t represent you and I charge $90 an hour.

TG: He said that he’s disbarred and, as a result, he will give advice. [Still seeming not to have understood that the suggestion was for her son to represent himself.]

DL: Right.

TG: But he does charge $90 an hour. But I could not – and I said, but you can’t represent us in court then. And he said, no, I could not represent you in court. Well, at that point, that didn’t make sense to me anymore.

DL: Now, did he ask you what your financial situation was? Like, did he say, well, you know, um, you know – what I’m trying to get at is – is when I spoke to [Tim] Adams yesterday and asked him how much he charged, he said to me that that totally depended on how much money people had and if they had no money, he just did it for free.

TG: Well, possibly that’s the case. But, in my situation, I asked him how much he charged.

DL: Okay.

U00365

-5-

TG: And he said $90 an hour. And I understand – now he’s charging $100.

DL: Do you know anyone else that I might talk to who could – who’s used him or who has had a similar experience to you who’s, you know, maybe didn’t use him, but has been urged to use him?

TG: Urn

DL: Can you think of anyone?

TG: A David –oh, what’s his last name here? David, uh, McCallum, I think his name is.

DL: McCaIlum? Yeah.

TG: I believe his last name is McCallum.

DL: Okay.

TG: And I think I have his phone number, too. Well, I guess I better have, or else it won’t do you much good.

DL: You’re a sweetie.

TG: Okay. Oh, this - my name will not be mentioned, right? I’m off the record?--->

DL: Okay. I was going to ask you about that.

TG: Yeah. Um, yeah, I’d rather be off the record because I understand there’s lots of trouble brewing and the whole bit in regards to him being our vice president. Which I don’t agree with. I don’t want him in there. I don’t think Ferrel should be in there either. But that’s my opinion. [Wants her name left out due to trouble in the group (Malenfant had cast absentee ballots for her in the election); is clearly saying she wants to avoid that trouble.] --->

DL: Okay. Now, just to clarify for a minute. Off the record means that whatever you tell me I won’t print. But

TG: Oh, you can print what I tell you, but not my name. --->

DL: Not your name. Okay.

TG: No. Please don’t.

DL: Okay. May I just ask you why. You know, I don’t want to pressure you, I just – my editor’s going to say, well, why doesn’t that person want their name used? And why doesn’t that person want their name used? --->

TG: Because I wasn’t at the election meeting but I understand there was a big kerfuffle there. [Again she says the reason she wants her name left out is troubles in the group--but doesn't mention her court case until later in the interview, after more pressure over use of her name.] [Back]

And because different things have come out about Ferrel having written this book and I haven’t read it myself, but pieces and talking to some people, I understand that, um, we’re fighting on behalf of children, right,

U00366

-6-

DL: Yeah.

TG: that are abused, etc. and so on and so forth. Ferrel’s ideas are almost that he thinks it’s okay for young children to have sex with each other, young children to be exposed to sex and all this kind of stuff. Well, to me, I don’t believe that.

DL: Okay.

TG: I believe that we are trying to fight this type of thing. I mean, a lot of our fathers within the group are charged with sex abuse assaults – allegations – sexual abuse of children.

DL: And you think some of those allegations are true or no?

TG: Or no. No. I haven’t heard of one case within the group that are true. Not one.

DL: So they’re false allegations then?

TG: And I would say in most cases, false allegations. I have not read the court reports of the individuals or anything else, but knowing some of the – I know of one person for sure. He was charged with it and, um, I know for sure he’s not guilty. The mother of my son – or of my grandson – made the same allegation against my son.

DL: Right.

TG: He had to go down and clear himself and the whole bit. So, as a result, I truly believe – there might be the odd one – I don’t know everybody within the group.

DL: Okay.

TG: But, I truly believe that the biggest majority are false allegations. And, because having found out that Ferrel has written a book of this nature, I’m really sceptical about Ferrel Christensen. [Just above here, on p. 5, the grandmother says she hadn't read it.]

DL: Right.

TG: Very sceptical.

DL: So, do you think him being involved in the group harms the group and harms fathers who go there.

TG: Yes. Because I truly believe that – like I have made up my mind I am not going back to any meetings. I’ve had it. [Back]

DL: Okay.

Th: I will not go back to meetings.

DL: So you’re quitting the group?

U00367

-7-

TG: Well, I bought my membership. Unless there’s changes made and what not, yes,

I’m basically not going back to any meetings.

DL: Okay.

TG: I still have my membership for a year, but no, I will not.

DL: Okay. Because you don’t want to be associated?

TG: With that type of thinking.

DL: Right. Okay. Okay. So

TG: And then him insisting that people go to [Tim] Adams and now [Tim] Adams being the vice president of the group as welt, I think that’s – I think it’s terrible.

DL: Right.

TG: I think it’s absolutely terrible.

DL: Right. Right. Okay, now, I don't want to pressure you, and so I'm not going to ever say this again to you, but I want to explain that from our perspective [Referring to her

attempts earlier in this interview to get TG to allow use of her name in print, the reporter tries again. It would

appear that, having already granted anonymity to her first informant, she was getting worried about all the rest.]

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: when we write a newspaper article

TG: Right.

DL: its important for us to have some people who are willing to have their names used.

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: Because otherwise it looks like we could be making it up, you know. Well, this person, unnamed source; that person, unnamed source. So, if you change your mind

TG: Well, I'll tell you what you can do. You can use my second name. Monica. But not my last name.

DL: Okay. Okay.

TG: You can do that.

DL: Well, no, I need a - you know, I need to be able to put a real name.

TG: Yeah. Yeah, you can use my second name Monica.

1100368

-8-

DL: Right No, no, I'm sorry. That's not - either I - you know, I use the name that you

known by in the community

TG: Oh.

DL: or I don't identify you at all. So, you know, that's - and that's okay and I respect that. All I'm saying is that if you decide that you

TG: Okay.

DL: feel strongly enough about it and that there is no risk to you or to your son by being

identified - because what I'm looking for is some people who are the good guys

here. Who are being the conscience of the group.

TG: Oh.

DL: Who are willing to stand up publicly and be, you know, and say these things 'cause otherwise what I have is a lot of people who don't want to be identified. And I could use one or two who - who

TG: Right.

DL: are willing to.

TG: No, I can understand your position. And the only reason I really don't want my name used is because my son's case is still before the courts

DL: Okay. [After this excuse for anonymity arose, the reporter did not press either of the next two

informants for use of their names.]

TG: and I have a feeling that there could be some repercussions,

DL: Okay. Okay.

TG: you know, behind the scenes.

DL: Yeah. Yeah. All right

TG: And this is why I - I really don't want my name used.

DL: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. I'm never going to mention that again.

TG: Okay. [Back]

DL: Have you found Mr McCallum’s number?

TG: Yes, I have.

DL: Ooh, ooh. I’m so excited.

U00369

-9-

TG: 992

DL: 992

TG: 94

DL: 94

TG: 10

DL: 10

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: Okay.

TG: Now, I don’t know. My understanding is he was using [Tim] McCallum,

DL: Okay. [The phone records indicate McCallum was never called by the reporter.]

TG: but if he still is or not or if it has that type of an effect on him as it has on me, I don’t know. But, I know he is the one that told me about this book that Ferrel has written.

[McCallum was another person somewhat influenced by Malenfant; but he, too, evidently never saw the book.]

DL: Oh, really.

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: Oh, okay.

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: Okay. Interesting. Now, so, did you ever see [Tim] Adams handing out his business card at ECMAS meetings?

TG: Yes.

DL: All the time?

TG: In fact I have three of them.

DL: You have three of them,

TG: Three cards.

DL: Could I – I – I’m trying to get my hands on those cards, because we think we might like to use them as, you know, as an illustration to go with these articles.

TG: Oh, uh-huh.

U00370

-10-

DL: Now, now, there’s two ways we could do it.

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: One is you could photocopy the cards and

TG: Well, I have his – I think I’ve only got one card left, however.

DL: Or, I could send a courier a just pick it up and then I could always send the card back to you if you wanted it.

TG: Oh, no, no. I don’t care if I ever get the card back.

DL: Okay. Um, what’s the easiest way? Is it easy for you to photocopy and fax it to me? Or should I send a courier?

TG: Well, I can go down and photocopy it and fax it to you. It’ II be through a business place.

DL: Oh, that’s okay.

TG: But I can do that.

DL: Do you mind?

TG: And then you might get it that much sooner.

DL: Yeah. Would you mind doing that?

TG: Uh, oh, yeah, here it is.

DL: Do you have time to do that today?

TG: Uh, yes, I do. Um, yeah, I should be able to do that for you.

DL: Oh, you’re a sweetheart. You are a sweetheart.

TG: Okay. And what is your fax number, Donna?

DL: It’s 416

TG: 416

DL: 383

TG: 383

DL: 2439

1100371

–11–

TG: 2439.

DL: And then just put attention Donna L. In kind of – in big letters. Like, you can scribble it on the same page even.

TG: Uh-huh.

DL: ----------- copy page. Just ‘cause there’s about 300 of us here and sometimes

TG: Oh.

DL: the faxes kind of go astray, so

TG: Oh, okay. Okay.

DL: Um, you know, ‘cause I’m very, very eager to get that. Because, as I say, we may very well use it.

TG: Oh, okay. Sure.

DL: So that would be wonderful. Thank you so much.

TG: Yeah, okay. Sure, I can do that. No problem.

DL: So, he gave out – now was it just one occasion at a meeting where you saw him giving out his cards or would he do it often or

TG: Uh, well, in my case, uh, that’s was prior to knowing all this stuff. I asked him for his card.

DL: Okay. Okay.

TG: And I haven’t been attending meetings, so l don’t know whether it was on a regular basis or not that he was. [Since Adams had been at the support group regularly for two years, this is an admission that the grandmother had been to very few of those. In fact, she went to one.]

DL: Okay.

TG: But I understand he’s been to the support group meetings on a regular basis and, of course, Ferrel has been, go see [Tim], go see [Tim], type of thing, so as a result, I would think he’s probably passing out his cards, but I can’t – I can’t say that for sure.

DL: Okay. Well, that’s important to know. Yeah. Yeah.

TG: But, only because I have not been going to the meetings.

DL: How long – when did you stop going to the meetings?

[Here the reporter mis-directs the thread by assuming 'has stopped going' instead of 'has rarely gone'. The grandmother attended even the monthly member meetings only a few times, always with her sister. (I am aware of their attendance because I knew them well and because I attended all MERGE and ECMAS meetings; and, as noted later, I arranged MERGE meetings around their tight schedules so that they could go to them.)]---->

TG: To be truthful, it was – I would say, oh, several months ago now. U00372

-12-

DL: Okay. Before Christmas?

TG: Yes. Yes.

DL: Okay.

TG: Uh-huh. Yeah.

DL: Okay. So during those meetings that you did go to for the three years, right? You don't have any particular, very particular clear memories of [Tim] going around the

room handing out his card for example?

TG: Uh, no, I don’t. I can’ say as I do.

DL: That’s fine.

TG: But all know is that different people I would see talking to [Tim] and, um, obviously at that point he probably did give out his card. [For her part, the grandmother is trying to give the

reporter what she wants, even being misleading in not correcting the reporter's plural 'meetings'. For since [Tim]

Adams didn't (until that 2001 AGM) go to the monthly meetings, she saw him only once--at the single support meeting she attended. Years later, she told my lawyer she had never gone to many ECMAS meetings:] [Next]

DL: Right.

TG: Because of Ferrel’s insistence – at least he was very persistent with me

DL: Right.

TG: with us, I should say, as far as, go to [Tim] Adams.

DL: Right. Right. Okay. Well, you’ve been very generous with your time this morning. Thank you so much for your help.

TG: Oh, you’re most welcome. And I’ll try and get that in the fax as soon as I can. I have to – I don’t have one here, but I think there’s one just down the road here from my place.

DL: Wonderful. You have a great day.

TG: Thank you.

DL: Bye-bye.

TG: Bye now.

END OF CONVERSATION

112543-1.WPD;Sep/10/Ol

U00373