TELEPHONE
INTERVIEW
DONNA
LAFRAMBOISE ("DL") AND BOB BOUVIER ("BB")
[Note: the audiotape from which this
document is said to have been transcribed was reportedly missing by the time of
the examinations for discovery. Thus, none of the crucial wordings below can be
verified.]
[phone ringing]
Receptionist:
Good morning, ____________ Systems.
DL: Hi,
there. May I speak to Mr. Bouvier, please?
R: Sure.
One moment.
BB: Good
morning. Bob here.
DL: Hi,
there. It's Donna. I'm sorry.
I'm late. I just got off the
phone with Michael Bears. [Mike LaBerge]
BB: That's
okay. No problem.
DL: Um, I know you probably have a limited
time. I did leave a message for you yesterday.
BB: Okay.
DL: But I guess I left it on the I left it
on the 988-4015.
BB: Oh, okay. Yeah.
DL: So, I don't want you to think that I
wasn't going to call you, 'cause I did leave a message and I guess it was just
the wrong place. [The former president had offered to
give
BB: Okay. Yeah, that's our message line and
that we have a fellow that clears that off, etc. and I guess he was working
last night, so, he didn't get to it. [Told by the former vice
DL: Okay.
So, why don't you go first?
BB: Okay.
I guess I don't really know what is involved in this story. I'm hearing this
second, third hand.
DL: Yeah.
BB: Um,
I believe it has to do with [Tim] Adams and Louise Malenfant. And, um, my guess, from what I understand,
it could be very destructive to what we're trying to do here in Edmonton
DL: Right.
BB: and,
um, I guess I would urge you to find out more details. FF00487
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DL: Okay.
BB: It
sounds like [unintelligible static]. And my understanding of the
situation is that there was a, I guess some problems between Ferrel Christensen
and Louise that has not gone well and it, from what appears to me, it seems
like she's acting in a very vindictive manner because of her soured
relationship with Ferrel. And,
she has, um, basically at some point she(?) gave me some information about the
situation. I don't know really the details. I'd asked her to keep you know,
to try to work it out between the two of them and, you know, basically, that I
didn't want to be refereeing their problems.
DL: Right.
BB: And,
um, she thought it turns it seems like she's turned around and she's
looking to basically discredit him for whatever reason. And part of that, I think, because Ferrel is
friends with [Tim] and they both go to the support group, I think she's
attacking [Tim] as well.
DL: Okay.
BB: So,
I guess, the thing to realize is that I don't think [Tim]'s even met her more
than once. I'm not sure why she's she's doing this. [Tim] Adams I don't
personally attend the support groups. I've
attended a couple of times. It's on my day of access, though. Probably the best
person to talk about what [Tim] does in the support group is Jiggs or James
Haiden who
DL: Sorry,
how do you spell that?
BB: The
last name is Haiden, H-A-l-D-E-N.
DL: Okay.
H-A-I-D-E-N. Would you have a number for him?
BB: Um,
not I'd have to get it at my desk. I could e-mail that to you.
DL: Okay. [Next]
BB: If you give me your e-mail, I'll just
when I go back to my desk, I can e-mail it to
you.
DL: Okay. Do you want my e-mail now or
BB: Sure:
DL: Okay.
Its dlaframboise. So, it's my first initial, followed immediately by my last
name. So, D for Donna-L-A-F as in Frank-R-A-M as in Mary-B as in Bob-O-I-S as
in Sam-E. And then it's at National Post, which is one word dot com.
FF00488
-3-
BB: Okay. Right. So, my understanding is that what is being said here is not even true. We had a meeting last night where [Tim] basically offered his resignation and but, you know, what has been said in an e-mail to me basically is that she's claiming that [Tim] has had sex with a minor. Well, in discussing this with [Tim] last night, he says that he was charged, but it wasn't with sex with a minor, it was some verbal proposition, or something like that. And, so I think she's not representing the facts correctly. Or even making sure that she's got the facts. Um, as far I've been involved with this group for a couple of years and [Tim] Adams has been involved, you know, longer than l am. And, probably before theI believe before the support group started. He's going through divorce himself, or has gone through divorce. He's a loving father with his children. [Back]
He's gotI believe he's got custody
of his children. Um, what I also hear that has been said that's he's been
giving legal advice. And my understanding - you'll have to check this with James because he'll know - but my understanding is that [Tim] acts more in a
capacity to warn people when advice is not appropriate. Some people in these
support groups say things that are not [unintelligible static]
I have understood say things that are not the proper things to say and he will
say, wait a minute, you can't say that, or you don't
DL: Okay.
Okay.
BB: Um, you know, and I think that, you know, I think is simply a very vindictive situation here that is going on. And, you know, I really don't know, you know, you know, he's offered his resignation and without this particular support, we'll have to I don't know what we're going to do with the support group. Um, there are some people in there that will mouth off and say things and we'll either have to ______________ or keep their mouths shut or we'll have to disband it. I don't know. You know, without somebody there to protect ourself from somebody giving some bad advice, we could be in trouble. [...he knew the danger of misinformation being given out there.] [Back]
So, I personally would not like to see [Tim] out of the group. Anyway, I guess, the other to realize is that we had a recent election. And it was pretty obvious to most people involved that there was a coup attempt by Louise Malenfant. ---> I think it was again with her vindictiveness here. And, you know, I think that, you know, she's basically, you know, informed me of her problems with Ferrel and Ferrel's pretty much kept me out of the loop of the whole thing and, you know, basically I've you know, I'm going through a divorce myself and there's a lot of things we would like to accomplish as a organization and I really don't have time for petty squabbles between people and, you know, I really wish they would kind of deal with it on their own. But, I don't think that's the case with Louise. So the other thing that I've heard that was mentioned last night in the meeting is that there are a lot of sexist feminist people at the Edmonton Journal that would love to destroy us. And I think that an article here to basically discredit ECMAS or to I think would -------->
FF00488
-4-
basically do a lot of harm. And, you know, I wish that wouldn't be part of
that if that's what's going to happen.
Um.
DL: What do you could I ask you
what you what's your day job? What do you do for a living? [DL doesn't ask about Malenfant's coup
attempt, instead changing the subject...] --->
BB: I'm
a engineer. [This must be
a mistranscription. Mr. Bouvier uses the word 'an' properly in his speech, as
the transcriptions of all his other words below indicate.]
DL: Engineer.
Okay. Um, okay, let me
respond in a few ways. Um, one is that, as a journalist, one of the things I
hear often
BB: Uh-huh
DL: and I feel that I'm hearing it here,
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: is I'm seeing someone watching the messenger getting shot. Okay?
[...and insisting
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: The
messenger is not me. The messenger is Louise.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Okay?
Now, Louise did not create the [Tim] Adarns, Ferrel Christensen
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: situation
in ECMAS Edmonton. Okay? She is not responsible for that.
BB: Sure.
DL: All
she has done is bring it to public attention by by relaying her concerns to
me. Okay? Louise is the messenger. Now, I'm sure Louise has her difficulties
has had her personal difficulties with Ferrel Christensen and, for all I know,
with [Tim] Adams. And, you know, I'm sure
they've got their personal problems. But, Louise did not invent [Tim] Adams or [Tim]
Adams' relationship to ECMAS and she did not invent his unsavory past.
Now, let me tell you what I know about [Tim] Adams' past
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: and
what is going to be in the newspaper article. And it comes directly from the
Court of Appeal decision. What happened was [Tim] Adams appealed his disbarment.
BB: Uh-huh. FF00490
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DL: It went to the Court of Appeal and three
judges heard his arguments. He hired Eddy
Greenspan, a very, very capable
lawyer
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: to
argue his position and all three Court of Appeal judges didn't buy it. Okay? There's a ten-page decision outlining
what the facts of the case are.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: The
facts of the case are, first of all, [Tim] Adams this is his second conviction
for prostitution-related offences.
BB: Okay.
DL: He plead guilty to hiring a prostitute
when he was an articling student.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Okay?
He then becomes a lawyer. He has a client who is 16 years old. She is a minor.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: And he is
representing, not only her, but he's representing her boyfriend who's in jail.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: He is in as a position of trust because he
is her lawyer.
BB: Sure.
DL: Okay? He violates that position of trust
by inviting her to have sex with him.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: From
now that's the you know, that's the kind of the Law Society's perspective
on it. My perspective is this is a man who is twice her age,
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: he's her lawyer, he's supposed to be helping
her. She's vulnerable, she is 16-
years-old. She's obviously in a mess because she's a prostitute. And his response is not to try to find her a
job or help her get an apartment, his job is to hire her to have sex with her
to exploit her.
BB:
Uh-huh. FF00491
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DL: Okay? This is not good judgment.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: And
it is not suggested this is someone with altruistic motives. It suggests this
is someone who sees a vulnerable person and tries to take advantage of them.
BB: Okay.
DL: Okay? Those are the facts of the case. He
plead guilty to trying to hire a prostitute.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: He got a 15-month conditional sentence.
BB: Yeah.
DL: So he has
two criminal convictions. Now, to be fair, it does not
appear that the first one involved a client or an underage person. Okay? But it's not a situation where the man made
one mistake [unintelligible static]. Okay? Now, the larger
context that I don't need to tell you is that there are lots of feminists out
there who say that the fathers' rights the non-custodial parents' movement
is all a bunch of bunk. That these groups are just covering up for deadbeat
dads
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: and they're covering up for sex offenders
and child abusers and molesters. That these guys claim that they're falsely
accused, but they're not really, and these groups are covering up for them. [In this indirect way, to Mr. Bouvier,
the reporter first claimed a
having both Adams and people falsely
accused of child sex abuse in ECMAS. To all interviewees
even hinted that that act, or my
book, reflected
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Well, when you have a guy with that kind
of unsavory past
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: very
central to your organization, that gives those people all kinds of ammunition.
You know, it's only a matter of time before someone else noticed it. It just so
happens that Louise came to me first. And I would suggest to you that
because I'm sympathetic to the movement that I'm going to be a lot kinder
that you're luckier with you're going to be, you know, treated better with me
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: than if, you know, some wild feminist at the Edmonton Journal got a hold of it, or Michelle Lansberg got ahold of it. Because they would say, look-it, everything we've been saying about these fathers' rights groups is true. Look-it, they have this guy. He's their bloody vice president and he's got this record of having sex with minors. [Back]
FF00492
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BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Okay?
That's how it looks. The other problem is that you've also got Ferrel
Christensen.
BB: Uh-buh.
DL: Ferrel Christensen by himself would not be
a news story. [Back] But [Tim] Adams
and
Ferrel
Christensen, who has said some pretty disturbing things which suggests he thinks that having sex with kids is not so bad in his
book. You put those two people together in your organization, that makes your
organization look very bad. [Next]
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: So,
the question is, do you continue to say that these people are a valuable part of your organization or do you
take steps to clean up your image. [She offers just two options to ECMAS: let us
continue as "part of your organization", or "take steps to clean
up your image".] [Next]
BB: Right.
And I guess I don't know. My, I have not read Ferrel Christensen's book and
I'm not aware of that. I have been involved with the book for a couple of years. At no time have I heard anything regarding his
philosophies or anything to do with sex at all. [Obvious speech or typing error: should
be 'involved with the group'] [Next]
DL: Right.
BB: I can tell you that probably he's done more work,
helping through the help line, etc., he's invest -- he's put in a lot of his money, etc. I have never
seen him profit one nickel on anything.
DL: I
know. I know. [Back]
BB: No, I guess
DL: I agree with you. I understand all that of
that.
BB: So it's like, um
DL: But, you know what, if there was a women's
group
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: and
they were volunteering and they had lots of good people and, but they had
someone who, you know, had sex with a 16-year-old male prostitute and they
thought that was okay, it would not look good. It does not look good for you
guys.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: And that is the problem. It's an optics
issue.
BB: Yeah. FF00493
-8-
DL: It's what, you know, how does your credibility look? These guys are going to you for help. The last thing they
need in their life is to go to a group for help and end up associating with these people who have one has an
unsavory past
[Again she suggests that
"these people" should not be allowed to go on "associating
with" those coming for help.]
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: And, two, has
published out there in the real world some questionable views about sex with
kids. [As
this thread continues, note that she never suggests that the president look at
the book
BB: Well,
I guess, I, I do, you know, I guess if I had, you know, 40 people that were all
working hard and were able to do things in our society,
then, yeah, it would be a
moot issue. I think, that we don't need the publicity
and all this kind of stuff that you know, we have no funding.
DL: I
know that.
BB: We have done
everything on our own money. We have
started a support group. We have a men's help line. There's people that give countless hours to
these things to help out other people. We have the majority of our people
are fathers and we have a number of women on our organization as well.
DL: Right.
BB: But
the majority of the fathers are in dire straits.
DL: I
know.
BB: Uh,
they do not have the time to put in to push a lot of things forward. With
people like Ferrel who can devote more time because he's retired, we get things
done that would not otherwise get done. Um, his, you know, this revelation of his book, etc.
that has never
been part of anything, according to our organization. Well, I
suppose we could, you know, take him out of the group and we could take [Tim] out of the group and I'm sure, you know, in a McCarthy sort of way, we could
find all kinds of things about other people, proven or otherwise, and we could
hold investigations. But, I guess,
that's not what I'm about. I'm about trying to help people. And trying to help
change the system. And if I now have to go and do a cleansing of, you know,
various people on allegations and have tribunals, etc.
DL: Okay.
Wait a minute. Wait a minute, though,
BB: and,
you know,
DL: you're
suggesting
BB: nothing will happen.
DL: You're
suggesting that this is in dispute. It is not in dispute
BB: Uh-huh. FF00494
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DL: that
[Tim] Adams has been disbarred and he's been disbarred for those reasons.
If you want I can fax you the 10-page
BB: Well,
that's, that's, you know, okay
DL: thing,
okay? You're not holding a tribunal or deciding someone's guilt or innocence.
BB: No,
but
DL: That
is not in dispute.
BB: Not,
but I guess I I certainly was not aware of the details, etc. before the
election. I heard that he was disbarred. I heard something about it being a
set-up and that etc. I never heard of a previous incident. Um, and, but, you
know, I know that we have
a vindictive woman that's running loose here that's trying to discredit people
and take out revenge against them. I guess
DL: Again, you're going back to shooting the
messenger. If there was
BB: True.
DL: there
BB: Yes.
DL: then
I wouldn't be having this conversation with you. Louise has merely, you know,
made it, made it,
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: you know, brought it to light. The fact
that you've got a problem.
BB:
Uh-huh.
DL: So,
Louise is not the problem. Your, you know, your organization's personnel is the
problem. And, you know, if it wasn't Louise who mentioned it, it would have
been someone else.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Sooner or later if you've got
discreditable people associated with you, it's going to become an issue.
BB: So,
I, you know, basically if this is the case, like I say, [Tim] has offered his
resignation.
DL: Was
it accepted last night?
FF00495
- 10-
BB: No,
it was not accepted. We have to review
it a bit more. Basically it was to be we were hoping to contact you last
night
DL: Uh-huh.
BB: and
talk to you and see what the situation was, again, most people are getting this
third and fourth hand.
DL: Right.
BB: And
then from there we would decide ______________ or not.
DL: Sorry,
I just didn't catch the last bit. From there you would
BB: Decide
whether to accept [Tim]'s resignation or not.
DL: Okay.
BB: You
know, some of these things are revelations to people in the group.
DL: Right.
BB: And,
I guess that, you know, we [Tim] as well and everything I've heard about [Tim], what he's
done he's given like countless hours to people to help them out.[This is just one of the places where
the reporter was told of all Mr. Adams' valuable work.] [Back]
If,
you know, he says that he would resign and that that is, I guess, you know, I
think that if that's what it takes, you know, then we'll do that, you know. And
I guess that I'm when I'm talking a little bit ago is, you know, what could
we do to stop this, I guess. Or to prevent this in the future if this is what
we're up against. I'm, I don't know it's it's a little bit disappointing,
Donna, you know. There's people that come to our group. They'll help out a little
bit. A lot of them it's hard to even find the time the main people in our
group like this James Haiden, etc. He does the support group meetings on
Tuesday. And, you know, he's just it's
taken a heck of a lot of his time. He's got, you know, children to raise. He's
got a job, you know, etc. It's pretty tough. And, you know, we can just, you
knowI know we could lose [Tim], you know, as V.P. which I thought he would, you
know, with his capabilities might do some might be a big help in some areas.
We don't have enough people. You know, we have elections except for this election with this coup
attempt, basically it's all by acclamation typically. Most people, you
know, we can't get enough people to hold the positions. Very rarely we get
enough people to do the work. It's a tough thing to move this forward. And I'm
I'm, you know, a little bit upset that, you know, that this dissension
between these two people in the group has led to something that's going to
ultimately if, in the best of situations, it looks like we would lose these
people from helping out. And the worst of, is that there be this story that
runs in the Post that associates ECMAS
and tries to make us out like a group that are harbouring these type of people
and that, you know, that we are basically a bunch of people that are not
lawfully accused of things and we're just hiding people who are falsely
claiming that they're falsely accused. Um, I'm falsely accused of raping my
wife and it has given her the upper hand in every bit of thing during this
divorce and it's an absolutely terrible thing. And I this system is FF00496
11
completely biased and it needs to be changed. And the
road ahead of us is very
hard. And, you know, I've read a lot of your stories in
the Post and I'm quite impressed by them. And I'm I think that a story to
tries to, you know, tear apart ECMAS on the grounds of the past of particular
people in the group I think will just serve to make it that much more difficult
and I think that I think it's not well served. I think that if [Tim]'s
offering his resignation and if that's the, you know, the deal here then I
think that, you know, we'll probably accept it. And I think that [Tim] has personal
reasons, and I think that we feel I think the consensus in the meeting last night was, we feel like we're being blackmailed here. That Louise
is upset with FerreI and she's going to basically take it out on them to go to
her good friend The National Post and get a story written up and basically pay
them up. [Back]
DL: Okay.
Well, I have to tell you that I feel quite insulted by that interpretation
BB: Well,
I
DL: because
I would not write a story unless there was something to write about.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Okay?
BB: True. But I guess,
I don't know what this story is and
DL: The story is that you guys have exercised
incredible poor judgment by electing this man as your vice president. [Next] Now, now that
you okay, you screwed up. We all screw up. You're a small volunteer
organization. It's understandable that you're going to make mistakes, 'cause
you're human. The only question now is
what do you do to fix the mistake? And how
quickly do you fix the mistake? So, when
I
went to my editor this morning and said, well, I'm told that this guy's
resigned
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: because my
conversation with [Tim] Adams suggested that he was resigned, that there was no question about it.
And I expected to see, you know, a fax on my desk this morning
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: with, you know, telling me that that had
happened and an effective date. And there was no fax. [She expected this without even talking
to the group. (Adams himself hadn't promised her a
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: You
know, when I went to my editor and said he's resigning, you know, is there still a story? My editor said, well, the story now is that,
you know, we're not saying they're screw-ups, we're saying they made a mistake
and they've taken steps to fix
it. [Remember: the person she later identified as
her supervisor denied making any such decisions for her.]
FF00497
-12-
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: So,
the question is what steps are you guys going to take? And so what I've said
is that I understand that there is going to be a meeting on the weekend
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: and,
you know, you know, we should probably give them the weekend to sort this out
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: before we write the story. Because we
wanted to run this for Saturday. So I've bought you
some time. [Again clearly saying
that this other person made the actual decision.]
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: But, early next week we are going to write
a story that says here's this organization, it made a mistake, here's what it
did to fix the mistake. And then
readers are going to decide whether you have done enough to fix the mistake.
[Back]
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Or
whether you've just really made excuses and said this is all about some
personal vendetta of someone and refused to actually acknowledge that there might
be
issues of concern.
BB: Yeah.
DL: So,
you know, I'm a journalist. I write news.
If there is no story, I don't waste my time on it because there's lots
of real stories out there.
BB: True.
DL: The story is that you guys elected someone
last Monday night who was totally inappropriate to be an official for your
organization.
BB: Well
DL: If you hadn't done that
BB: Uh-huh
DL: I would not to you now.
BB: Right.
So, I guess the with more information, I guess you know, you hear one side
you hear the other side, etc.
DL:
Uh-huh. FF00498
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BB: One
has to go through a even, you know, as awful as this sounds, one has to go
through, you know, the Board basically
DL: Yeah.
BB: to look at the situation and decide what
to do.
DL: Right.
BB: Um,
and based upon where this is coming from, we are, you know, wondering, you
know, I personally wonder what is the truth here, you know.
DL: Well, do you have a fax number? Can I fax
you this Court of Appeal decision?
BB: You can fax it to the 988 number.
DL: 988.
BB: That number that I 988
DL: 4015
BB: And that is our message line and it takes
faxes.
DL: Okay.
BB: Urn.
DL: Okay. So why don't I do that for you
today.
BB: Okay.
DL: And then you've kind of got something, you
know, in black and white.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: And,
you know, in these cases we never know, you know, if you're right you get some
newspaper articles, you talk to different people, they say certain things, and
then from a journalist's perspective, if the court says something, that is
safe. That is hyper-safe for us to print
because we cannot be sued by quoting what a judge says.
BB: Right.
DL: So,
when we describe [Tim] Adams' history, we're going to be quoting directly from
that judgment.
BB: Uh-huh.
FF00499
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DL: That's
where the information is going to come from.
BB: All
right. I guess, you know, my feeling up until this point is, and I think that
most people that voted was that [Tim] was helping out on the support group
support group meetings, that he was basically keeping things on track so that
we weren't saying things that we shouldn't say. Because there's people that
will give advice
DL: Right.
BB: in
a support group. And they'll say, well, he should just do that. And he'll go,
whoa, you know. And this is what I'm hearing secondhand from somebody else.
DL: Yeah.
BB: He
said, whoa, you know, you can't say that, you know. It may be this or this,
but, you know, you can't be saying this. Or giving directions, you know, kind
of direct or maybe he can go some lawyer or do something, but
DL: Right.
BB: you
know, and that I've never heard that, you know, he's done anything but good
and I guess that I heard that he was disbarred. There was some details on that.
Didn't
really know. And I think a lot of people
knew that he was disbarred and I think, what I'd heard, was that it
was a set-up from the police because he was criminal lawyer and whatever. And,
you know, that at one point somebody I think Louise has mentioned in one of
her e-mails that he had a sex with a minor. Which last night he
said that's not true. And, so, who
knows. You know, where is the truth. I guess if the court documents show that
this is the case, then, yeah, I guess, you know, my feeling is that we're going
to we don't have the person there. If he's going to present a problem to our
credibility, then we have to remove him.
DL: Right.
BB: If,
you know, if this is, in fact true, which it sounds like it is. I don't think
you'd be making this up. So, but I think ultimately, I don't what the situation
was exactly, but from what I've seen, he was trying to help people out.
DL: Right.
Now the other thing you should be aware of and, you know, I don't know if you are or not, is that when
I spoke to Mr. Adams yesterday, he admitted to me, and this was probably on the
low side because, you know, it's human to do that, he admitted to me that at
least 25% of his paralegal business comes from ECMAS referrals.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Okay.
So, he is coming to ECMAS and he is getting clients from ECMAS.
BB: Uh-huh.
FF00500
- 15-
DL: So,
you know, I wouldn't have ever known about that if I hadn't started looking at
this. You know, but when the man himself
is telling me that a quarter of his business, i.e., a substantial portion of
his livelihood, is coming from you guys, that puts you in the position of
referring him. That means you are
putting your blessing on people coming to the support group using him.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: And
whether you intended to do that or not, that's the position you find yourself
in.
BB: Yeah.
Like I say, I haven't been at the support group meetings. From what I heard
last night there was never any referrals to him. [An obvious error. He may have confused not
DL: Except
the only way these people are meeting him are by going to an ECMAS meeting.
BB: Right.
DL: And
he's saying that 25% of his clients come from ECMAS. That's how he meets them.
Okay?
[Note well that when she spoke to the
president, she did not seem to have any general objection to such
dealings:]
DL: So some groups would say we're not in the
business of, of, of referring anyone to anyone and we don't want anyone who
comes to our meetings to be making money off of anyone else at our meetings.
Some groups have that policy. Some
groups say, you know, if you are, you know, they make their different
decisions.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: You guys don't seem to have had a policy
and so it seems to have happened by accident. But the point is, is that, is
that he, you know, if he was ordinary paralegal with a stellar past, it might
not be such an issue. [In
alleging the Calgary rule, question 11 says
any financial dealings via ECMAS
should be banned, not just those with one having Mr. Adams' past.]
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: You know, it might be perfectly fine.
You've checked the guy out; you like his services; you have no problem with connecting
people [By
that time, we had "checked him
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: who go to the meetings with him. [Even in the published
article she didn't say what is objectionable
is bad by all the attention she paid to it. She also focused there,
shortly.] [Back]
BB: Yeah,
We have a policy actually that no member of the board is to be receiving any
money, in anyway, from the group.
DL: Okay.
So, has he ever been a member of the board?
BB: No. FF00501
- 16-
DL: Okay.
BB: Not
until this time.
DL: Okay.
So now he became a member of the board when he became V. P.?
BB: That's
right.
DL: Okay.
Okay.
BB: So,
and that was just on like, on that, that meeting that was we had our annual
general meeting, that was the election.
DL: Right.
Well, I can suggest to you that when I
BB: So,
according to our policy he cannot receive any money regarding anything
DL: He
did not seem to be aware of that policy when I spoke to him yesterday because
he did not suggest that now that I've become V.P. I will not be taking, I will
not be getting clients from ECMAS. He made no mention of that whatsoever.
[Somehow failing to see the difference between being paid by ECMAS
and by individuals met through ECMAS]
BB: Okay.
Well, I guess if you could fax that to me. That would be good.
DL: Okay.
BB: Um,
I'm not sure like we had a meeting last night. It was scheduled ahead of time
for some other reasons.
DL: Okay.
BB: But,
it quickly became the topic of discussion and it was the only topic of
discussion last night.
DL: Right.
BB: Um,
I guess that, again, I, you know, these things come to light I guess. What it a
bad decision? I don't know. I guess, perhaps it was. You know, you vote. Many
people came to vote. There was about 29 people that voted for the vice
president position.
DL: Right.
BB: And,
you know
DL: But,
you're saying to me that, that clearly people didn't know who they were voting
for.
BB: Well,
I guess they didn't know the details that I'm sure that you know. I think they
voted based upon what he's been doing in the past couple of years. FF00502
- 17-
DL: Right.
BB: And, I think that
associated with this particular election, there was definitely a coup attempt
and perhaps, you know, I even heard that
perhaps that prompted [Tim] to run because, you know, this Louise Malenfant was
wanting to take over the organization. And, so, um, you know, perhaps, he has
no other interest to run other than that. I have not discussed this with him. I
was surprised to see that he ran
DL: Right.
BB: on that particular night, to tell you the
truth.
DL: Right.
Right. So do you have a policy where someone has to nominate you, or can
you just nominate yourself when you run?
[Again DL changes the
subject, again refuses to inquire into the coup attempt or Adams' reason for
running]
[Back]
BB: Um,
I believe people can put their names up.
DL: Okay.
BB: This
is we've changed our by-laws. That was one of the things that we did
DL: Okay.
BB: in
the meeting was we revised our by-laws and those were accepted at that meeting
as well.
DL: Okay.
Okay. So, I'm sorry that we're not
talking about something far pleasant. I wish that were the case. Um, but, you know, as a journalist I have a
responsibility to report the news and when you guys had your election and you
elected [Tim] Adams, that became news.
And it would be news if the Red Cross elected someone with that kind of
past as their vice president. It would
be news if the YMCA elected someone with that kind of past. Because, you know,
they're connected to kids. It's news
when you guys do it. So, and as I say,
everyone screws up.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: The only question is do you fix
the mistake. Do you fix it thoroughly. You know, do you make the right noises
to the public which suggest that, oh my God, we're embarrassed that we've done this
and, you know, we've learned a big lesson and, you know, we didn't
certainly had no intention of, you know, associating ourselves with someone
with this kind of past.
BB: Yeah.
Um, personally, I am a religious person.
DL: Yeah.
BB: I
do not from what I've heard the little bit I've heard about Ferrel's book,
I have no no alliance or like for that. I have no particular I really
would, you know, FF00503
- 18-
personally don't like the kinds of things that [Tim]
Adams is said to have done. I think that is wrong. I guess that one thing
that we have is we've got a number of people that are falsely accused in our
group,
DL: Yeah.
BB: and
I think, you know, to be fair to ECMAS, it's fairly difficult to weed out the
truth from the fact.
DL: Yeah.
BB: And,
I'm wondering now, you know, what do we do?
You know, trying to look forward from this. Do I run criminal checks on
people that are board members, you know?
That we don't get stories that come out afterwards that digs up their
past and tries to shed put light on ECMAS as being supportive of this.
DL: Well,
you could
BB: You
know, do I check the false allegations
and make my own personal judgments as to whether they're not they are true or
not? I don't know. It's a tough tough situation. Personally, I want to do
positive things.
DL: Right.
BB: And,
um, you know, if there are people that are going to help out, it's pretty hard
for me to say, well, wait a minute, you know, you're not allowed, or you don't
meet my standards or whatever. If they're if they're separate in Ferrel
Christiansen's case
never has it been in there, you know he was involved
way before I was. The other people that were president, etc. seem to have let
him assist, etc. Either they didn't know his you know, the details, or I
don't know what, you know. But I guess,
it, you know, you're saying what are we doing to do to fix it? Are we looking at ourselves to do this? And I guess,
we're we'll have to meet and we'll have to decide what to do. What would you
suggest?
DL: Well, I that puts me in a difficult
position 'cause, you know, as the journalist reporting the story, I should not
be affecting the story. Um [She
says this after demanding to
BB: Well, the story is affected by your
article.
DL: Right. [Next]
BB: There
is no question.
[Here she uses an analogy
to pound home her repeated suggestion that they disassociate from Mr. Adams and
me:]
DL: Okay, let's say let's use a hypothetical
situation. Okay? Hypothetical situation.
We have the YMCA. They elect someone who has been a volunteer, who has been around for awhile, who has done very good work as far as
they know. They elect this person to
vice president and then it comes to light that this person has has, you know,
this criminal past that they were unaware of. -------->
FF00504
- 19-
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: They made a honest mistake. They say, oh
my God, we made a mistake.
BB: Uh-huh,
DL: We ask for the
guy's resignation.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: We say, we're sorry that, you
know, you are guilty of this offence. You were found guilty you plead guilty
to this offence. And, you know, we certainly believe that, you know, people
should be allowed to get on with their lives, but we
cannot be associated with someone who has
got this kind of record.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Because
it tars our work with young people.
BB: Okay,
DL: Um, if it turns out that you find out that
there's another person in your organization who's written a book about pornography.---> Now, let me
tell you, you know, I'm very much a person who, who would agree with what
much of what is in Ferrel Christensen's book about pornography. Okay? I think
90% of it I don't have a problem with. I
think he actually makes some, some very good arguments. But there is, you know, 3% of it, so 95 or
97% of it I would agree with. 3% of it, whenever he
talks about kids and sex, he says some really
disturbing things.
[Note that she's talking about what is said "about kids and
sex" in the whole book, not just in a single section.]
BB: Hum.
DL: Okay? So if this YWCA or YMCA finds out
they have a person, you know, this person's been around. It's never come up as
an issue, but now the YMCA has become aware of it.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: They
say, you know what, we're really sorry to lose you [**Continue over to ## ! ---->]
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: but we cannot afford to have our credibility
tarnished. You're suggesting that sex
with kids is maybe not such a bad thing. [Back]
BB: Uh-huh.
##---->
DL: We can't have that, because we deal with
kids. We're dealing with issues that are directly connected.
FF00505
-20-
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: And, you know, we're, you know, we're sorry to lose you, but you're a liability to us and our
entire organization is in danger of being totally tainted by your presence.
But, if I
were a journalist reporting on the YMCA and
how they handled that
situation, I would say, you
know, they did the right thing.
[Making perfectly clear that, if they do not do
as she says, her article will indicate that they didn't do the right
thing.]
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: They
had a problem. They
fixed the problem. When it came
to their attention, when all of the
facts came to their attention, they moved quickly and they fixed the problem
and they said that, you know, this should not happen and this would be
something that they would try to ensure would not happen in future.
[She continues to pound away at it.] ----->
BB: Right.
DL: And
that's all you can ask.
BB: Yeah.
I guess that I've never read the book. I didn't know about, you know, kids
and sex is okay. I've got children and I don't think it's okay.
DL: Right.
BB: Um,
um, you know. Uh, I do not like any association with that. I think that our
group has wouldn't want any association with that as well.
DL: Right.
BB: Um,
---->
DL: And an organization that deals with the
problem, addresses it, gets rid of the bad elements,
the bad apples, is an organization that you can trust to take care of
their problems. That they hold themselves to a high standard just like they're
expecting government to act to a high standard.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: But an organization that has a problem and
refuses to acknowledge that there's a problems, refuses to do anything, is an
organization maybe people should not be coming to for help. [Note that there is no
'maybe' anywhere here. (Despite the clarity of these efforts to
get me removed from ECMAS, in discovery, we will see
later on, she tried at length to deny having done so.) Later
to
pressure him to act on her allegations immediately.] [Back]
BB: Uh-huh.
Well, I think that all the people that I know in this organization, you know,
only have been involved in it to help change things for the betterment of, not
themselves, but for other people.
DL: Yeah.
BB: Um,
and, you know, I can't don't know too many people that are involved in the
long run that have benefited themselves in anything. FF00506
-21-
DL: Right.
BB: So,
I think that, you know, we don't especially, you know, I feel a real
responsibility to the previous members of ECMAS, you know, previous presidents,
etc. who have done a terrific job and, you know, very well ______ , addressed
issues, very professional in a lot of areas.
DL: Right.
BB: I come you know, Ferrel Christensen was
part of ECMAS well before I
DL: Yeah.
BB: I
came in. Um, hearing some of this information about the book,
etc. and how it could tarnish, you know I guess a little bit not a little
bit. I'm not very happy about that that part of his life. Um, I've seen it in
the two years that I've been the group, I've never seen it ever been associated with any of the
issues or any of the things that have gone on.
DL: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
BB: Um.
I guess, um, you know, to me, it's if it's construed that this is going to
make us look bad, then I think that's we should address that. And I think
that we as a group need to look at that at that book and see if that's, you
know, what he's saying and whatever and decide on that information, I don't
think people have addressed the issue.
DL: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
BB: That
they have looked into, you know, people's pasts. I don't think, when people
basically got some job to do, we're going to do this application or we're going
to make this presentation, or we're going to set up this help line or whatever,
we don't really, you know look at well, what could this person's past be and
should we judge them. We don't have the time. We don't, like, we not
DL: And that's understandable.
BB: an organization. Pardon me?
DL; That's
understandable. But the moment
something comes up, you have to deal
with it.
BB: Right.
DL: You
know, otherwise, you yeah, you assume people are being straight with you. You
assume that they're decent. You assume that, you know, they're of good
character. But the moment a question is raised, you have to address it.
BB: Right. FF00507
- 22 -
DL: And
then you have to act accordingly and make a decision accordingly.
BB: Yeah.
And I guess that's the process that we're in right now. We've got some we had
the meeting last night. Basically [Tim] countered some of the information that
we'd heard. He offered his resignation. Basically, I think that my personal
feeling is that he's offered his resignation. He would not like this story for
personal reasons and I don't see how, no matter what the board thinks or
anything, that we could him down on that. I think that, you know, as far as his
position, I you know, we have other people there was another person running that could fill that position. Um, I, you know, I think that it's --
basically I think he probably would have his resignation probably would have
been accepted last night, but I think that we wanted to talk to you.
DL: Uh-huh.
BB: See where
you're going with this story. And then
meet again and go from there. But I think, you know, it seemed like we needed
to know more details
DL: Sure.
BB: before
we make that final solution.
DL: Sure.
BB: Um,
I don't think that, you know, [Tim]'s got any hesitation about resigning or
whatever and I don't think too many people what I read in the meeting had any
problem with that
DL: Right.
BB: that
solution. So, but I think it was the matter of, you know, let's see what really
is going on here and
DL: Right. But, just
to be clear, you know, if the person just resigns from the YWCA was still connected to it,
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: was still getting clients from it. There's
still an issue.
BB: Yeah.
DL: Right? What started out as a concern about
the person being in an elected position
turns
out to actually be a bigger problem.
BB: Yeah.
DL: So merely resigning the elected position
is not necessarily addressing the bigger problem.
FF00508
- 23 -
BB: Yeah. So, yeah.
We've got to deal with that, I guess. I don't know how what we're
going to do. You know, it's you know, it's in some respects again, I
don't know how his situation is related other than, you know, somebody can
bring up his past and try to associate
DL: Yes.
BB: Urn
DL: And
because it's if it was an offence armed robbery
BB: Yeah.
DL: it wouldn't matter. [!!]
BB: Yeah.
DL: If it was, you know, you know, break and
enter,
BB: Uh-huh,
DL: you know, it probably wouldn't matter.
BB: Yeah. Right.
DL: But it's an offence a sexual offence
with a minor.
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: That's why it matters. [Her alleged reason for
this view is discussed shortly in My Case.] [Back]
BB: Yeah.
DL: It's
the nature of the offence. It's the nature of Ferrel Christensen's comments about sex with children. If he was talking about how, you know,
marijuana should be decriminalized, that's got nothing to do with your mandate.
BB: Yeah.
Yeah. I guess so, you know, that's I think that's probably the way people
will look at things. You know, will it's, I guess, it's from my perspective,
we have to, you know, like you say, it's a bit of a blow, you know, to
DL: Yeah.
BB: our
society that we're going to lose two people that, um, you know, contributed quite a bit from what I hear. Um, as far as I know, did not have anything,
you know, did not have anything to do or talk about these particular things to
anybody in the group.
DL: Right.
FF00509
- 24 -
BB: So, you bring up something kind of
unrelated. But, I guess it is related in that we have show that we're, you
know, an organization that
DL: Not
condone sex with kids. [Back]
BB: Yeah,
well, yeah. And I guess, you know, there's some people that, you know, are
pro-homosexual and this and that and some people are really religious, this and
whatever and I guess the primary thing is like keep these other topics out of
the situation.
DL: Uh-huh.
BB: Deal
with exactly what we're doing and let's get moving on those. And that's, you
know, the focus of the meetings is you know, anybody that's going and any of
the directions that pass focus them on on what we're trying to do and limited
to that. So, um, from my perspectlve, I've
been not really wanting to delve or get into people's pasts.
DL: Uh-huh.
BB: Just,
if they're not bringing up anything that's not an issue, perhaps we can, you
know, I'm not to go and personally investigate it. But
DL: Yeah.
[The reporter's use if pressure on the president is
further evident here:]
BB: if it
is an issue and it's brought up and it's clear that this is the case, then,
we're going to have to do something about it. And I, you know, like I say, I'm president well, I can't speak for
the board and
DL: Uh-huh.
BB: it, you know, from what I saw on last
night I don't think there's any problem with him accepting his resignation, so
it may be, you know, but I can't say that until
DL: Sure.
BB: we
go to the next board meeting, but that's the way that I would take it.
DL: Now do you think you will be having an
emergency board meeting before early next week?
BB: Um, it's hard to say, you know. People, um, I mean, we had this meeting last
night. It was pre-arranged over a week ago
DL: Uh-huh.
BB: and, you know, still we're going to have
we, you know, missed about three or four people, so we can try to set this next
one up and see how quickly we can do it. I yeah, we would definitely call a
meeting here and, um, we'll see if probably
FF00510
-25-
Monday would is
seems to be the best day 'cause some kids some people have access on Tuesdays and Thursdays and some have
Wednesdays, so, um, you know, it
seems like Monday is one of the best days that we have for meetings.
DL: Okay.
I've already kind of got an extension for you by saying that there's
going to be a meeting on the weekend. I don't know if I can get another
extension that says oh, they're having another meeting on Monday. [Here she is putting time-pressure on
BB: Oh,
I see, okay.
DL: You
know, so, um, but you do that you do what, you know, you have to do.
BB: Well,
I guess Monday would probably be the easiest to get the most people
DL: Right.
BB:
but if what you're saying is we should probably move it up to the weekend
then.
DL: Um. I'm sorry about this. And how long
have you been president. [Back]
BB: Uh, this is my second term.
DL: Okay. Second term. So, one-year term or
BB: Yes.
DL: Okay. Second year, okay, one year term.
When did you join ECMAS?
BB: Um, um, I don't know.
DL Okay. Sorry.
BB: Before my first term. Not too long before
my first term.
DL: So, '98, '99?
BB: Yeah, probably '99.
DL Okay. And, how do you spell your name?
BB: Last name, B as in boy-O-U-V as in
Victor-l-E-R.
DL: Okay. And you prefer Bob or Robert?
BB: Uh, Bob.
DL: Bob.
Okay. I would really, really like to talk to you as soon as you have some news.
I understand that you can't make decisions by yourself. Um, I understand that
even statements you make to the media, you probably want to consult with
your
FF00511
- 26 -
board, but as soon as you can tell me something definite
about how ECMAS Edmonton is dealing with these concerns, I you know, the
sooner the better from our perspective.
BB: Okay. Yeah, my feeling that we will have to
disassociate from these people based on their past and, um, that, you know,
that, to me, what really is important is where do we go from there.
DL: Uh-huh.
BB: I
mean you know, we've got people whose past, you know, is not conducive to what
we're trying to do. And, you know, this is going to be run in the papers and
people like, perhaps not yourself or the Post,
but you know, as soon as it gets in the Post it'll be in the Journal and
there will be Faulder in the Journal, etc. who will shine a different light on
that or put a different twist on it or whatever and, you know
DL: Okay. You're right.
I think that it may not become a big a national story, but there will be
some local coverage. So the Journal you know, it's probably a safe bet.
BB: Yeah.
DL: Um, you know, Jaffer a few days ago, you
know, made this mistake.
BB:
Yeah.
DL: He
apologized. It's history now. Because he took care of it. You know, it was
embarrassing for a day or two and then it's gone because he did the right
thing. If
you guys were to handle in a similar situation, I
suggest that's how long it would be news.
Because anyone who says these issues came up would also have to say they
were dealt with promptly and this is how they were dealt with.
BB: Yeah. Well, I guess, um, we'll hope we'll see how
things turn out. You know, it, to me
it's a destructive type thing that's
happening here. Um, I, I don't
know, it's l feel a liftle bit of loss.
DL: Yes.
BB: To
Ferrel and [Tim]. I don't really know [Tim] that well.
Ferrel I've worked with on
a number of things and I've found him always to be never any mention of
anything about a book or anything like this [Back]
DL; Yeah.
BB: And,
you know, he's always been doing a lot of things, you know, always working very
hard at various things and it's, you know,
I personally feel that, well, I would look at this book and I guess
it's, you know, I'm disappointed that he has this past and it's basically affecting
his role that he could have had as helping this movement.
DL: Uh-huh. FF00512
- 27 -
BB: And
it's too bad, because I think that he had done a lot of good things and, I
guess, part of the other thing is I feel the way things turned out that this is
a vindictive thing from somebody that, you know, which like you say, you know,
immaterial to the newsworthiness of the story, etc., but all the same, it's
kind of stinks.
DL: Well,
you know, if there was no stuff there, there'd be if there was no ammunition,
there'd be no one, you know
BB: Hit
DL: If
there was no mud there, there would be no slinging going on.
BB: Yeah.
I
DL: The
point is is that the mud is there.
BB: Yeah.
DL: Right?
BB: I guess, you know, Louise is a member
right now of ECMAS.
I have heard from [Tim]
last night that she will provide legal advice and instruction, etc. to
various people. There's all kinds of problems that people have had in
Edmonton since she's come on various cases. Um, you know, [The reporter interrupts to change the
subject.]
DL: But Louise does not have two criminal
convictions for prostitution. [Back]
BB: True. But, I guess, as far as ECMAS,
what do we do now? Do we now look into those things?
DL: Well
BB: Or what are we going to do now?
DL: Well, if she has a criminal record, yes,
it should be discussed(?). If she has no
criminal record,
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: you know, you're going to have to decide
where to draw the line. [Back]
BB: Yeah.
DL: You know, you can, you can as you say spend all your time investigating
people
BB: Yeah.
DL: But the easy ones are where they've
written it down in a bloody book.
FF00513
- 28 -
BB: Yeah.
DL: The
easy ones are when they've got two criminal convictions
BB: Uh-huh.
DL: Right?
BB: Yeah.
Well, yeah, it's yeah, I just trying to see what we can do. You know, I don't
what this to happen again, I guess, is what I'm saying.
DL: Yeah.
BB: And,
um, what do we do? Where do we go from there I guess?
DL: Yeah.
BB: Okay.
Well, I have your number. Um
DL: Yes,
so please
CONVERSATION
CUT OFF - END OF TAPE
111 896-1 .WPD; Sep/07/01
FF00514