DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (ďDLĒ) AND "The Aunt" (ďTAĒ)
[For reasons given elsewhere, the names of the reporter's four interviewees unnamed in the two articles have been† replaced, in this publicized version of the lawsuit documents, with descriptors and initials (as seen above). In all other ways, this version's wording remains as in the original lawsuit document.--FC]
TA: ††††† Hello.
DL:††††† Hi, may I speak to Mrs. [the aunt] please?
DL:††††† Hi. It's Donna from the National Post calling. How are you?
TA: ††††† Hi. Iím fine. How are you?
DL:††††† Iím well. Is this a good time for you to chat. Do you have a few minutes or
TA:†††††† Yes, yes, I do. Yeah.
DL;††††† Okay. Um, I have the unfortunate duty of writing a news story for the National Post which we expect will came out early next week and itís about some of the things that have been happening at ECMAS Edmonton.
TA:†††††† Oh, yes.
DL:††††† And I was hoping that maybe you might be able to give me some insight into what was going on. Because I understand that youíve been a member and youíve been attending some meetings. And I have all kinds of people telling me all sorts of things.
DL:††††† And I was hoping that maybe you might be willing to talk to me.
TA:†††††† Oh, sure.
TA:†††††† If I can help in any way. But, I havenít been that active,
TA:†††††† You know.
DL:††††† How long Ė when did you first get involved with ECMAS?
TA:†††††† I think itís got to be about, oh, two years at least. Maybe even a little longer. Two-and-a-half years.
DL:††††† Okay. Two-and-a-half years?
DL:††††† Your nephew.
TA:†††††† Yeah. Yeah.†††† [The reporter immediately changes the subject, and nowhere in this interview asks
about the nephew. (Say, "So he's your brother or sister's son. Did Christensen urge him/them to hire Adams?")
Indeed, why would she interview the aunt at all, instead of someone more central? The only plausible reason, I
submit, is that the reporter wanted only to harm me, not to investigate the facts--and already knew enough about
the sisters' situation from Ms. Malenfant (more on this later) to know that talking to the son/nephew could not give her any more help in achieving that end--he might even say things that would interfere with it. As we will see later, the reporter never really investigated, just collected accusations pre-arranged by Malenfant.]††† [Back]
DL:††††† Okay. And, now, I know that this group does a lot of wonderful work. ††††††††† ††††††
TA:†††††† Uh-huh [affirmative].
DL:††††† Would you agree with that? Can you tell me what Ė what ECMAS does thatís so valuable from your perspective?
TA:†††††† Well, um, they are trying to get gender equality, for one thing. And also theyíre trying to help solve problems as far as children that do not have the opportunity, in most cases, to see both parents Ė in most cases, the fathers.
DL:††††† Right. Right.
TA:†††††† And, uh, but its been an ongoing battle and I havenít seen that much success.
DL:††††† Oh, dear.
TA:†††††† You know. I donít know Ė weíre not getting the respect from a lot of the media
TA:†††††† and Ė or recognition. Like weíve done a lot of, oh, what do you call it, demonstrating in front of politiciansí offices and things like that and at first weíd get the media out, but now they just sort of, like they hardly pay any attention to us.
DL:††††† Oh, dear.
TA:†††††† Yeah. So, Itís Ė Iím getting very discouraged with the whole thing. And then, of course, Iíve heard of a few things that are going on there now as far as the people that are running it. And Iím not pleased.
TA:†††††† You know,
DL:††††† Right. Okay. Can you tell me what youíve heard and why youíre concerned Ė what your concerns might be?
TA:†††††† Well, like Ferrel Christensen is one that I had very high regard for. At first he was very Ė like, he worked very herd and he probably still works very hard. I donít Ė Iím not in contact with him as much anymore, But, like he organized meetings and, and called meeting after meeting and Iím running all over the place, you know, to these different houses, you know, that were having gatherings at their house to discuss this and to discuss that. And then I was thrown on a couple of different committees, like the Maintenance Committee I was on for awhile. And we got nowhere. We just got nowhere. [These meetings in different houses (also with government ministry people) were not the weekly and monthly ECMAS meetings but MERGE committee meetings which I set up--FC]
DL:††††† Oh, dear.
TA:†††††† And we tried to stop the change in legislation here about maintenance and we were way too late. Like, they canít seem to get organized. And by the time we get there, itís over.
TA:†††††† You know. And, then, of course, when I heard about his book that was out there -
††††††††††† I myself have not read the book,
TA:†††††† but Iíve heard about it and whatís contained in it. Some of the stuff thatís contained in it. And I Ė I sort of lost all respect for Ferrel. And then heís a very close friend of this Ė oh, whatís his name Ė [Tim] Adams? A lawyer that has been disbarred, I understand. And the reason he was disbarred Ė I have no respect for this man either and I donít think they should be involved in trying to change childrenís issues, you know, [The 'very close friend' part is parroting Malenfant's fabrication, not her own knowledge.]
TA:†††††† These are children that are already in trouble. We donít need people like this, um,
††† you know,
working with them.
TA:†††††† And, my question Ė I sort of question in the back of my mind, now why are they involved
DL:††††† Uh-huh, uh-huh.
TA:†††††† with these issues?
TA:†††††† Is there some gratification? I hope not. [A person who has been led to believe that I myself
might have pedophilic tendencies is clearly apt to be angry enough for emotion to distort her testimony. And
an ethical reporter would have been concerned about that danger. This reporter didn't even ask "TA" (the aunt)
to relate what she had been told about the book's contents.] †††† [Next]††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† U00351
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TA:†††††† And Ė but, other than that, I really Ė like and then thereís, you know, different members, too, have come and gone, come and gone. I can see them coming to a meeting and then you never see them again. Iíve gone to a couple of support meetings and theyíre always new faces. Thereís the odd, you know, regular there
TA:†††††† but they seem to be new faces all the time. And Ė but they donít seem to come back.
TA:†††††† So, obviously, theyíre not getting the help that theyíre reaching out for.
TA:†††††† You know.
DL:††††† Right. Now, whenís the last time you went to one of these meetings Ė a support group meeting?
TA:†††††† I went to Ė actually their election meeting the other night.
TA:†††††† But, I have not - I wasn't at a meeting, oh, for a long time before that. Probably, oh gosh, Ė well, actually, I went to their barbecue which was last July and they sort of had a bit of a meeting there electing new board members and things, eh.
[The aunt has mistaken the MERGE picnic and AGM for an ECMAS event. As will be noted later, the two
DL:††††† Okay.††† sisters went more to the irregularly scheduled MERGE meetings than to any ECMAS ones.]
TA:†††††† But as far as an actual regular ECMAS meeting, I probably hadnít been there for nine, ten months.
DL:††††† Nine or ten months. Okay.
TA:†††††† Yeah, yeah.
DL:††††† Now when you were going, were you going to support group meetings on a regular basis or just the other committee meetings and annual meetings and
[Note in the next link that the reporter didn't ask this 'regular basis' question of the other sister, the grandmother.
Had she done so, she would have been told that the other, too, had never gone regularly to ECMAS meetings.]
TA:†††††† I was going to the annual meetings.† I went to the annual meetings a few times.† And then I went to Ė I thought, well, they talk so much about this support group [TA
must've meant 'general' (monthly), not 'annual'; either way, the reporter knew she had never attended regularly.
Earlier, she said she went to "a couple" of support meetings; she certainly didn't go more than twice.] [Next]
TA:†††††† that I wanted to know what that was all about and I heard so much about this [Tim]
TA:†††††† And, so, I thought, Iím going to go, you know,†††††††††††††††††††††††
TA:†††††† and see what this is all about and, you know, like I say, there wasn't much to offer, but Ferrel kept suggesting that we should probably go with [Tim] Adams - go with [Tim] Adams.
DL:††††† What do you mean?
TA:†††††† He can help us as far as - for advice and stuff, eh.
DL:††††† So go with [Tim] Adams?
TA:†††††† Talk to [Tim] Adams for advice as to what to do next and this type of thing, eh.
DL:††††† So when would he be saying that? At the meetings themselves?
TA:†††††† No, just in talking personally to Ferrel.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
TA:†††††† Yeah. Yeah. And he kept pushing this, talk to [Tim] Adams. And I know [Tim] is at the meetings and questions are quite often directed to the leader who is Jiggs Ė they call him Jiggs. I donít know what his real name is. ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† †
TA:†††††† And, you know, if he canít answer, say, well, [Tim] can probably advise you on that. [Tim] can advise you on that. [Clearly, this is about getting a question answered, not about
helping her nephew to represent himself in court. Farther along, TA does discuss the matter of hiring Adams.
(Follow this thread by skipping over the next highlighted material, down to the symbol '###'.)] ------------->††††
TA:†††††† But like I say, now that Iíve heard what [Tim] Adams has done, Iím not impressed and I donít think he should be giving advice.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. Now, now, Just so that I understand you correctly. Was Ferrel Christensen saying to you that your nephew should get Ė should use [Tim] Adams? Or was it
TA:†††††† Yes. Yes.
TA:†††††† Yeah, you should use [Tim] Adams.
DL:††††† Okay, so did you nephew have a lawyer?
DL:††††† Okay. So, did Ferrel know that your nephew had a lawyer?
DL:††††† Okay. But you Ė
TA:†††††† Well, we complained, eh, that we Ė you know, we went to court a few times and Ė pardon me Ė and, you know, the high cost Ė we just couldnít afford the cost anymore.†††††† [Next]††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
TA:†††††† And he said dump your lawyer. You donít need a lawyer. Just Ė [Tim] Adams will help you, you know. Just go to [Tim] Adams. Which we never did.
[Now she is clearly referring to hiring Adams--but in a way ('go to') consistent with just exploring hiring him.]
DL: †††† Now, did he mention whether [Tim] Adams was going to charge you money or not?
TA:†††††† Well, yes, there was some mention of something about Ė no, what was it? Oh, or did we phone and It was $90 an hour or something that he charged?
TA:†††††† Yeah. But he couldnít represent you in court, so it was of no value to, you know, to us.
DL:††††† Right. Now, how many times do you think Ferrel Christensen suggested this? Once? Ten times? Twenty times? You know, you should get [Tim] Adams on your case. [Since all of our discussions were on her nephew's case, it is not clear that TA (the aunt) would†
see this as asking how often I suggested they look into hiring Mr. Adams, rather than getting free information.]
TA:†††††† Um, oh, I would say at least Ė maybe eight times, I would guess.
DL:††††† Maybe eight times, you would guess?
TA:†††††† Yeah. [And given that TA originally spoke of my directing them to [Tim] Adams to get their questions
answered, it isn't clear that she is here distinguishing those occasions from occasions when I suggested that they
look into hiring him. In any case, added together the two types of urging may have added up to eight.]† [Back]
DL:††††† Okay.† Okay.† So, this would be just, you know, when you were at other meetings† or stuff.
DL:††††† All right. Good,
TA:†††††† Yeah. Yeah.
DL:††††† Okay. Well, did he ever phone you at home and suggest that to you or
TA:†††††† Uh, in phone conversation, yes.
TA:†††††† Cause heís phoned quite often about different meetings and weíd get to talking about different things. And he says, well, you know, I think youíd be really impressed with [Tim] Adams, eh.
TA:†††††† You know, get [Tim] Adams to help you.
TA:†††††† But, like I say, we never did.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay. And why was that? Because
TA:†††††† Well, I had a Ė I donít know.† I had a funny feeling about it right from the start when I heard that he was disbarred.
TA:†††††† You know, and I thought, no. Thereís gotta be a reason. Thereís gotta be a good reason for them to be disbarred, I think.
DL:††††† Right. Right. Okay.† Are you aware of anyone in the organization who did, you know, dump their lawyer and go with [Tim] Adams?
TA:†††††† Um, there is one fellow I think that did talk to [Tim] Adams.
TA:†††††† And apparently he was served a bill.
DL:††††† Okay. Uh, do you know who that might Ė his name might be?
TA:†††††† His name is Ė I donít know what his last name is either Ė but his name is Hymie. Just a minute. I wonder if I might have a number for him.
DL:††††† Oh, that would be fabulous.
TA:†††††† Yeah. Oh, no, Iíve left that information at home, I think.
TA:†††††† Yeah, I donít have my little note pad here. Iím at my daughter's, eh.
DL:††††† Right. If you have a moment sometime, you know, later on in the day or early tomorrow to check and if you have his phone number, it would be very helpful to me.
DL:††††† Because Iím actually still tying to find someone who used him. I, you know, Iím talking to people like you who say they were encouraged to use him, but I havenít found anyone yet who actually used him.
TA:†††††† Used him. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Iíll Ė I donít know if Iíll get to that Ė well, I wonít get back to you during your office hours today anymore, but Iíll call you tomorrow morning?
DL:††††† Thank you. Thank you so much. Now did you ever get a card from [Tim] Adams?
TA:†††††† No, I donít
TA:†††††† No, I never did get a card from him.
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
DL:††††† Um, so, now some of the stuff you told me is very important for my piece. Can I use your name.
TA:†††††† Well, weíre still in the court process.
DL:††††† Okay.†† [Having already agreed to anonymity for the other sister on these court-case grounds (we'll
see her quotes shortly), the reporter immediately accepts the aunt's mention of those grounds.]
TA:†††††† Yeah. And, I really donít think Iíd like my name used at this time.
TA:†††††† You know. Because weíre still trying to get our own case --------------.
DL:††††† Okay.†† [But years later, the aunt was more honest about her motives for wanting anonymity:] [Next]
TA:†††††† I wonder who would, letís see, let their name stand,
DL:††††† Yeah. Thatís the problem. Everyone, you know, has got a very good reason, but Iíve got all these people who I canít
TA:†††††† Yeah, see the trouble is with this is just about everybody has dealings going on right now
DL:††††† Yeah. Yeah.
DL:††††† To which book?
TA:†††††† Ferrelís book.
DL:††††† Yes, I have it right here.
TA:†††††† Oh, have you? Oh. Okay.[DL:] And, you know, you know, in fairness to him I think 98% of the book makes some interesting arguments. Some people would agree with them; some wouldnít.† [This paragraph clearly is mis-transcribed, mixing comments from DL and TA; in the following several paragraphs the speakers are consequently misidentified.]
TA[DL]:Um, you know, Iím reasonably sympathetic to many of his arguments. But, the 2% where he talks about kids Ė and itís not very much in the book. The book is about pornography; its not about kids. But the 2% of the book where he does talk about kids is a little disturbing. And, you know, like if he was talking, you know, drugs or anything else it wouldnít matter, but heís talking about sex and kids. †††††††† †††††††[Back]
DL[TA]: Yes. Yes,
TA[DL]: And heís involved in this group.
DL[TA]: Uh-hum. Uh-hum.
TA[DL]:Right? This is whatís troubling, eh. [TA]And he seems to be Ė like everybody seems††† to listen to him. [Here again the two speakers' words are combined; what follows is correct again.]
TA:†††††† Heís sort of the leader of all Ė and like I say he has put an awful lot of work into it and he has done an awful lot as far as arranging meetings, and, you know, and it takes a lot of work, eh, to call everybody to see which night is good and all this stuff, eh. But, at the same time, I Ė nothing seems to ever get completed.† And I think heís working more on what they call Merge.
TA:†††††† Um. Which is more gender equality.
TA:†††††† Um, so, but then when you come with your childrenís problems, he seems to switch it over to the dadís problem more than concerning with the children.
DL:††††† Oh, Interesting. Okay.††††††††††††††††††††††††
TA:†††††† Yeah. Yeah.
DL:††††† Right. Right.
TA:†††††† So, but heís using that avenue Ė heís using the ECMAS Ė but he doesnít Ė I swear on the whole truth, he doesnít have a membership in ECMAS. [For two years before that
2001 AGM, with no ECMAS secretary to remind me, I (also others) failed to renew the membership I had paid
(the receipts show) every year since joining. But I paid up at the AGM--before these words were spoken.]††††
DL:††††† Oh, really.
TA:†††††† Yeah, ------------------------ he wonít buy a membership. Now why, I donít know.
[As noted elsewhere, this 'won't buy' is Malenfant's fabrication regarding that simple oversight of mine.]
DL:††††† But heís very influential in the group.
TA:†††††† Oh, yes. I mean, like even when we had the meeting the other night for election of new members, or the new executive, he did an awful lot of the talking. I would say almost a third of the talking.
TA:†††††† As far as how we should do this and how we should do that and, you know.
DL:††††† How many people were there
TA:†††††† I think at that meeting there was probably around 30, 34, 35, somewhere in there.
DL:††††† Okay. So he was actually taking up a lot of time?
TA:†††††† Oh, yes, he was. He was.
TA:†††††† And, you know, a Iot of it is, you know, trying to convince people who to vote for and
Ėwell, [Tim] Adams Ė I think he really wanted him in there and I donít know what this will give them now, you know, with him in the executive Ė with [Tim] Adams in the executive. [Yet again TA is blindly believing Malenfant--but does correct herself below.]
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DL:††††† So, you said that Ė so, just to make sure that Iím understanding correctly.
DL:††††† At the meeting the other night he was urging people to vote for [Tim] Adams?
TA:†††††† No. No, I cant say that.
TA:†††††† Uh, he was just Ėjust talking in general, eh, that we need a strong, um, you know, um, executive and all the good work that can on and all this stuff, so [Clearly, she can't
†remember. The minutes show I spoke about such things as rules of order, and I introduced the new by-laws.]
DL:††††† Okay. Okay.
TA:†††††† I donít know. Iíve very disillusioned. Maybe Iím a little . Iím actually very disappointed.
DL:††††† Okay. Well, you know, I donít think, you know, this kind of thing happens in volunteer organizations. You donít, you know, you donít have the time or the energy or the resources to do a criminal records check on everyone.
TA:†††††† Yeah, thatís right.
DL:††††† So the issue is when it comes up
DL:††††† When you realize that thereís a problem
DL:††††† you know, you deal with it. You know, and if you deal with it and you Ė then you move on. You know, like, you know, your young MP who kind of screwed up the other week. You know with the talk show, right?
TA:†††††† Right. Right.
DL:††††† He made a mistake. He apologized. He Ė and now Itís old news because he dealt with it.
TA:†††††† Right. Right.
DL:††††† So, so, I think the question is how is ECMAS going to deal with this?
TA:†††††† Yeah. Yeah.
TA:†††††† As long as they will.
DL:††††† Yeah. And, you know, everyoneís human. Everyoneís going to make mistakes from time to time. The question is once you make a mistake
TA:†††††† Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would like to see him fix it?
DL:††††† Right. So what do you think should happen?
TA:†††††† Well, I think [Tim] should probably step down.
TA:†††††† And, I donít know whether he should even have an active part
TA:†††††† in the organization. And I donít think people should be encouraged to go to him for advice.
TA:†††††† You know, because obviously he Ė well, he didnít do right for himself so Ė I donít know what kind of advice he can really give. And the fact that he can give advice, Still charge $90 an hour, but he canít represent you in court, so how far are you going to get with that? It just wonít take you anywhere.
TA:†††††† You know.
TA:†††††† ĎCause some people are good at representing themselves in court. Others just canít do it.
TA:†††††† You know, theyíre just too weak.
DL:††††† Right. Well, Mrs. [the aunt], youíve been very, very helpful. Thank you so much.
TA:†††††† You are so welcome and I will call and get that number to you tomorrow morning, but Iím sorry that I, you know, canít leave my stand.
[As I hear the tape, the word 'name' occurs just before 'stand' in this transcript supplied by Post lawyers--FC]
DL:††††† No, no, I understand.
DL:††††† If you think of anyone else who I might be able to talk to.
DL:††††† Maybe you could leave me their name and number, too.
DL:††††† Thank you again.
TA:†††††† Thank you.
DL:††††† Have a good day.
TA:†††††† You too.
DL:††††† All right. Bye-bye.
END OF CONVERSATION