TELEPHONE INTERVIEW
DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (“DL”) AND "The Aunt" (“TA”)
[For reasons given elsewhere, the names of the reporter's
four interviewees unnamed in the two articles have been replaced, in this publicized version of the
lawsuit documents, with descriptors and initials (as seen above). In all other
ways, this version's wording remains as in the original lawsuit document.--FC]
[phone ringing]
TA: Hello.
DL: Hi, may I speak to Mrs. [the aunt] please?
TA: Speaking.
DL: Hi. It's Donna from the National Post
calling. How are you?
TA: Hi. I’m fine. How are you?
DL: I’m well. Is this a good time for you to
chat. Do you have a few minutes or
TA: Yes, yes, I do. Yeah.
DL; Okay. Um, I have the unfortunate duty of
writing a news story for the National Post which
we expect will came out early next week and it’s about some of the things that have been happening at ECMAS Edmonton.
TA: Oh, yes.
DL: And I was hoping that maybe you might be
able to give me some insight into what was going on. Because I understand that
you’ve been a member and you’ve been attending some meetings. And I have all
kinds of people telling me all sorts of things.
TA: Uh-huh.
DL: And I was hoping that maybe you might be
willing to talk to me.
TA: Oh, sure.
DL: Yeah?
TA: If I can help in any way. But, I haven’t been that active,
DL: Okay.
TA: You know.
DL: How long – when did you first get involved
with ECMAS?
TA: I think it’s got to be about, oh, two
years at least. Maybe even a little longer. Two-and-a-half years.
U013349
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DL: Okay. Two-and-a-half years?
TA: Yeah.
DL: So, it was - was it your own situation or
with someone you know?
DL: Your
nephew.
TA: Yeah.
Yeah. [The reporter immediately changes the subject, and nowhere in this interview asks
about
the nephew. (Say, "So he's your brother or sister's son. Did Christensen
urge him/them to hire Adams?")
Indeed,
why would she interview the aunt at all, instead of someone more central? The
only plausible reason, I
submit,
is that the reporter wanted only to harm me, not to investigate the facts--and
already knew enough about
the sisters' situation from Ms.
Malenfant (more on this later) to know that talking to the son/nephew could not
give her any more help in achieving that end--he might even say things that
would interfere with it. As we will see later, the reporter never really investigated, just
collected accusations pre-arranged by Malenfant.] [Back]
DL: Okay. And, now, I know that this group
does a lot of wonderful work.
TA: Uh-huh [affirmative].
DL: Would you agree with that? Can you tell me
what – what ECMAS does that’s so valuable from your perspective?
TA: Well, um, they are trying to get gender
equality, for one thing. And also they’re trying to help solve problems as far
as children that do not have the opportunity, in most cases, to see both
parents – in most cases, the fathers.
DL: Right. Right.
TA: And, uh, but its been an ongoing battle
and I haven’t seen that much success.
DL: Oh, dear.
TA: You know. I don’t know – we’re not
getting the respect from a lot of the media
DL: Okay.
TA: and – or recognition. Like we’ve done a
lot of, oh, what do you call it, demonstrating in front of politicians’ offices
and things like that and at first we’d get the media out, but now they just
sort of, like they hardly pay any attention to us.
DL: Oh, dear.
TA: Yeah. So, It’s – I’m getting very
discouraged with the whole thing. And then, of course, I’ve heard of a few
things that are going on there now as far as the people that are running it.
And I’m not pleased.
DL: Right.
TA: You know,
U00350
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DL: Right. Okay.
Can you tell me what you’ve heard and why you’re concerned – what your concerns
might be?
TA: Well, like
Ferrel Christensen is one that I had very high regard for. At first he was very
– like, he worked very herd and he probably still works very hard. I don’t –
I’m not in contact with him as much anymore, But, like he organized meetings
and, and called meeting after meeting and I’m running all over the place, you
know, to these different houses, you know, that were having gatherings at their
house to discuss this and to discuss that. And then I was thrown on a couple of
different committees, like the Maintenance Committee I was on for awhile. And
we got nowhere. We just got nowhere. [These
meetings in different houses (also with government ministry people) were not
the weekly and monthly ECMAS meetings but MERGE committee meetings which I set
up--FC]
DL: Oh, dear.
TA: And we tried
to stop the change in legislation here about maintenance and we were way too
late. Like, they can’t seem to get organized. And by the time we get there,
it’s over.
DL: Right.
TA: You know. And, then, of course, when I heard about
his book that was out there -
I myself have not read the book,
DL: Okay.
TA: but I’ve heard about it and what’s
contained in it. Some of the stuff that’s contained in it. And I – I sort of
lost all respect for Ferrel. And then he’s a very close friend of this – oh,
what’s his name – [Tim] Adams? A lawyer that has been disbarred, I understand.
And the reason he was disbarred – I have no respect for this man either and I
don’t think they should be involved in trying to change children’s issues, you
know, [The 'very close friend' part is parroting
Malenfant's fabrication, not her own knowledge.]
DL: Right.
TA: These are children that are already in
trouble. We don’t need people like this, um,
you know,
working with them.
DL: Right.
TA: And, my question – I sort of question in
the back of my mind, now why are they involved
DL: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
TA: with these issues?
DL: Right.
TA: Is there some gratification? I hope not. [A person who has been led
to believe that I myself
might have pedophilic tendencies is clearly apt to be angry
enough for emotion to distort her testimony. And
an ethical reporter would have been concerned about that
danger. This reporter didn't even ask "TA" (the aunt)
to relate what she had been told about the book's contents.] [Next] U00351
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4 -
DL: Right.
TA: And – but,
other than that, I really – like and then there’s, you know, different members,
too, have come and gone, come and gone. I can see them coming to a meeting and then
you never see them again. I’ve gone to a couple of support meetings and they’re
always new faces. There’s the odd, you know, regular there
DL: Uh-huh.
TA: but they seem
to be new faces all the time. And – but they don’t seem to come back.
DL: Right.
TA: So,
obviously, they’re not getting the help that they’re reaching out for.
DL: Right.
TA: You know.
DL: Right. Now,
when’s the last time you went to one of these meetings – a support group
meeting?
TA: I went to –
actually their election meeting the other night.
DL: Okay.
TA: But,
I have not - I wasn't at a meeting, oh, for a long time before that. Probably, oh gosh, – well,
actually, I went to their barbecue which was last July and they sort of had a
bit of a meeting there electing new board members and things, eh.
[The aunt has mistaken the MERGE picnic and AGM for an ECMAS
event. As will be noted later, the two
DL: Okay. sisters went
more to the irregularly scheduled MERGE meetings than to any ECMAS ones.]
TA: But as far as an actual regular ECMAS
meeting, I probably hadn’t been there for nine, ten months.
DL: Nine or ten months. Okay.
TA: Yeah, yeah.
DL: Now when you were going, were you going to
support group meetings on a regular basis or just the other committee meetings
and annual meetings and
[Note in the next link that the
reporter didn't ask this 'regular basis' question of the other sister, the
grandmother.
Had she done so, she would have been
told that the other, too, had never
gone regularly to ECMAS meetings.]
TA: I was going to the annual meetings. I went to the annual meetings a few times. And then I went to – I thought, well, they talk so much
about this support group [TA
must've
meant 'general' (monthly), not 'annual'; either way, the reporter knew she had
never attended regularly.
Earlier, she said she went to "a couple" of support
meetings; she certainly didn't go more than twice.] [Next]
DL: Uh-huh.
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TA: that I wanted to know what that was all
about and I heard so much about this [Tim]
Adams.
DL: Uh-huh.
TA: And, so, I thought, I’m going to go, you
know,
DL: Yes.
TA: and
see what this is all about and, you know, like I say, there wasn't much to offer, but Ferrel kept
suggesting that we should probably go with [Tim] Adams - go with [Tim] Adams.
DL: What
do you mean?
TA: He
can help us as far as - for advice and stuff, eh.
DL: So
go with [Tim] Adams?
TA: Talk to [Tim] Adams for advice as to what to do next and this
type of thing, eh.
DL: So
when would he be saying that? At the meetings themselves?
TA: No,
just in talking personally to Ferrel.
DL: Okay.
Okay.
TA: Yeah. Yeah. And he kept pushing this, talk to [Tim] Adams. And I know
[Tim] is at the meetings and questions are quite often
directed to the leader who is Jiggs – they call him Jiggs. I
don’t know what his real name is.
DL: Okay.
TA: And, you know, if he can’t answer, say,
well, [Tim] can probably advise you on that. [Tim] can advise you on
that. [Clearly, this is about getting a question answered, not
about
helping
her nephew to represent himself in court. Farther along, TA does discuss the
matter of hiring Adams.
(Follow
this thread by skipping over the next highlighted material, down to the
symbol '###'.)] ------------->
DL: Right.
TA: But like I say, now that I’ve heard what
[Tim] Adams has done, I’m not impressed and I don’t think he should be giving
advice.
DL: Okay. Okay. Now, now, Just so that I
understand you correctly. Was Ferrel Christensen saying to you that your nephew
should get – should use [Tim] Adams? Or was it
TA: Yes. Yes.
DL: Okay.
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TA: Yeah, you should use [Tim] Adams.
DL: Okay, so did you nephew have a lawyer?
TA: Because lawyers are too expensive. Yes,
he does.
DL: Okay.
So, did Ferrel know that your nephew had a lawyer?
TA: Yes.
DL: Okay.
But you –
TA: Well,
we complained, eh, that we – you know, we went to court a few times and –
pardon me – and, you know, the high cost – we just couldn’t afford the cost
anymore. [Next]
DL: Yes.
------> ###
TA: And
he said dump your lawyer. You don’t need a lawyer. Just – [Tim] Adams will help
you, you know. Just go to [Tim] Adams. Which we never did.
[Now
she is clearly referring to hiring Adams--but in a way ('go to') consistent
with just exploring hiring him.]
DL: Now, did he
mention whether [Tim] Adams was going to charge you money or not?
TA: Well,
yes, there was some mention of something about – no, what was it? Oh, or did we
phone and It was $90 an hour or something that he charged?
DL: Okay.
TA: Yeah.
But he couldn’t represent you in court, so it was of no value to, you know, to
us.
DL: Right.
Now, how many times do you think Ferrel Christensen suggested this? Once? Ten
times? Twenty times? You know, you should get [Tim] Adams on your case. [Since all of our discussions were on her nephew's case, it is not clear
that TA (the aunt) would
see
this as asking how often I suggested they look into hiring Mr. Adams, rather than getting free information.]
TA: Um,
oh, I would say at least – maybe eight times, I would guess.
DL: Maybe
eight times, you would guess?
TA: Yeah. [And given that TA
originally spoke of my directing them to [Tim] Adams to get their questions
answered,
it isn't clear that she is here distinguishing those occasions from occasions
when I suggested that they
look
into hiring him. In any case, added
together the two types of urging may
have added up to eight.] [Back]
DL: Okay.
Okay. So, this would be just, you
know, when you were at other meetings or
stuff.
TA: Right.
DL: All right. Good,
TA: Yeah. Yeah.
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DL: Okay. Well, did he ever phone you at home
and suggest that to you or
TA: Uh, in phone conversation, yes.
DL: Okay.
TA: Cause he’s phoned quite often about
different meetings and we’d get to talking about different things. And he says,
well, you know, I think you’d be really impressed with [Tim] Adams, eh.
DL: Right.
TA: You know, get [Tim] Adams to help you.
DL: Right.
TA: But, like I say, we never did.
DL: Okay. Okay. And why was that? Because
TA: Well, I had a – I don’t know. I had a funny feeling about it right from the
start when I heard that he was disbarred.
DL: Okay.
TA: You know, and I thought, no. There’s
gotta be a reason. There’s gotta be a good reason for them to be disbarred, I
think.
DL: Right. Right. Okay. Are you aware of anyone in the organization
who did, you know, dump their lawyer and go with [Tim] Adams?
TA: Um, there is one fellow I think that did
talk to [Tim] Adams.
DL: Okay.
TA: And apparently he was served a bill.
DL: Okay. Uh, do you know who that might – his
name might be?
TA: His name is – I don’t know what his last
name is either – but his name is Hymie. Just a minute. I wonder if I might have
a number for him.
DL: Oh, that would be fabulous.
TA: Yeah. Oh, no, I’ve left that information
at home, I think.
DL: Okay.
TA: Yeah, I don’t have my little note pad
here. I’m at my daughter's, eh.
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DL: Right.
TA: Yeah.
DL: Right. If you have a moment sometime, you
know, later on in the day or early tomorrow to check and if you have his phone
number, it would be very helpful to me.
TA: Okay.
DL: Because I’m actually still tying to find
someone who used him. I, you know, I’m talking to people like you who say they
were encouraged to use him, but I haven’t found anyone yet who actually used
him.
TA: Used him. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I’ll – I
don’t know if I’ll get to that – well, I won’t get back to you during your
office hours today anymore, but I’ll call you tomorrow morning?
DL: Thank you. Thank you so much. Now did you
ever get a card from [Tim] Adams?
TA: No, I don’t
DL: Okay.
TA: No, I never did get a card from him.
DL: Okay. Okay.
TA: Yeah.
DL: Um, so, now some of the stuff
you told me is very important for my piece. Can I
use your name.
TA: Well,
we’re still in the court process.
DL: Okay. [Having already agreed to anonymity for the other sister on
these court-case grounds (we'll
see
her quotes shortly), the reporter immediately accepts the aunt's mention of
those grounds.]
TA: Yeah.
And, I really don’t think I’d like my name used at this time.
DL: Okay.
TA: You
know. Because we’re still trying to get our own case --------------.
DL: Okay.
TA: And
DL: Okay. [But years later, the aunt was more honest about her motives
for wanting anonymity:] [Next]
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TA: I wonder who
would, let’s see, let their name stand,
DL: Yeah. That’s
the problem. Everyone, you know, has got a very good reason, but I’ve got all
these people who I can’t
TA: Yeah, see the
trouble is with this is just about everybody has dealings going on right now
DL: Yeah. Yeah.
TA: Um I wonder. Have you had access
to that book at all?
DL: To which book?
TA: Ferrel’s book.
DL: Yes, I have it right here.
TA: Oh, have you? Oh. Okay.[DL:] And, you know, you
know, in fairness to him I think 98% of the book makes some interesting
arguments. Some people would agree with them; some wouldn’t. [This
paragraph clearly is mis-transcribed, mixing comments from DL and TA; in the
following several paragraphs the speakers are consequently misidentified.]
DL[TA]:Oh, yes.
TA[DL]:Um, you know, I’m
reasonably sympathetic to many of his arguments. But, the 2% where he talks
about kids – and it’s not very much in the book. The book is about pornography;
its not about kids. But the 2% of the book where he does talk about kids is a
little disturbing. And, you know, like if he was talking, you know, drugs or
anything else it wouldn’t matter, but he’s talking about sex and kids. [Back]
DL[TA]: Yes. Yes,
TA[DL]: And he’s involved in this group.
DL[TA]: Uh-hum. Uh-hum.
TA[DL]:Right? This is what’s troubling, eh. [TA]And he seems
to be – like everybody seems to listen
to him. [Here again the two speakers' words are
combined; what follows is correct again.]
DL: Okay.
TA: He’s sort of
the leader of all – and like I say he has put an awful lot of work into it and
he has done an awful lot as far as arranging meetings, and, you know, and it
takes a lot of work, eh, to call everybody to see which night is good and all
this stuff, eh. But, at the same time, I – nothing seems to ever get
completed. And I
think he’s working more on what they call Merge.
DL: Okay.
UOO357
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TA: Um. Which is more gender equality.
DL: Yeah.
TA: Um, so, but then when you come with your
children’s problems, he seems to switch it over to the dad’s problem more than
concerning with the children.
DL: Oh, Interesting. Okay.
TA: Yeah. Yeah.
DL: Right. Right.
TA: So, but he’s using that avenue – he’s
using the ECMAS – but he doesn’t – I swear on the whole truth, he doesn’t have
a membership in ECMAS. [For two years before
that
2001
AGM, with no ECMAS secretary to remind me, I (also others) failed to renew the
membership I had paid
(the
receipts show) every year since joining. But I paid up at the AGM--before these
words were spoken.]
DL: Oh, really.
TA: Yeah, ------------------------ he won’t
buy a membership. Now why, I don’t know.
[As noted elsewhere, this 'won't buy'
is Malenfant's fabrication regarding that simple oversight of mine.]
DL: But he’s very influential in the group.
TA: Oh, yes. I mean, like even when we had
the meeting the other night for election of new members, or the new executive,
he did an awful lot of the talking. I would say almost a third of the talking.
DL: Okay.
TA: As far as how we should do this and how
we should do that and, you know.
DL: How many people were there
TA: I think at that meeting there was
probably around 30, 34, 35, somewhere in there.
DL: Okay.
TA: Yeah.
DL: Okay. So he was actually taking up a lot
of time?
TA: Oh, yes, he was. He was.
DL: Okay.
TA: And, you know, a Iot of it is, you know,
trying to convince people who to vote for and
–well, [Tim] Adams – I think he really wanted him in there and I don’t know what this will
give them now, you know, with him in the executive – with [Tim] Adams in the
executive. [Yet again TA is blindly believing
Malenfant--but does correct herself below.]
U00358
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11 -
DL: So, you said that – so, just to make sure
that I’m understanding correctly.
TA: Uh-huh.
DL: At the meeting the other night he was
urging people to vote for [Tim] Adams?
TA: No. No, I cant say that.
DL: Okay.
TA: No.
DL: Okay.
TA: Uh, he was just –just talking in general,
eh, that we need a strong, um, you know, um, executive and all the good work
that can on and all this stuff, so [Clearly, she
can't
remember. The minutes show I spoke about such
things as rules of order, and I introduced the new by-laws.]
DL: Okay. Okay.
TA: I don’t know. I’ve very disillusioned.
Maybe I’m a little . I’m actually very disappointed.
DL: Okay. Well, you know, I don’t think, you
know, this kind of thing happens in volunteer organizations. You don’t, you
know, you don’t have the time or the energy or
the resources to do a criminal records check on everyone.
TA: Yeah, that’s right.
DL: So the issue is when it comes up
TA: Uh-huh.
DL: When you realize that there’s a problem
TA: Right
DL: you know, you deal with it. You know, and
if you deal with it and you – then you move on. You know, like, you know, your
young MP who kind of screwed up the other week. You know with the talk show,
right?
TA: Right. Right.
DL: He made a mistake. He apologized. He – and
now It’s old news because he dealt with it.
TA: Right. Right.
DL: Right?
U00359
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TA: Right.
DL: So, so, I think the question is how is
ECMAS going to deal with this?
TA: Yeah. Yeah.
DL: Right?
TA: As long as they will.
DL: Yeah. And, you know, everyone’s human.
Everyone’s going to make mistakes from time to time. The question is once you
make a mistake
TA: Yeah.
DL ____flxit.
TA: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would
like to see him fix it?
DL: Right. So what do you think should happen?
TA: Well, I think [Tim] should probably step
down.
DL: Okay.
TA: And, I don’t know whether he should even
have an active part
DL: Okay.
TA: in the organization. And I don’t think
people should be encouraged to go to him for advice.
DL: Okay.
TA: You know, because obviously he – well, he
didn’t do right for himself so – I don’t know what kind of advice he can really
give. And the fact that he can give advice, Still charge $90 an hour, but he
can’t represent you in court, so how far are you going to get with that? It
just won’t take you anywhere.
DL: Right.
TA: You know.
DL: Right.
TA: ‘Cause some people are good at representing
themselves in court. Others just can’t do it.
DL: Right.
U00360
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TA: You know, they’re just too weak.
DL: Right. Well, Mrs. [the aunt], you’ve been
very, very helpful. Thank you so much.
TA: You are so welcome and I will call and
get that number to you tomorrow morning, but I’m sorry that I, you know, can’t
leave my stand.
[As I hear the tape, the word 'name'
occurs just before 'stand' in this transcript supplied by Post lawyers--FC]
DL: No, no, I understand.
TA: Yeah.
DL: If you think of anyone else who I might be
able to talk to.
TA: Okay.
DL: Maybe you could leave me their name and
number, too.
TA: Okay.
DL: Thank you again.
TA: Thank you.
DL: Have a good day.
TA: You too.
DL: All right. Bye-bye.
END OF CONVERSATION
111114-1.WPD;Sep/05/O1
U00361