INTERVIEW of The Aunt by Grant Brown, February 19, 2005


[After four years, the Post's lawyers had given us only interview-transcripts with much material blacked out to hide identities--even though they knew we knew who the interviewees were--leaving us in the dark about key things that were said. Their correspondence even left it open that we still might have to fight them at trial to get the material de-censored. So my lawyer sought interviews with the anonymously quoted sisters, seeking their own permission to de-censor it. To do so, he had to show them the censored transcripts to identify their words, although it might influence their memories. The present document is a transcript made from my then-lawyer's tape-recorded interview with the aunt; copies of the tape and transcript for both of his interviews were given to counsel for The Post.The other two informants resisted our efforts to contact them. But a year later the opposing lawyers finally did provide us with de-censored transcripts for all of the reporter's interviews. (For reasons elsewhere noted, key names are deleted here.).]


B†††††††††††† Lawyer Grant Brown

A ††††††††††† The Aunt

[Note: the sisters' words to my lawyer were said under oath, unlike those said earlier to the reporter. Transcription from the audiotape was made by Accurate Data Services; I subsequently made some minor corrections by ear--FC]


B†††††††††††† Okay, we're going to have to talk into the microphone, into the recorder a little bit, and speak up so that it records, just so that we get a good clean recording of this.Maybe you can first start by identifying yourself.


A ††††††††††† My name is [name withheld here].


B†††††††††††† Okay.And youíve had a chance to review a transcript that I provided to you, a copy of a transcript, and itís page-numbered at the bottom U003492-U00361.


A ††††††††††† That's right.


B†††††††††††† You can identify that, okay.And youíve had a chance to review that and read it over?


A ††††††††††† I did.


B†††††††††††† Okay.And can you positively identify yourself as the person who the reporter, Donna Laframboise, is speaking to in that transcript?Is that a conversation you had with Donna Laframboise?


A ††††††††††† Yes, it does somewhat, but it -- I had a more extensive conversation with -- the last part of the conversation was basically our own case.


B†††††††††††† Oh, I see.You talked to her about other things.


A ††††††††††† Yes.


B†††††††††††† At the end of this?


A ††††††††††† At the end.


B†††††††††††† At the end of this conversation.


A ††††††††††† Yeah.


B†††††††††††† And did you have any other conversations with her, other than this one day?


A ††††††††††† No, not that I recall.I donít think so.


B†††††††††††† She didnít try to contact you subsequently, or you didnít try to contact her?


A ††††††††††† Not that I can remember.I donít think I talked to her after that.


B†††††††††††† Did you know that, at the time that this was Ö conversation was taking place, that she was recording the conversation?


A ††††††††††† Iíve tried and tried to think about that.I do not remember her telling me that she was recording me. But I canít positively say that she didnít.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† But I donít remember her saying that xxx.


B†††††††††††† If she had told you that it would appear in the transcript.


A ††††††††††† In here.Yeah.


B†††††††††††† Malenfant.


A ††††††††††† Yeah.No, sure, probably not.


B†††††††††††† Okay.Did -- were you aware that, whether or not Donna Laframboise had interviewed your sister, [the grandmother], in relation to the same topic?


A ††††††††††† That she had?


B†††††††††††† Were you aware one way or the other whether she had?


A ††††††††††† I donít know who she talked to first.


B†††††††††††† Okay.First of all, do you know whether she spoke with your sister, [the grandmother]?


A ††††††††††† Yes, she did.


B†††††††††††† She did.


A ††††††††††† She did.I talked to [the grandmother].I knew she talked to someone, and I didnít know whether it was the same person, and she said yeah, it was Donna I talked to.


B†††††††††††† Okay.And did you talk to [the grandmother] about what [the grandmother] had told the reporter?I mean did you sort of compare notes about your interviews?


A ††††††††††† No, I donít think so.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† I don't think so.


B†††††††††††† There's, I guess, maybe two topics that I'd like to ask some questions about that were discussed in the interview.The first one has to do with Dr. Christensen's book.Now, on page U00351 you indicate that you've heard about it, and you heard about what's contained in, but you indicate that you -- I think you indicate here that you haven't read it.


A ††††††††††† No.I did not read the book.


B†††††††††††† You did not read it yourself.


A ††††††††††† No.No.


B†††††††††††† Can you tell me who informed you about the contents of the book?


A ††††††††††† Louise -- what's her last name?


B†††††††††††† Malenfant.


A ††††††††††† Malenfant.Louise Malenfant.


B†††††††††††† Okay.And can you tell me roughly -- I mean, obviously, you can't remember details, but maybe roughly what she told you about the book?


A ††††††††††† What did she tell me about the book?Well, what I remember was it was almost like a -- the book contained that Ferrel felt it was appropriate for certain things to go on with young boys, young kids, but I canít -- the details, no.I cannot remember.


B†††††††††††† Okay.Would it help if I suggested that maybe one of the things she indicated was in the book was that Dr. Christensen condones sexual relationships between adults and children?Is that one of the things?


A ††††††††††† Yes.


B†††††††††††† That was one of the things that Louise Malenfant told you was in the book?


A ††††††††††† Yes.I remember that now.[The aunt's memory is likewise unclear.]†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Back]†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††

B†††††††††††† Okay, and by that I mean activities for the sexual gratification of the adult, as opposed to other things like, for example, circumcision or, you know, I mean those could be construed as sexual activities, right?


A ††††††††††† Yes.Right.


B†††††††††††† Parents sleeping in the same bed as their children, for example, would conceivably be thought of as a sexual activity, but that wasnít the kinds of things that Louise was concerned about, I take it.


A ††††††††††† No.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† No.


B†††††††††††† Okay.I just want to be clear that it was Ö


A ††††††††††† But that first statement you said, yes, that's xxx.


B†††††††††††† For the purpose of sexual gratification of the adult is what she was getting at.


A ††††††††††† Yes.Yeah.


B†††††††††††† You haven't had a chance to read Dr. Christensenís book since Louise Malenfant told you about what she thought the contents of the book xxx?


A ††††††††††† Iíve never read the book.


B†††††††††††† Youíve never read it, before or since?


A ††††††††††† No.


B†††††††††††† Did you get any information about the book from anyone other than Louise Malenfant?


A ††††††††††† No.


B†††††††††††† Were you aware of Ö are you aware that the reporter, Donna Laframboise, has also published a book generally on a topic of Ö well, I guess generally on a topic of sexual equality, but that also deals with sexuality issues?


A ††††††††††† Donna did?


B†††††††††††† The reporter, yes.


A ††††††††††† No, I'm not aware of that.


B†††††††††††† You're not aware of that?You're not aware of a book by the name of 'Princess at the Window'?


A ††††††††††† No, I'm not.Princess at the Window, no.


B†††††††††††† Princess at the Window.Author Donna Laframboise.


A ††††††††††† Not aware of it.


B†††††††††††† So you donít know the contents of that book either?


A ††††††††††† Not at all.


B†††††††††††† So you wouldnít know, for example, that Donna Laframboise has fairly controversial views about sex, and for example, violent sex between adults Ö sadomasochistic issues, that kind of thing?


A ††††††††††† I've never heard any of that, no, not at all.


B†††††††††††† Do you know anything about how Louise Malenfant came to Edmonton, what brought her to Edmonton?


A ††††††††††† Ferrel brought her here.


B†††††††††††† Maybe you might have to speak up a little bit.


A ††††††††††† Ferrel Christensen brought her here.


B†††††††††††† And do you know the purpose of him bringing Donna to Edmonton?


A ††††††††††† Well I Ö


B†††††††††††† Louise.Sorry, Louise.


A ††††††††††† The way I understood was that Ferrel felt that she was very good at what she did.She could help our cause, and Ö


B†††††††††††† Do you know specifically what it was that she was going to help with? Was it just about general Ö


A ††††††††††† Generally to solve, to help us solve some of our cases through the justice system of being able to get custody of some of these children that were in bad situations. [As noted elsewhere, the purpose was to research and write up their claims of injustice, not to help them in the justice system. After a while, evidently, her efforts to get involved in their cases made them forget the original reason. At least, my lawyer's efforts to twig the sister's memories in this regard were not very successful, as is seen below and in the grandmother's interview.]

B†††††††††††† Okay.So your understanding was that Louise came to Edmonton for the purpose of giving kinds of hands-on assistance with getting people through the justice system.


A ††††††††††† Yes.Yes.Yeah.


B†††††††††††† As opposed to coming here to write up stories?Maybe Iíll back up before I get into that.Do you recall attending a meeting with a government official named Stephen Brown?This would have been probably in the summer of 2000.†† Maybe the name doesnít wring a bell, but he was an official with the Child Welfare authorities.


A ††††††††††† There were so many people.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† The name sounds familiar, yes.Brown Ö the Brown does, but Stephen Brown?


B†††††††††††† Okay.Do you recall an initiative that was going to be taken to write up some stories of the difficulties that some members of the group had been involved in with the justice system to present it to authorities?To show them that there are legitimate concerns?


A ††††††††††† Vaguely, yes.Vaguely I can remember something about that, yes.


B†††††††††††† Okay.But you donít know -- to your knowledge, or to your memory at least at this point, you donít know whether Donna was specifically brought to Edmonton to deal with that?Sorry, Louise was brought to Edmonton specifically to deal with the writing up of stories to present to government officials for the purpose of convincing them that there were problems with the system that needed to be addressed on a more systemic basis rather than on a case by case basis.


A ††††††††††† I remembered hearing something about that too, but I Ö I just canít Ö like I canít get the whole story clear type of thing.She was supposed to write stories about cases here to present to government officials.Is that what youíre saying?


B†††††††††††† Thatís why Iím asking, whether you have any awareness of that at this point, or any memory of that.


A ††††††††††† No, I canít say that I have a lot of memories of that.


B†††††††††††† Okay.Are you aware of any kind of a working relationship between Doctor Christensen and Louise Malenfant?


A ††††††††††† What it pertained to I donít know, but I do know, yeah, you were working together for a time, I think.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† But she had -- she was supposed to do specific things, I think, and he had specific things.I don't know if things got mumble jumbled after awhile, or what happened, I donít know.


B†††††††††††† Okay.But you don't know any details about any, for example, financial arrangements that they had between them?


A ††††††††††† No.


B†††††††††††† Okay.So you wouldnít know whether Ferrel Christensen had hired her to pay Louise to write up stories of members of the group?You wouldnít know that?


A ††††††††††† No, I don't know that.


B†††††††††††† What about any knowledge of any working relationship between Dr. Christensen and [Tim] Adams?Do you know if they had any kind of working relationship?Either Dr. Christensen paying [Tim] Adams, or [Tim] Adams paying Dr. Christensen, or anything along those lines?


A ††††††††††† No.I know that, you know, they worked together like as a lot of different people there worked together on different projects, but whether it was a paying relationship, I donít know.


B†††††††††††† Okay.So when you say worked together, they were part of the same volunteer group assisting Ö


A ††††††††††† Yes, yes.


B†††††††††††† Assisting members, working together in a sense of assisting members.Is that Ö


A ††††††††††† Yes, yes.


B†††††††††††† Okay.And I guess lastly, was there any kind of a working relationship between Louise Malenfant and you?Was Louise Malenfant at any point actively helping, assisting you?Like personally?


A ††††††††††† Personally, no, but xxx.


B†††††††††††† I mean not personally, but I mean your case.


A ††††††††††† Our case.Yes, our case.Oh, yes, she was.She was working on our case.


B†††††††††††† Can you describe in general terms what the nature of that assistance was?


A ††††††††††† Well, what time did it start, anyway?Well, first of all, we told her our story, and then she -- oh, man, I canít remember what lawyer we were with when she came here, but she would write letters to different Ö to the lawyers for us.She would, not always in our best interest.She actually went to the lawyerís office with [nephew], and that I felt too did more damage than it did good.She would write letters and stories for us.We'd be up there sometimes till two, three oíclock in the morning because she had to get these things done.And -- but they really -- it never really materialized into any of that.We had one lawyer [Clearly, 'judge' was intended]-- what was his name?Sanderman?Yeah.And we had -- he had given us a lot of hope and promise, but apparently she wrote a letter to him or something about some issue, and he had actually -- what's the word?Froze ['seized'] himself to our case.


B†††††††††††† Case managed the case?


A ††††††††††† Yeah.Something about that.


B†††††††††††† This is Justice Sterling Sanderman?


A ††††††††††† I think so, yes.


B†††††††††††† Okay.And heíd assigned himself case management, manager of the case.


A ††††††††††† Yeah.And somehow she wrote a letter to him about some issue, I canít remember what it was about, and he removed himself from our case, and I think that was sort of the pitfall right there.†††††††††††††††††††††††† [Next]††††††††††††††††††††


B†††††††††††† Okay.Roughly what timeframe are we talking about here?


A ††††††††††† What do you mean, Ďtimeframeí?


B†††††††††††† Well, the article was published April 17th, maybe you can Ö maybe you can tell me in relation to the article whether it was Ö whether this activity that Louise Malenfant was engaging in on your behalf was before or after, or before and after publication date.


A ††††††††††† Mostly before.


B†††††††††††† Mostly before.


A ††††††††††† Before.Iím sure it was before.Oh, one of these days we'll put a computer up here, to hold information better!Yeah, Iím sure because there wasnít much happening after that article came out.Was there?


B†††††††††††† Nothing much happening with ECMAS, you mean, or with your law suit?


A ††††††††††† Well, I felt like ECMAS and everybody suffered I think at that point, and there -- it was sort of a Ö it seemed like a lull.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† I mean I wasnít involved, I canít say that for sure, but it just seemed like -- mind you, we were probably at fault for even talking to these people -- that we really never heard from anybody.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† Blaming us, which may be so.


B†††††††††††† Okay.So I guess it would be fair to characterize what you've just said is that you regret having given the interview to Donna Laframboise?


A ††††††††††† Yeah, I regret getting involved in this.Yeah.


B†††††††††††† Okay.I guess the other Ö


A ††††††††††† Dealing with this, it was a thing that she had given us so much hope that we just followed whatever she wanted us to do, we just seemed to do.


B†††††††††††† By Ďsheí you mean Louise?[Louise Malenfant, of course.]


A ††††††††††† Louise, yeah.She gave us so much hope that she would solve this problem.We will end up the winners, and we will have this child.And when you have a child in a situation like that, full neglect, youíll do almost anything to get them out of that situation. [What the aunt said at that time about my urgings and Mr. Adams:] [Next]†††††††††††††††


B†††††††††††† Okay.In the course of this assistance that Louise gave you, did you pay her anything for that assistance?


A ††††††††††† I personally did not pay her that much, but I know my sister did.


B†††††††††††† Okay, your sister, [the grandmother].


A ††††††††††† Yeah.She had two -- she paid her -- I donít know whether it was a lump sum, but she was constantly, as I say, buying for her, helping with rent, and run her -- drive her here to pick up her card that she finally got some assistance from Ė was it AISH? -- and xxx card, and then go pick it up, and fill it out, and drive her again to deliver it, and it wasnít easy Ďcause she is very crippled up with hip problems, so it was pretty hard to drive her around.


B†††††††††††† So you were helping her with her rent, or not you but [the grandmother],


A ††††††††††† Yeah, yeah.


B†††††††††††† Öhelping with rent, paying cash payments by cheque, driving her around.


A ††††††††††† I did a lot of driving for her.I picked up her daughter when she come to town, took her to the airport a couple of times, picked up Anne Cools when she came.Like I said, we did everything we could because there was so much promise, so much hope that she could solve our problem because she showed us all these cases that she had solved.


B†††††††††††† You indicated that this was mostly before the article was published.How shortly after the article was published did you cease having to Ö having any dealings with you or [the grandmother], the family Iíll call it, have any dealings with Louise?


A ††††††††††† Let's see, okay.We had [child's name omitted] for two years.Probably a whole year before that.It was two years in October, so that would be 2004.And we had him for two years, that would take us back to 2002, and then probably almost the whole year before -- actually, it was very shortly after this I think that it sort of ceased.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† She left, and I don't know when she left.


B†††††††††††† Okay.Well, you donít have to speculate.I was just asking in relation to this article, but youíve indicated, you know, probably as precisely as you can given memory of Ö that it was shortly after this article came out that you stopped dealing with her.


A ††††††††††† Yeah.No, this had happened xxx.


B†††††††††††† Okay.The other topic that you speak about in the interview is [Tim] Adams.And again, I think you indicate in here that you had no firsthand knowledge of [Tim] Adams,


A ††††††††††† No.


B†††††††††††† and what he was being accused of, and what heíd been convicted of and so on.Again, who did you hear that information from?The information you did know about.


A ††††††††††† About why [Tim] Adams was barred, or disbarred?


B†††††††††††† Yes.


A ††††††††††† I know [the grandmother] and [Source B] were in the bar at -- or in Bonnie Doon after one of the support meetings, they're called, yeah, and I think [Tim] Adams at that time told them that he was disbarred, and you know that he could give advice, but he charges $90 an hour, but he cannot represent them in court, and I donít know if it was at that time that he revealed why he was barred, but I remember hearing something and I donít even have that clear, something with a 16 year old girl or something, but I canít remember the details.


B†††††††††††† Okay, sure.But that knowledge comes to you from [Source B] and [the nephew], your nephew and Ö


A ††††††††††† No, not [the nephew], [the grandmother].


B†††††††††††† Oh, [the grandmother]. [Source B] and [the grandmother].


A ††††††††††† [The grandmother] and [Source B].


B†††††††††††† Okay.Sorry.


A ††††††††††† But like I say, I donít know if he told them at that -- about why he was disbarred, but he did tell them he was disbarred.


B†††††††††††† Okay.Did you get the information about the reasons for being disbarred from someone other than [the grandmother]? Or [Source B]?


A ††††††††††† About him being disbarred?


B†††††††††††† Right.For example, did Louise discuss that with you at all?


A ††††††††††† I donít know, but it came out at one of the support meetings.I had been to a couple of support meetings, and whether -- I think it even came out there that he said he was, you know, disbarred, but he was still able to work in that capacity.


B†††††††††††† Right.Okay.Maybe Iíll ask it this way, or this question first of all.[Tim] wasnít attempting to hide this or disguise it from anyone, then?I mean xxx.


A ††††††††††† No, I donít think so.


B†††††††††††† No, you mentioned -- he mentions the support meetings and stuff like that, so heís not trying to hide it from anyone.


A ††††††††††† No.


B†††††††††††† Okay.Just going through my list of questions here, making sure that Iíve covered everything.


A ††††††††††† You bet.Of course too then, when youíre told about what was in the book, of course, immediately you think oh, what if?So then youíre torn and you think, well, if thatís the kind of people we have in this organization, and I mean these were all things that were told to me.But like I said, I never read it. But it does Ö it raises a red flag.You think, oh, my goodness, what if?You know?


B†††††††††††† So it would be fair to say that you responded to this information in a way that Ö


A ††††††††††† That I didnít know right, but xxx that way.


B†††††††††††† But out of an abundance of caution, if I can put it that way.


A ††††††††††† Yeah.Exactly.


B†††††††††††† I mean, it raises concerns and so rather than ignore the concerns you react, you know.


A ††††††††††† Thinking that, it was-- I donít believe that at all, not for one minute.


B†††††††††††† Okay.Oh, I have some questions about Dr. Christensenís relationship with your son, or I donít know if thatís the right way to phrase it, but did he ever speak to your son -- or your nephew -- directly?Is it your nephew or your son?


A ††††††††††† My nephew.


B†††††††††††† Nephew.Your nephew directly?Do you know -- like did they ever meet and talk directly, to your knowledge?


A ††††††††††† I don't know if [the nephew] was at a lot of meetings or not.Not many.I donít remember now.


B†††††††††††† Okay.But to your knowledge, did Dr. Christensen ever urge your son directly, that ispersonally with him, to hire Mr. Adams?


A ††††††††††† Not to my knowledge.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† I think it was more for [the grandmother], in conversation more with Dr. Christensen had suggested, you know, seeing [Tim] Adams.


B†††††††††††† Okay.And I know that words can be kind of a fussy thing, but thatís the lawyerís stock-in-trade is to analyze words and so on.Just now you've said, well, I think he suggested that [the grandmother] should see [Tim] Adams or talk to [Tim] Adams and stuff like that, which is quite a bit more mild than suggesting, you know, dump your current lawyer and hire [Tim], or Mr. Adams, right?


A ††††††††††† Yeah.


B†††††††††††† So Iím just going to ask you maybe, and maybe you canít remember, but to the best of your recollection, can you tell me whether it was more along the lines of, you know, ď[Tim] has legal knowledge, he has a law degree, maybe [Tim] would be able to give you some ideas about how to deal with thisĒ, as opposed to ďYour current lawyer is no good, dump your current lawyer, hire [Tim] AdamsĒ.Between those two, would it be more of the first or the second?


A ††††††††††† The first.I think -- now, this is not gospel truth either, but the way I could see it or remember, he had suggested that [Tim] Adams might be able to help them.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† But then, no, I donít recall him saying get rid of your other lawyer.


B†††††††††††† Right, okay.Because in the transcript here you say he said, ďDump your lawyerĒ.


A ††††††††††† Yeah.See, I donít remember that now. [This conversation was four years after the Post events; but since I talked to the sisters about Mr. Adams soon after he became involved with ECMAS, their words to the reporter were spoken at least a year and a half after I did so, already leaving room for time--and emotion--to alter memory. Now here is what the other sister, the grandmother, told my lawyer on this subject in 2005:]†† [Next]†††††


B†††††††††††† All right.Okay.And again, you indicate that Ö


A ††††††††††† Because I donít think he could take us Ö take you on as a client because he was not able to represent you in court.


B†††††††††††† Right.And you knew that at the time, and [Tim] wasnít disguising that from anyone that he couldnít represent in court.You've already Ö


A ††††††††††† Say that again?


B†††††††††††† Well, you've already indicated that you were aware of the fact that [Tim] Adams couldnít represent people in court.


A ††††††††††† Right, right.


B†††††††††††† And he didnít disguise that from anyone.


A ††††††††††† No.No, he was quite open about that.


B†††††††††††† So clearly when Dr. Christensen was urging people to discuss their case with [Tim] Adams, it wasnít with the intention of getting [Tim] Adams necessarily involved in their Ö in handling their case.Would that be fair to say?


A ††††††††††† You mean taking the case right over?


B†††††††††††† Correct.


A ††††††††††† No, I donít think that was the intent.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† If he would just maybe assist the lawyer we already had, eh?


B†††††††††††† Right.Okay.


A ††††††††††† I don't know.


B†††††††††††† Or maybe Iíll put it to you this way, did Dr. Christensen ever present to you or to the group more generally, I mean not necessarily specifically to you, but to the ECMAS group in general that there were three possibilities.One is to hire a lawyer to handle the case, one is to represent yourself, and the third option would be to get kind of like a paralegal assistance.Get someone to help prepare documents and give some kind of ideas about the court processes and that kind of thing, but you would end up having to go to court and actually do the arguments in front of the judge yourself, so you'd be representing yourself to that extent, but you could get the paralegal assistance, that would be the third option.Do you ever recall Dr. Christensen in some way making that Ö


A ††††††††††† Well, I know I've heard those things before.Whether it was Dr. Christensen who said them or not, I donít know, but we knew ourselves that my nephew was not capable of doing that.


B†††††††††††† Not capable of representing himself.


A ††††††††††† Of representing himself.So that would not work.Would've worked for us.


B†††††††††††† Not capable of even getting paralegal assistance and representing himself.


A ††††††††††† No.No, he was not capable of that.


B†††††††††††† Okay.So basically the idea of hiring [Tim] Adams to provide the background assistance and allowing your son to represent himself was a non-starter right from the very beginning.


A ††††††††††† Yeah, it just wouldnít have worked for us.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† I mean the advice would have been nice, but it was another $90 an hour, and we were already strapped down to the bottom of the boots.


B†††††††††††† Right.Well, I mean, if Ö


A ††††††††††† It was just Ö


B†††††††††††† I guess the way to put it is this, if your son needed a lawyer to represent him in court anyway it would have been just a duplication of efforts to hire someone in addition to that to give extra legal advice.


A ††††††††††† Mm-hm.Mm-hm.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† I guess for some people it would have been a good option because it certainly would have been cheaper for them to represent themselves and still have the advice of Dr. Adams.


B†††††††††††† Right.Okay, and thatís -- well Ö


A ††††††††††† Some of them are good at it, others are not.


B†††††††††††† Now when -- let me just go back to Louise Malenfant again for one minute.When she was assisting you, did you still have a lawyer to represent you in court?


A ††††††††††† Yes, we did, and I canít remember the order of lawyers-- we had several, but she -- one, she insisted we fire and get a new lawyer, and now whether that happened or not I canít quite remember, but it seemed to me it did toward the end, right before she left.And -- but whether we picked up another lawyer after that, or whether they just dropped the whole thing, I canít remember.And then of course, we -- Sanderson, and there was a woman lawyer too.What was her name?I canít remember her name. And she got rather annoyed with us because whenever [the nephew] went in to see her, a couple of times Louise insisted on going along, and gave further advice to the lawyer.


B†††††††††††† So that lawyer fired you, in effect.


A ††††††††††† Well, I donít know whether she quit on him or -- I can't remember how all that went anymore.But yeah, there was some involvement with the lawyers that we had.


B†††††††††††† Okay.Just a couple of Ö


A ††††††††††† I got xxx this morning.


B†††††††††††† Just a couple of concluding questions, then.Have you been contacted prior to today by the lawyer for the other side, through National Post, Donna Laframboise?


A ††††††††††† Quite -- well, I donít know how long it was after that came out.


B†††††††††††† After the article came out.


A ††††††††††† After the article came out.


B†††††††††††† Right.


A ††††††††††† Somebody phoned myself that he -- I think he said he was a representative for National Post, and then they also phoned my sister, and his name is Klassen.Does that ring a bell?Or do you know?Are you aware?


B†††††††††††† Fred Kozak possibly?


A ††††††††††† Maybe it was Kozak?I donít know. It started with a 'K' Iím sure, and that if you --they told my sister that if you contacted us not to talk to you.Xxx.


B†††††††††††† They advised you not to talk to us?


A ††††††††††† Mm-hm.


B†††††††††††† And your sister as well?


A ††††††††††† He didnít advise me, he advised my sister. [Since it would have been highly improper for him to do that, this is almost certainly a misunderstanding. To any but a person full of malice like the reporter, this would be a good example of the need to be very cautious about publishing second-hand reports of a person's words as if they were known facts. Her sister (the grandmother) in fact denied to my lawyer that Mr. Kozak had told her any such thing.]

B†††††††††††† Oh, I see.He didnít talk to you though?


A ††††††††††† He talked to me, yeah.


B†††††††††††† Okay.And what did he Ö


A ††††††††††† He basically said that they Ö there was going to be a lawsuit or something, and what did he tell me?I canít remember what he said to me, or that you know -- I think there was, you know, they would get in touch with us at a later date and stuff like that, and then never ever heard from them again.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† But xxx phoned [the grandmother].


B†††††††††††† Did they ask you, or did the lawyer who -- the person who indicated that they were the lawyer representing National Post -- ask you specifically whether you wished to keep your identities secret?For the purposes of these proceedings? [She is asked specifically about what the Post lawyer said later, during defamation proceedings....]


A ††††††††††† Possibly they did, but I canít say for sure either.I really canít. [...but gives her overall anonymity motive:]


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† Mainly because of embarrassment.I didnít want my name out there.


B†††††††††††† Okay.


A ††††††††††† Dumb.


B†††††††††††† Okay.I mean in the transcripts you indicate that one reason you didnít want your name to be used in the article was because of the ongoing litigation in the case.


A ††††††††††† Yes.That was probably one of the main reasons. [But don't forget her differing last name.]††††††††††††††† [Back]