TELEPHONE INTERVIEW

DONNA LAFRAMBOISE (“DL”) AND "The Aunt" (“TA”)

[For reasons given elsewhere, the names of the reporter's four interviewees unnamed in the two articles have been  replaced, in this publicized version of the lawsuit documents, with descriptors and initials (as seen above). In all other ways, this version's wording remains as in the original lawsuit document.--FC]

 

[phone ringing]

 

TA:       Hello.

 

DL:      Hi, may I speak to Mrs. [the aunt] please?

 

TA:       Speaking.

 

DL:      Hi. It's Donna from the National Post calling. How are you?

 

TA:       Hi. I’m fine. How are you?

 

DL:      I’m well. Is this a good time for you to chat. Do you have a few minutes or

 

TA:       Yes, yes, I do. Yeah.

 

DL;      Okay. Um, I have the unfortunate duty of writing a news story for the National Post which we expect will came out early next week and it’s about some of the things that have been happening at ECMAS Edmonton.

 

TA:       Oh, yes.

 

DL:      And I was hoping that maybe you might be able to give me some insight into what was going on. Because I understand that you’ve been a member and you’ve been attending some meetings. And I have all kinds of people telling me all sorts of things.

 

TA:       Uh-huh.

 

DL:      And I was hoping that maybe you might be willing to talk to me.

 

TA:       Oh, sure.

 

DL:      Yeah?

 

TA:       If I can help in any way. But, I haven’t been that active,

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       You know.

 

DL:      How long – when did you first get involved with ECMAS?

 

TA:       I think it’s got to be about, oh, two years at least. Maybe even a little longer. Two-and-a-half years.

U013349

 

-2-

 

DL:      Okay. Two-and-a-half years?

 

TA:       Yeah.

 

DL:      So, it was - was it your own situation or with someone you know?

 

TA:       No. My nephew.

 

DL:      Your nephew.

 

TA:       Yeah. Yeah.     [The reporter immediately changes the subject, and nowhere in this interview asks

about the nephew. (Say, "So he's your brother or sister's son. Did Christensen urge him/them to hire Adams?")

Indeed, why would she interview the aunt at all, instead of someone more central? The only plausible reason, I

submit, is that the reporter wanted only to harm me, not to investigate the facts--and already knew enough about

the sisters' situation from Ms. Malenfant (more on this later) to know that talking to the son/nephew could not give her any more help in achieving that end--he might even say things that would interfere with it. As we will see later, the reporter never really investigated, just collected accusations pre-arranged by Malenfant.]    [Back]

DL:      Okay. And, now, I know that this group does a lot of wonderful work.                 

 

TA:       Uh-huh [affirmative].

 

DL:      Would you agree with that? Can you tell me what – what ECMAS does that’s so valuable from your perspective?

 

TA:       Well, um, they are trying to get gender equality, for one thing. And also they’re trying to help solve problems as far as children that do not have the opportunity, in most cases, to see both parents – in most cases, the fathers.

 

DL:      Right. Right.

 

TA:       And, uh, but its been an ongoing battle and I haven’t seen that much success.

 

DL:      Oh, dear.

 

TA:       You know. I don’t know – we’re not getting the respect from a lot of the media

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       and – or recognition. Like we’ve done a lot of, oh, what do you call it, demonstrating in front of politicians’ offices and things like that and at first we’d get the media out, but now they just sort of, like they hardly pay any attention to us.

 

DL:      Oh, dear.

 

TA:       Yeah. So, It’s – I’m getting very discouraged with the whole thing. And then, of course, I’ve heard of a few things that are going on there now as far as the people that are running it. And I’m not pleased.

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       You know,

U00350

-3-

 

DL:      Right. Okay. Can you tell me what you’ve heard and why you’re concerned – what your concerns might be?

 

TA:       Well, like Ferrel Christensen is one that I had very high regard for. At first he was very – like, he worked very herd and he probably still works very hard. I don’t – I’m not in contact with him as much anymore, But, like he organized meetings and, and called meeting after meeting and I’m running all over the place, you know, to these different houses, you know, that were having gatherings at their house to discuss this and to discuss that. And then I was thrown on a couple of different committees, like the Maintenance Committee I was on for awhile. And we got nowhere. We just got nowhere. [These meetings in different houses (also with government ministry people) were not the weekly and monthly ECMAS meetings but MERGE committee meetings which I set up--FC]

DL:      Oh, dear.

 

TA:       And we tried to stop the change in legislation here about maintenance and we were way too late. Like, they can’t seem to get organized. And by the time we get there, it’s over.

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       You know. And, then, of course, when I heard about his book that was out there -

            I myself have not read the book,

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       but I’ve heard about it and what’s contained in it. Some of the stuff that’s contained in it. And I – I sort of lost all respect for Ferrel. And then he’s a very close friend of this – oh, what’s his name – [Tim] Adams? A lawyer that has been disbarred, I understand. And the reason he was disbarred – I have no respect for this man either and I don’t think they should be involved in trying to change children’s issues, you know, [The 'very close friend' part is parroting Malenfant's fabrication, not her own knowledge.]

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       These are children that are already in trouble. We don’t need people like this, um,

    you know, working with them.

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       And, my question – I sort of question in the back of my mind, now why are they involved

 

DL:      Uh-huh, uh-huh.

 

TA:       with these issues?

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       Is there some gratification? I hope not. [A person who has been led to believe that I myself

might have pedophilic tendencies is clearly apt to be angry enough for emotion to distort her testimony. And

an ethical reporter would have been concerned about that danger. This reporter didn't even ask "TA" (the aunt)

to relate what she had been told about the book's contents.]      [Next]                                        U00351

 

- 4 -

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       And – but, other than that, I really – like and then there’s, you know, different members, too, have come and gone, come and gone. I can see them coming to a meeting and then you never see them again. I’ve gone to a couple of support meetings and they’re always new faces. There’s the odd, you know, regular there

 

DL:      Uh-huh.

 

TA:       but they seem to be new faces all the time. And – but they don’t seem to come back.

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       So, obviously, they’re not getting the help that they’re reaching out for.

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       You know.

 

DL:      Right. Now, when’s the last time you went to one of these meetings – a support group meeting?

 

TA:       I went to – actually their election meeting the other night.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       But, I have not – I wasn’t at a meeting, oh, for a long time before that. Probably, oh gosh, – well, actually, I went to their barbecue which was last July and they sort of had a bit of a meeting there electing new board members and things, eh.

[The aunt has mistaken the MERGE picnic and AGM for an ECMAS event. As will be noted later, the two

DL:      Okay.    sisters went more to the irregularly scheduled MERGE meetings than to any ECMAS ones.]

 

TA:       But as far as an actual regular ECMAS meeting, I probably hadn’t been there for nine, ten months.

 

DL:      Nine or ten months. Okay.

 

TA:       Yeah, yeah.

 

DL:      Now when you were going, were you going to support group meetings on a regular basis or just the other committee meetings and annual meetings and

[Note in the next link that the reporter didn't ask this 'regular basis' question of the other sister, the grandmother.

Had she done so, she would have been told that the other, too, had never gone regularly to ECMAS meetings.]

TA:       I was going to the annual meetings.  I went to the annual meetings a few times.  And then I went to – I thought, well, they talk so much about this support group [TA

must've meant 'general' (monthly), not 'annual'; either way, the reporter knew she had never attended regularly.

Earlier here she said she went to "a couple" of support meetings; she certainly didn't go more than twice.][Next]

DL:      Uh-huh.                                                                                  

 

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-5-

 

TA:       that I wanted to know what that was all about and I heard so much about this [Tim]

Adams.

 

DL:      Uh-huh.

 

TA:       And, so, I thought, I’m going to go, you know,                       

 

DL:      Yes.

 

TA:       and see what this is all about and, you know, like I say, there wasn't much to offer, but Ferrel kept suggesting that we should probably go with [Tim] Adams - go with [Tim] Adams.

 

DL:      What do you mean?

 

TA:       He can help us as far as - for advice and stuff, eh.

 

DL:      So go with [Tim] Adams?

 

TA:       Talk to [Tim] Adams for advice as to what to do next and this type of thing, eh.

 

DL:      So when would he be saying that? At the meetings themselves?

 

TA:       No, just in talking personally to Ferrel.

 

DL:      Okay. Okay.

 

TA:       Yeah. Yeah. And he kept pushing this, talk to [Tim] Adams. And I know [Tim] is at the meetings and questions are quite often directed to the leader who is Jiggs – they call him Jiggs. I don’t know what his real name is.                                      

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       And, you know, if he can’t answer, say, well, [Tim] can probably advise you on that. [Tim] can advise you on that. [Clearly, this is about getting a question answered, not about

helping her nephew to represent himself in court. Farther along, TA does discuss the matter of hiring Adams.

(Follow this thread by skipping over the next highlighted material, down to the symbol '###'.)] ------------->    

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       But like I say, now that I’ve heard what [Tim] Adams has done, I’m not impressed and I don’t think he should be giving advice.

 

DL:      Okay. Okay. Now, now, Just so that I understand you correctly. Was Ferrel Christensen saying to you that your nephew should get – should use [Tim] Adams? Or was it

 

TA:       Yes. Yes.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

U00353

 

-6-

 

TA:       Yeah, you should use [Tim] Adams.

 

DL:      Okay, so did you nephew have a lawyer?

 

TA:       Because lawyers are too expensive. Yes, he does.

 

DL:      Okay. So, did Ferrel know that your nephew had a lawyer?

 

TA:       Yes.

 

DL:      Okay. But you –

 

TA:       Well, we complained, eh, that we – you know, we went to court a few times and – pardon me – and, you know, the high cost – we just couldn’t afford the cost anymore.                                                                                                       [Next]

 

DL:      Yes.

------>  ###

TA:       And he said dump your lawyer. You don’t need a lawyer. Just – [Tim] Adams will help you, you know. Just go to [Tim] Adams. Which we never did.

[Now she is clearly referring to hiring Adams--but in a way ('go to') consistent with just exploring hiring him.]

DL:      Now, did he mention whether [Tim] Adams was going to charge you money or not?

 

TA:       Well, yes, there was some mention of something about – no, what was it? Oh, or did we phone and It was $90 an hour or something that he charged?

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       Yeah. But he couldn’t represent you in court, so it was of no value to, you know, to us.

 

DL:      Right. Now, how many times do you think Ferrel Christensen suggested this? Once? Ten times? Twenty times? You know, you should get [Tim] Adams on your case. [Since all of our discussions were on her nephew's case, it is not clear that TA (the aunt) would 

see this as asking how often I suggested they look into hiring Mr. Adams, rather than getting free information.]

TA:       Um, oh, I would say at least – maybe eight times, I would guess.

 

DL:      Maybe eight times, you would guess?

 

TA:       Yeah. [And given that TA originally spoke of my directing them to [Tim] Adams to get their questions

answered, it isn't clear that she is here distinguishing those occasions from occasions when I suggested that they

look into hiring him. In any case, added together the two types of urging may have added up to eight.]  [Back]

DL:      Okay.  Okay.  So, this would be just, you know, when you were at other meetings  or stuff.

 

TA:       Right.

 

DL:      All right. Good,

 

TA:       Yeah. Yeah.

U00354

 

-7-

 

DL:      Okay. Well, did he ever phone you at home and suggest that to you or

 

TA:       Uh, in phone conversation, yes.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       Cause he’s phoned quite often about different meetings and we’d get to talking about different things. And he says, well, you know, I think you’d be really impressed with [Tim] Adams, eh.

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       You know, get [Tim] Adams to help you.

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       But, like I say, we never did.

 

DL:      Okay. Okay. And why was that? Because

 

TA:       Well, I had a – I don’t know.  I had a funny feeling about it right from the start when I heard that he was disbarred.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       You know, and I thought, no. There’s gotta be a reason. There’s gotta be a good reason for them to be disbarred, I think.

 

DL:      Right. Right. Okay.  Are you aware of anyone in the organization who did, you know, dump their lawyer and go with [Tim] Adams?

 

TA:       Um, there is one fellow I think that did talk to [Tim] Adams.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       And apparently he was served a bill.

 

DL:      Okay. Uh, do you know who that might – his name might be?

 

TA:       His name is – I don’t know what his last name is either – but his name is Hymie. Just a minute. I wonder if I might have a number for him.

 

DL:      Oh, that would be fabulous.

 

TA:       Yeah. Oh, no, I’ve left that information at home, I think.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       Yeah, I don’t have my little note pad here. I’m at my daughter's, eh.

 

U00355

 

-8-

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       Yeah.

 

DL:      Right. If you have a moment sometime, you know, later on in the day or early tomorrow to check and if you have his phone number, it would be very helpful to me.

 

TA:       Okay.

 

DL:      Because I’m actually still tying to find someone who used him. I, you know, I’m talking to people like you who say they were encouraged to use him, but I haven’t found anyone yet who actually used him.

 

TA:       Used him. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I’ll – I don’t know if I’ll get to that – well, I won’t get back to you during your office hours today anymore, but I’ll call you tomorrow morning?

 

DL:      Thank you. Thank you so much. Now did you ever get a card from [Tim] Adams?

 

TA:       No, I don’t

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       No, I never did get a card from him.

 

DL:      Okay. Okay.

 

TA:       Yeah.

 

DL:      Um, so, now some of the stuff you told me is very important for my piece. Can I use your name.

 

TA:       Well, we’re still in the court process.

 

DL:      Okay.   [Having already agreed to anonymity for the other sister on these court-case grounds (we'll

see her quotes shortly), the reporter immediately accepts the aunt's mention of those grounds.]

TA:       Yeah. And, I really don’t think I’d like my name used at this time.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       You know. Because we’re still trying to get our own case --------------.

 

DL:      Okay.  

   

TA:       And

 

DL:      Okay.   [But years later, the aunt was more honest about her motives for wanting anonymity:]  [Next]

 

U00356

 

 

-9-

 

TA:       I wonder who would, let’s see, let their name stand,

 

DL:      Yeah. That’s the problem. Everyone, you know, has got a very good reason, but I’ve got all these people who I can’t

 

TA:       Yeah, see the trouble is with this is just about everybody has dealings going on right now

 

DL:      Yeah. Yeah.

 

TA:       Um I wonder. Have you had access to that book at all?

 

DL:      To which book?

 

TA:       Ferrel’s book.

 

DL:      Yes, I have it right here.

 

TA:       Oh, have you? Oh. Okay.[DL:] And, you know, you know, in fairness to him I think 98% of the book makes some interesting arguments. Some people would agree with them; some wouldn’t.  [This paragraph clearly is mis-transcribed, mixing comments from DL and TA; in the following several paragraphs the speakers are consequently misidentified.]

DL[TA]:Oh, yes.

 

TA[DL]:Um, you know, I’m reasonably sympathetic to many of his arguments. But, the 2% where he talks about kids – and it’s not very much in the book. The book is about pornography; its not about kids. But the 2% of the book where he does talk about kids is a little disturbing. And, you know, like if he was talking, you know, drugs or anything else it wouldn’t matter, but he’s talking about sex and kids.                 [Back]

 

DL[TA]: Yes. Yes,

 

TA[DL]: And he’s involved in this group.

 

DL[TA]: Uh-hum. Uh-hum.

 

TA[DL]:Right? This is what’s troubling, eh. [TA]And he seems to be – like everybody seems    to listen to him. [Here again the two speakers' words are combined; what follows is correct again.]

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       He’s sort of the leader of all – and like I say he has put an awful lot of work into it and he has done an awful lot as far as arranging meetings, and, you know, and it takes a lot of work, eh, to call everybody to see which night is good and all this stuff, eh. But, at the same time, I – nothing seems to ever get completed.  And I think he’s working more on what they call Merge.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

 

UOO357

 

-10-

 

TA:       Um. Which is more gender equality.

 

DL:      Yeah.

 

TA:       Um, so, but then when you come with your children’s problems, he seems to switch it over to the dad’s problem more than concerning with the children.

 

DL:      Oh, Interesting. Okay.                        

 

TA:       Yeah. Yeah.

 

DL:      Right. Right.

 

TA:       So, but he’s using that avenue – he’s using the ECMAS – but he doesn’t – I swear on the whole truth, he doesn’t have a membership in ECMAS. [For two years before that

2001 AGM, with no ECMAS secretary to remind me, I (also others) failed to renew the membership I had paid

(the receipts show) every year since joining. But I paid up at the AGM--before these words were spoken.]    

DL:      Oh, really.

 

TA:       Yeah, ------------------------ he won’t buy a membership. Now why, I don’t know.

[As noted elsewhere, this 'won't buy' is Malenfant's fabrication regarding that simple oversight of mine.]

DL:      But he’s very influential in the group.

 

TA:       Oh, yes. I mean, like even when we had the meeting the other night for election of new members, or the new executive, he did an awful lot of the talking. I would say almost a third of the talking.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       As far as how we should do this and how we should do that and, you know.

 

DL:      How many people were there

 

TA:       I think at that meeting there was probably around 30, 34, 35, somewhere in there.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       Yeah.

 

DL:      Okay. So he was actually taking up a lot of time?

 

TA:       Oh, yes, he was. He was.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       And, you know, a Iot of it is, you know, trying to convince people who to vote for and

–well, [Tim] Adams – I think he really wanted him in there and I don’t know what this will give them now, you know, with him in the executive – with [Tim] Adams in the executive. [Yet again TA is blindly believing Malenfant--but does correct herself below.]

U00358

 

 

- 11 -

 

DL:      So, you said that – so, just to make sure that I’m understanding correctly.

 

TA:       Uh-huh.

 

DL:      At the meeting the other night he was urging people to vote for [Tim] Adams?

 

TA:       No. No, I cant say that.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       No.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       Uh, he was just –just talking in general, eh, that we need a strong, um, you know, um, executive and all the good work that can on and all this stuff, so [Clearly, she can't

 remember. The minutes show I spoke about such things as rules of order, and I introduced the new by-laws.]

DL:      Okay. Okay.

 

TA:       I don’t know. I’ve very disillusioned. Maybe I’m a little . I’m actually very disappointed.

 

DL:      Okay. Well, you know, I don’t think, you know, this kind of thing happens in volunteer organizations. You don’t, you know, you don’t have the time or the energy or the resources to do a criminal records check on everyone.

 

TA:       Yeah, that’s right.

 

DL:      So the issue is when it comes up

 

TA:       Uh-huh.

 

DL:      When you realize that there’s a problem

 

TA:       Right

 

DL:      you know, you deal with it. You know, and if you deal with it and you – then you move on. You know, like, you know, your young MP who kind of screwed up the other week. You know with the talk show, right?

 

TA:       Right. Right.

 

DL:      He made a mistake. He apologized. He – and now It’s old news because he dealt with it.

 

TA:       Right. Right.

 

DL:      Right?

 

U00359

 

-12-

 

TA:       Right.

 

DL:      So, so, I think the question is how is ECMAS going to deal with this?

 

TA:       Yeah. Yeah.

 

DL:      Right?

 

TA:       As long as they will.

 

DL:      Yeah. And, you know, everyone’s human. Everyone’s going to make mistakes from time to time. The question is once you make a mistake

 

TA:       Yeah.

 

DL ____flxit.

 

TA:       Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would like to see him fix it?

 

DL:      Right. So what do you think should happen?

 

TA:       Well, I think [Tim] should probably step down.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       And, I don’t know whether he should even have an active part

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       in the organization. And I don’t think people should be encouraged to go to him for advice.

 

DL:      Okay.

 

TA:       You know, because obviously he – well, he didn’t do right for himself so – I don’t know what kind of advice he can really give. And the fact that he can give advice, Still charge $90 an hour, but he can’t represent you in court, so how far are you going to get with that? It just won’t take you anywhere.

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       You know.

 

DL:      Right.

 

TA:       ‘Cause some people are good at representing themselves in court. Others just can’t do it.

 

DL:      Right.

 

U00360

 

-13-

 

TA:       You know, they’re just too weak.

 

DL:      Right. Well, Mrs. [the aunt], you’ve been very, very helpful. Thank you so much.

 

TA:       You are so welcome and I will call and get that number to you tomorrow morning, but I’m sorry that I, you know, can’t leave my stand.

[As I hear the tape, the word 'name' occurs just before 'stand' in this transcript supplied by Post lawyers--FC]

DL:      No, no, I understand.

 

TA:       Yeah.

 

DL:      If you think of anyone else who I might be able to talk to.

 

TA:       Okay.

 

DL:      Maybe you could leave me their name and number, too.

 

TA:       Okay.

 

DL:      Thank you again.

 

TA:       Thank you.

 

DL:      Have a good day.

 

TA:       You too.

 

DL:      All right. Bye-bye.

 

END OF CONVERSATION

 

111114-1.WPD;Sep/05/O1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

U00361