TELEPHONE
INTERVIEW
DONNA
LAFRAMBOISE ("DL") AND MIKE LE BERGE ("ML")
[NB: Judging from the duration of
this interview as shown in the phone log and comparing with the audio-tape, 28
minutes are missing. All discussions of the contents of my book and of [Tim] Adams' behavior--in contrast to LaBerge's reactions to both--were over
when the taping allegedly began.]
ML: You want to put that on.
DL: Okay, let’s start again. We were very
disappointed to hear.
ML: When the Calgary chapter found —
discovered the election results and the background of the individuals, we were
very disappointed that, uh, uh, that this individual was allowed to run for
office
DL: Okay.
ML: Of a, of a family support organization.
DL: Okay.
ML: And a recommendation to the executive in
Edmonton was that they do some navel- gazing.
DL: Uh-huh.
ML: Evaluate their principle on which they
stand
DL: Uh-huh.
ML: and they may see it appropriate to ask
for the resignation of the individual.
DL: Okay.
ML: Secondly is that nobody within the
organization on an executive basis
should ever be paid for services rendered. And only the executive of an
advocate organization should upon review of person’s, of a person’s business,
decide whether or not they want to recommend their members to them outside of
the organization.
DL: Right.
ML: And our recommendation would be that they have to make a decision whether they want to — they want to refer people to this person outside.
DL: Right. Okay, now, would Calgary—as the
president of Calgary chapter—would you ever refer someone to someone who has
the kind of unsavory past Mr. Adams has.
ML: No.
DL: Okay. Why?
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ML: um, because the credi — because there is
a credibility of — you’re fighting an uphill battle.
DL: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
ML: There’s a war against allegations and
false allegations. It’s being — it’s being promoted, uh, by lawyers and — by
some lawyers. There’s been — it’s being promoted.
DL: False allegations are being promoted?
ML: Oh, yes.
DL: Yeah? Okay.
ML: Yes.
We know some lawyers that promote their individuals and it’s a modus
operandi for some family law lawyers, you get to stage 2 in the false
allegations come out.
DL: Right.
ML: And to, uh, for an individual that has
been truly falsely accused, the proper evaluation of that has to be examined
and to move forward on a credible front.
DL: Okay.
So do you think it would hurt a dad who was falsely accused to be hiring
someone like [Tim] Adams?
ML: Uh,
okay. I don’t know if it would be — it would him to hire him for the business
of evaluating. Because I don’t know his business. Or how he does stuff.
DL: Okay.
ML: Okay?
But, to answer your question, it may not be beneficial for an individual to go
forward into court with this person’s name behind them as the reference.
DL: Okay.
ML: And again, the caveat here, very
importantly, Donna, is I am not familiar with this person’s business. But that
is my own personal view.
DL: Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Okay. Now, if you were to in the next
few days, um, issue a release. Not a
general press release, but some kind of statement that were to make it onto my
desk that said this is the official
position of the Calgary chapter re the matter, we are shocked and
appalled, or these are the steps we’ve taken.
This is our view. It would be useful to quote from something like that.
If you don’t want to do that, I can just, you know, quote you saying what
you’ve said. Um, that’s an option. And,
when is your meeting this weekend going to be over with? When are you going to
be in a position to tell me what's happened at that meeting?
[From ECMAS-Calgary's president the reporter finally gets the response
she sought.] [Back] EE00475
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ML: Uh, probably Saturday evening.
DL: Saturday evening, okay.
ML: Yeah.
DL: Okay. Um, and then, you know, we can
report there was — that was. Is the Lethbridge reps going up as well?
ML: No.
DL. No?
Okay.
ML: No, too far. And the weather’s pretty
nasty.
DL: Okay. Okay.
ML: Yeah.
And the thing is, you know, Donna, you have to remember here, is that I
don’t even have to do — I not even a — see the way ECMAS — ECMAS owns the ECMAS
name trade name.
DL: Okay.
ML: That’s all.
DL: Okay.
ML: And we, as an organization here, you
know, they have a set of by-laws and everything that are a good set of by-laws.
DL: Right.
ML: And, back in about 1991 or so, 1991,
1992,1 can’t remember where the heck it was
— or
somewhere in there, we got together with the — some groups that were in
Lethbridge, Edmonton and Calgary and we all met here in Calgary and, um, we
said look, you know, we’re — why don’t we do this? And basically, they hold the
name. But we’re all different groups.
DL: Right.
ML: So, we operate under a completely— no,
not under a completely different set of by- laws, but we do have our sub-set of
by-laws in - as to how we operate and all of the different areas are completely
independent.
DL: Right. So, in, in — so, in some ways you
have the misfortunate of sharing the name.
ML: Exactly.
DL: Although not much else. EE00476
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ML: That’s correct. So, it, you know, that’s what I’m
stating. And what I said to Louise is
that, you know, just by association of the name it better be damned clear what
is going on and where it lies because otherwise it— it is falsely accusing
people down here.
DL: Yes.
ML: And, and that I’m very adamant about.
DL: Yeah.
ML: Because I can’t in my personal business
and life, in dealing with the provincial government — Donna, we're very close
here in getting some major changes in Alberta.
And, and, uh, I’m putting this conference on hold for these false
allegations. Because there’s no way we’re going to run anything like this where
anybody can completely discount what’s being done.
DL: Right.
ML: It’s too important.
DL: Right.
ML: And, uh, but, you know, we’ve — I helped
quite extensively with Ralph Klein’s campaign and also our MLA in through here.
DL: Yeah.
ML: And my MLA probably, may end up with the
Justice portfolio
DL: Oh, wow.
ML: here for the province.
DL: Wow.
ML: You know, we’ve discussed a number of
times with — with them about the — about what is going on and how its killing
taxpayers.
DL: Yeah.
ML: I mean, they’re losing taxpayers by the
dozens.
DL: Uh-huh.
ML: And viable families and that and it’s
causing —they’re causing social problems. So, you know, what I’m saying is that
this stuff - that’s why I’m getting involved with the Edmonton group.
Otherwise, I’d say, guys, you know, look at your navel and go fix your own damn
problem. EE00477
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DL: Yeah. Yeah.
ML: I don’t have — I don’t have to get
involved with this.
DL: Yeah.
ML: But it’s — it has implications that are
too wide-reaching that adversaries out there would just love to get their claws
into.
DL: Exactly. Exactly.
ML: And as far as Ferrel Christensen is concerned, I'll make my recommendations. Okay, first of all, I’m not completely familiar with all of the Ferrel
Christensen stuff. So, to make recommendations accordingly, is premature on my
part at this time.
DL: Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
ML: You
know, it’s — that would be irresponsible on my part [Yet he did do that very thing.
Making the claims he did despite its being irresponsible can only
be due to trust in, or fear of, the reporter.]
DL: Yeah.
ML: to
go with it.
DL: Yeah.
ML: However,
you know, my recommendation would be that, based on the
allegations that are coming out and the, uh, from, you know, through the press and that, is, uh, I think the
organization up there should, uh, you know, really look at their affiliation
and the dealings with, with Mr. Christensen. Um, and also how he is allowed to
deal with members in their organization. [So: he'll make a "recommendation" due
to allegations
over my book about to be
in the news; only the reporter's own word on that would have had any authority,
DL: Uh-huh.
Uh-huh. so clearly
she had told him she would publish bad things about it.] [Back]
ML: Because,
there seems to be a, you know,
there is a stated level of inappropriateness that is severe enough to
question their credibility.
DL: Yeah.
ML: And for that reason, guys, you know — and
that's what I’m going to be discussing with them is this is your bag. You’re up
here. You have your people. And it is, uh, you have your own regional issues.
They’re different up there than they are in Calgary, believe it or not.
DL: Yeah.
ML: um, so, if you determine that this person
is what you need in order to get the job done, then we’ll have to make our
decision here and, here’s a quote, that,
you know, based on some of the decisions and the implications with the
name of
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ECMAS, the
Calgary chapter and possibly the Lethbridge chapter may have to look
at changing
their name — consider an option of changing their name.
DL: Right. Right.
ML: Because that’s — that’s the, uh, that’s
the straw that binds.
DL: Right. Okay.
ML: Is the name.
DL: Yeah.
ML: And, uh, and we operate in a different
manner.
DL: Right.
Right. Okay. Sounds good.
Okay. Now, whenever
this story comes out, it may just
drop like a stone and completely disappear or it may catch the attention of
some other media outlets, particularly local ones in your province.
ML: Yeah.
DL: So, that may be
another reason why you might consider a formal statement. You might consider putting that
formal statement when the time comes on your website, so it’s very easy for
people to find it.
ML: Yeah.
The website is run by Edmonton. [And here the reporter learned that the Calgary branch of ECMAS didn't
even have its own website.] [Back]
DL: Okay. Okay. Okay. So, you know, you might have a formal statement
ready that, you get a media call,
you can say, actually we have a statement we’d love to fax it to you.
Um, and you might consider in that statement, because the questions are being
raised, of course, are about, you know, inappropriate attitudes
towards sex with minors. It would be very useful for me as a journalist
to be able to quote what your position is on that particular topic. What is the position of your organization? Is
it appropriate for people to have sex with minors?
[Notice well the forced choice:
Either you side with me against ECMAS-Edmonton, or you approve of sex with minors. She offers no other options such as 'Adams has reformed' or 'Christensen's
book was misread'. That is
manipulation.]
ML: Absolutely
not. [Now go to the next
highlighted
material 4 pages down.] ----->
DL: Pardon me.
ML: No, absolutely not.
DL: Okay. Well, but, you know, those are the
questions
ML: Right.
DL: you know, I as a journalist should be
asking you and getting a response from.
ML: Uh-huh EE00479
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DL: Okay. So, absolutely not. Do you want to
add anything to that?
ML: Uh, no. Our-
Equitable Child Maintenance and Access Society is exactly that. It’s equitable and it's child-based.
DL: Okay.
ML: Anything that is involved with the
harming of children, which most definitely is inappropriate — is having sex
with children — is totally inappropriate.
DL: Okay.
ML: The promotion of such is inappropriate.
Is not equitable and is not fair.
DL: Okay.
ML: And is damaging to families.
DL: Damaging to families? Good line.
ML: And that is — that is equally along with
the laws, the current divorce laws, custody laws, access laws and allegations — lack of action
on allegations — are all harmful to children.
DL: Okay.
ML: And that’s why we’re in this.
DL: Okay. Harmful to children. Okay. That’s
why we’re in this. Okay.
ML: Okay, that’s why we’re in this. Is to
eliminate those inequities.
DL: Okay. Okay.
ML: And we won’t — we will not support people
or groups that — um, that support those views.
DL: People or groups who support those views.
Okay. Who support those
views. Okay. Okay.
I’m sorry about all of this. Um, I really struggled with this story and
the decision that I came to is that I would not let a women’s group
ML: Grab hold of it.
DL: Well, no, no.
ML: _______________
do have it Donna.
DL: It’s — If I saw this kind of
inappropriateness going on in a women’s group, I would call them on it.
EE00480
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ML: Right.
DL: Okay. Even if they were volunteers with
no money. Even if they had the best cause in the world, I would say, look it,
this really raises questions about their judgment. And if I would call a
women’s group on it, then I have
ML: You have to do the same.
DL: I’ll have to do the same here.
ML: No, I understand that. I understand that.
DL: So, it’s, you know, I’m going to try to
be as fair and even-handed and as careful of the reputation of Calgary and
Edmonton, or and Lethbridge as I possibly can.
ML: Well, we aren’t affiliated with that
group of what’s going on up there.
DL: Yeah.
ML: Uh, Donna, that’s — that’s as clear as —
as clear as glass.
DL: Right.
ML: I’ll be — you know, there’s — that’s
written in the by-laws. It’s written in the chapter
DL: Actually, if you could send me by e-mail
or fax me those by-laws and sort of kind of put an asterisk beside that. That
would be useful for me to quote in my piece. Are you still there?
ML: Yeah.
DL: Yeah.
ML: I’m just trying to think where they — we
just moved and everything
DL: Sure.
ML: and I’ve got things in boxes.
DL: Yeah, I’m sorry.
ML: so
DL: I’m sorry. But, you know, if I can
actually say, this is what the by-laws say. They share the same name but
they’re actually pretty independent.
ML: Well, we’re completely independent.
DL: Okay. EE00481
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ML: There’s not pretty anything about it.
DL: Right.
ML: It’s completely independent. And we work
in conjunction on various issues.
DL: Okay.
ML: Um, that’s — that’s clear.
DL: Okay.
ML: That’s absolutely clear.
DL: Okay.
ML: So, the only thing that is shared is that
the — Edmonton holds the trade name for Equitable Child Maintenance and Access
Society.
DL: Okay.
ML: Period. That’s the only thing.
DL: Okay. Okay. Well, except you also work on
the same issues, so you have shared interests and you have a shared name.
ML: Yeah.
DL: Okay. Okay. So, okay.
ML: But, it’s — it’s a legally shared name
only.
DL: Okay.
ML: They are completely different groups.
DL: Okay. Now, I’ve got to let you go ‘cause
I can only catch Bob Bouvier right now.
ML: Okay.
DL: um, but
ML: What’s your — whats your — I do have your
e-mail. What is your — would this by e- mail suffice? Some of this information.
DL: Sure. Sure.
ML: Okay.
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DL: Okay. The e-mail is dlaframboise at
National Post dot com
ML: at National Post dot corn.
DL: Yeah.
ML: And your fax:
DL: 416-383-2439.
ML: Okay.
--------->
DL: And why don’t you when you get a moment on Sunday after you’ve had your meeting on Saturday, drop me a line and tell me what’s happened and if there’s anything else that you want to say as a statement as the president of Calgary ECMAS regarding this matter? [The part of this
conversation about
the meeting is missing (too trivial to record, says
the reporter!). But what decision was to be taken there is indicated in his
e-mail a few
hours later, recall: His
group would secede unless ECMAS-Edmonton expelled Mr. Adams and me.]
ML: Uh-huh.
DL: So
that, you know, we can write that story on Monday.
ML: Okay.
DL: And, as I say, it’s going to be a story that says, they screwed up; they fixed it. The only question now is how good a job have they done of fixing it. [It is clear from these words that her story will harm ECMAS-Calgary, too, if they too don't do enough about "fixing it".] [Back]
ML: Okay. Well, okay. Again, glad it’s their
stuff. Bob Bouvier is the president up there.
DL: Yeah.
ML: I’ve been talking to Elsie __________
because that’s who I know. And when I found out some of this stuff, I wanted to
talk to somebody that I knew. And I think she’s past president. Because I don’t
know Bob.
DL: Uh-huh.
ML: And I wanted to find out what the hell’s
happening.
DL: Yeah.
ML: um, my involvement with this only is on
the basis of an outsider
DL: Yeah.
ML: by rights. Because I have absolutely no
right — I can make all the — I’m not even a member of their organization.
DL: Right. EE00483
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ML: You see.
DL: Yeah.
ML: And, um,
DL: You're in a very difficult
position and I feel very badly for you. I'm sorry.
ML: You know, but, uh, you
know, the clarity is to — this is a local issue with some volunteers that they
screwed up.
DL: Yeah.
ML: They screwed up in their
judgment.
DL: Yeah.
ML: um, they have some
decision to make as to what they want to do. And it can have implications with
other groups that are really not really affiliated with it other than having
the same name. That's like Louie LeBerge
in Montreal is the union leader and everything. When he slam dunks somebody, it
means that everybody by the name of LeBerge across the country should be shot.
DL: Right
ML: You know, it's — it's —
you know, there's a parallel there.
DL: Yeah. Yeah.
ML: And that has to be rnade
absolutely clear.
DL: Okay. Okay. Okay. I got to
run.
ML: All right.
DL: But, we'll touch base, I'm
sure on Monday. Okay?
ML: Okay. Now, I'm up there —
I'm up there for a family — for family business.
DL: Yeah.
ML: And with this stuff coming
up, I'm meeting with these people.
DL: Yeah.
ML: To see just what — I mean,
they might, you know, Donna, they might just turn around and say, you know, who
the hell are you, you're not even in this area or a member.
EE00484
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DL: Yeah.
ML: We don't even want to meet
with you.
DL: Yeah.
ML: In which case we have some
decisions to make ourselves.
DL: Right.
ML: And that's where it stands
is I can only have opinions
DL: Right.
ML: and recommendations and
they can take them and put them in file 13 for all they want.
DL: Yeah.
ML: um, and, uh, hopefully
they don't, but if they do, that's — that's there business.
DL: Right.
ML: And we have our own
business here to make decisions on.
DL: Yeah.
ML: And our decisions would be
if they maintain the affiliations that they have, one of the decisions may be
to — would be to bring to our executive the proposal to potentially change the
name
DL: Right.
ML: in Calgary.
DL: Right.
ML: It's as simple as that.
DL: Right. Okay.
ML: All right?
DL: I gotta run. Thank you so
much.
ML: Okay, Donna.
DL: Talk to you soon. Bye.
EE00485
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ML: Talk to you. Bye.
END OF CONVERSATION
113085-1.WPD;Sep/12/01
EE00486