[As noted elsewhere, this
professionally produced document has been altered in one respect, replacing the
names of certain individuals by brief descriptors in brackets to protect their
identity.]
Action No. 0103-14569
IN THE COURT OF QUEEN'S
BENCH OF
JUDICIAL DISTRICT
OF EDMONTON
BETWEEN:
FERREL
CHRISTENSEN
Plaintiff
- and -
THE NATIONAL POST COMPANY,
NP HOLDINGS COMPANY,
GLOBAL COMMUNICATIONS LIMITED
and DONNA LAFRAMBOISE
Defendants
------------------------------------------------------------
CONTINUED EXAMINATION
FOR DISCOVERY
OF
FERREL MARVIN
CHRISTENSEN
(Volume
II)
------------------------------------------------------------
G. A. Brown, Esq. For the Plaintiff
F. S. Kozak, Esq. For the Defendants
P. L. E. Eastwood, Esq.
D. L. Ragan, C.S.R. (A) Official Court Reporter/
Examiner
17th and 18th
February, 2005
00001
INDEX
INDEX OF
EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
D-7 PHOTOCOPY OF "SELECTED 367
CROSS-GENERATIONAL SEXUAL
BEHAVIOR IN
TRADITIONAL
ETHNOGRAPHY," WRITTEN
BY
DIAMOND, TAKEN FROM THE
TEXT TITLED
PEDOPHILIA, BIOSOCIAL
DIMENSIONS
D-8 COPY OF AN ARTICLE TITLED 378
"SOCIOPOLITICAL
BIASES IN THE
CONTEMPORARY SCIENTIFIC
LITERATURE ON
ADULT HUMAN SEXUAL
BEHAVIOR WITH
CHILDREN AND
ADOLESCENTS" TAKEN FROM
THE TEXT PEDOPHILIA,
BIOSOCIAL
DIMENSIONS
INDEX OF
UNDERTAKINGS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
12 ADVISE OF ANY OTHER REASONS 119
DR. CHRISTENSEN BELIEVES
PARAGRAPH
15(B) IN THE STATEMENT OF
DEFENSE IS
INCOMPLETE AND POTENTIALLY
MISLEADING.
13 PROVIDE COPIES OF EMAILS THAT WOULD 128
OUTLINE THE BOUNDARIES OF
MS. MALENFANT'S DUTIES AND
RESPONSIBILITIES AND HER
EXPECTED ROLE
THAT MIGHT RELATE BACK TO
THE SCOPE OF
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S
INVITATION TO HER.
14 PROVIDE TO PLAINTIFF'S COUNSEL THE 142
NAMES OF CLIENTS THAT [TIM]
ADAMS
OBTAINED BECAUSE OF THEIR
INVOLVEMENT
WITH ECMAS. ADVISE WHETHER THERE IS AN
ISSUE OF CONFIDENTIALITY;
IF SO,
PROVIDE THE PLAINTIFF'S
POSITION WITH
RESPECT TO THAT ISSUE.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00002
15 PROVIDE THE NAME OF THE FEMALE LAWYER 147
THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN
RECOMMENDED TO
VISITORS TO ECMAS.
(ANSWERED ON PAGE 148)
16 (UNDER ADVISEMENT) PRODUCE ALL OF THE175
NOTES THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN
HAS FOR
SUPPORT GROUP MEETINGS.
17 PRODUCE ANY EMAILS OR OTHER DOCUMENTS 213
THAT DR.
CHRISTENSEN HAS THAT DOCUMENT
THE FALLING OUT OR THE
DETERIORATION IN
HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH
LOUISE MALENFANT.
18 PROVIDE COPY OF THE JANUARY 26TH, 2001230
LETTER FROM THE CHIEF JUSTICE.
19 IF DR. CHRISTENSEN IS UNABLE TO LOCATE232
HIS COPY OF THE JANUARY
26TH, 2001,
LETTER FROM THE CHIEF
JUSTICE, MAKE A
REQUEST FOR A COPY OF THE
LETTER FROM
THE CHIEF JUSTICE THROUGH
COUNSEL.
20 PROVIDE A TYPEWRITTEN COPY OF 238
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S
HANDWRITTEN MINUTES
OR NOTES TAKEN FROM
SUPPORT GROUP
MEETINGS.
(DOCUMENT 96 IN THE
PLAINTIFF'S
PRODUCTION)
21 FURTHER TO UNDERTAKING NUMBER 4, WHICH243
WAS TAKEN UNDER
ADVISEMENT, ADVISE IF
THERE ARE OTHER EMAILS NOT PRODUCED
REGARDING DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S
CORRESPONDENCE BOTH TO AND
FROM
DR. DIAMOND WITH RESPECT
TO ISSUES
RAISED IN THIS LAWSUIT.
22 IDENTIFY IN THE ARTICLE TITLED "MORAL
256
FERVOR WITHOUT ACCURATE
KNOWLEDGE DOES
EVIL" THOSE PASSAGES
WHICH
DR. CHRISTENSEN SUGGESTS
IDENTIFY THAT
HE HAS CONDEMNED ADULT/CHILD
SEXUAL
RELATIONSHIPS IN THIS
ARTICLE.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00003
23 IDENTIFY THE META-ANALYSIS OF STUDIES 257
OF CHILD SEX ABUSE
REFERRED TO IN THE
ARTICLE TITLED "MORAL
FERVOR WITHOUT
ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE DOES
EVIL."
24 PROVIDE THE REMAINDER OF ANY 268
CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN DR. CHRISTENSEN
AND STEPHANE C. GIROUX
THAT HE MIGHT
HAVE STILL IN HIS
POSSESSION, POWER, OR
CONTROL, RELEVANT TO THE
ISSUES IN THIS
LAWSUIT.
25 PRODUCE ANY FURTHER DOCUMENTS THAT 271
DR. CHRISTENSEN MIGHT HAVE
WITH RESPECT
TO CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN
HIMSELF AND
CATHY YOUNG THAT ARE
RELEVANT TO THE
LAWSUIT.
26 IDENTIFY THE DATE THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN273
SENT MIKE LABERGE A COPY
OF THE ESSAY
REFERRED TO IN DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S EMAIL
TO MARINA FORBISTER OF
APRIL 28TH,
2001.
27 ADVISE IF THERE ARE ANY PORTIONS OF 278
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
WHERE HE
CONDEMNS INTERGENERATIONAL
SEX.
28 ADVISE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE 280
ANY PASSAGES IN
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
THAT ALLUDE TO
INTERGENERATIONAL SEX,
OTHER THAN THE REFERENCE
AT THE BOTTOM
OF PAGE 112.
29 FURTHER TO DR. CHRISTENSEN'S ASSERTION287
THAT THE TOPIC OF
ADULT/CHILD SEXUAL
RELATIONSHIPS ARE NOT
IDENTIFIED IN HIS
BOOK, ADVISE OF ANY CHANGE
IN THAT
ASSERTION AND IDENTIFY
EITHER PASSAGES
IN THE TEXT OF
HIS BOOK OR OTHER WORKS
REFERRED TO IN THE TEXT OR
FOOTNOTES OR
BIBLIOGRAPHY WHERE
INTERGENERATIONAL
SEX WAS A TOPIC OF THOSE
PASSAGES OR
STUDIES.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00004
30 ADVISE OF OTHER PASSAGES IN 290
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT
WHICH HELP TO
DEFINE THE TERM
"EARLY SEXUAL
EXPERIENCE" AS USED
IN THE SENTENCE
QUOTED WITHIN THE SECOND
PARAGRAPH ON
PAGE 110 OF THE TEXT.
31 ADVISE IF THERE'S ANY PASSAGES IN 291
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
THAT MIGHT
DEFINE THE TERM
"SEXUAL ACTIVITY" AS IT
IS USED IN THE PASSAGE
QUOTED ON PAGE
111 OF THE TEXT.
32 ADVISE WHETHER THERE ARE ANY OTHER 292
PASSAGES IN DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT
WHICH HELP DEFINE THE TERM
"SEX PLAY"
AS USED IN THE SENTENCE
QUOTED FROM THE
SECOND PARAGRAPH ON PAGE
111 OF THE
TEXT.
33 ADVISE AS TO ANY PASSAGES IN 294
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT
WHERE HE FURTHER
DEFINES OR DISCUSSES THE
WORDS OR
PHRASE "EROTICALLY
EXPLICIT MATERIALS"
AS USED IN THE SENTENCE
QUOTED IN THE
THIRD PARAGRAPH ON PAGE
111 OF THE
TEXT.
34 ADVISE OF OTHER PASSAGES IN 295
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
WHERE HE REFERS
TO "DEVIANT
SEX," WHICH WILL HELP TO
UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANT
WHEN HE
REFERRED TO "DEVIANT
SEX" IN THE
PASSAGE QUOTED FROM THE
THIRD PARAGRAPH
ON PAGE 111 OF THE TEXT.
35 IDENTIFY PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S302
BOOK THAT SHOW THAT
MORALITY IS
RELEVANT TO ISSUES
INVOLVING CHILDREN'S
SEXUALITY.
36 IDENTIFY PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S311
BOOK THAT DEAL WITH THE
TOPIC OR ALLUDE
TO THE TOPIC OF TEACHING
SEXUAL
RESTRAINT.
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00005
37 IDENTIFY THE STUDIES THAT 331
DR. CHRISTENSEN RELIED ON
IN SUPPORT OF
THE SENTENCE QUOTED FROM
THE SECOND
PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 89 OF
THE TEXT,
STUDIES THAT ARE NOT
IDENTIFIED IN THE
BOOK.
38 ADVISE WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE 338
PASSAGES IN DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
WHICH RELY ON OR USE
INFORMATION
CONTAINED IN THE ARTICLE
"CROSS-GENERATIONAL
SEX IN TRADITIONAL
HAWAI'I."
39 ADVISE WHAT PASSAGES OR PORTIONS OF 343
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT MAY
HAVE RELIED
ON THE CONTENT OF THE
ARTICLE TITLED
"SOCIOPOLITICAL
BIASES IN THE
CONTEMPORARY SCIENTIFIC
LITERATURE ON
ADULT HUMAN SEXUAL BEHAVIOR WITH
CHILDREN AND
ADOLESCENTS" IN JAY R.
FEIERMAN'S PEDOPHILIA,
BIOSOCIAL
DIMENSIONS.
40 ADVISE AS TO THE CORRECT IDENTIFICATIO347
OF THE ARTICLE
WRITTEN BY DONNA
LAFRAMBOISE ABOUT SENATOR
ANNE COOLS
THAT MIGHT HELP THE
DEFENDANTS TO
PRODUCE OR OBTAIN THE
ARTICLE.
41 ADVISE WHETHER THE MARCH 24, 2001, 348
EMAIL WAS SENT TO PERSONS
IN ADDITION
TO DONNA LAFRAMBOISE AND
THOSE PEOPLE
IDENTIFIED IN THE CC
LINES.
42 IDENTIFY ALL OTHER PARTIES THAT 350
DR. CHRISTENSEN
SENT THE EMAIL DATED
APRIL 3RD, 2001.
(TAB 37 OF THE PLAINTIFF'S
PRODUCTION)
43 ADVISE AS TO A RECORD OR RECORDS WHICH358
WOULD SHOW THE PARTICULAR
VOTE MADE BY
THE US CONGRESS WHICH
CONDEMNED THE
META-ANALYSIS REFERRED TO
IN THE FOURTH
PARAGRAPH OF PAGE E-3,
WHICH IS
ATTACHED TO THE
PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO
STATEMENT OF DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO
COUNTERCLAIM.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00006
44 PROVIDE A COPY OF THE SURVEY OF 359
LITERATURE BY THREE
PROFESSORS IN THE
FACULTY OF MEDICINE, AT
THE UNIVERSITY
OF AUCKLAND, REFERRED TO
IN THE
PARENTHESES IN THE FOURTH
PARAGRAPH OF
PAGE E-3, WHICH
IS ATTACHED TO THE
PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO
STATEMENT OF
DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO
COUNTERCLAIM.
45 IDENTIFY WHAT ADDITIONAL ARTICLES 360
DR. CHRISTENSEN WAS
RELYING ON OR
REFERRING TO WHEN HE
MENTIONED
"SUBSEQUENT
STUDIES" IN THE FOURTH
PARAGRAPH OF PAGE E-3,
WHICH IS
ATTACHED TO THE
PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO
STATEMENT OF DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO
COUNTERCLAIM.
46 ADVISE AS TO DR. CHRISTENSEN'S 371
UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD
"NONADULT" AS
USED BY MILTON DIAMOND IN
THE ARTICLE
TITLED "SELECTED
CROSS-GENERATIONAL
SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN
TRADITIONAL HAWAI'I:
A SEXOLOGICAL
ETHNOGRAPHY."
47 AFTER REVIEWING PORNOGRAPHY, THE OTHER378
SIDE, ADVISE WHAT PORTIONS OR PASSAGES
IN THE BOOK MAY HAVE BEEN
BASED ON THE
CONTENT OF EXHIBIT D-8.
48 IF THE ARTICLE "SEXUAL
CALLOUSNESS 383
RE-EXAMINED" WAS NOT
THE ARTICLE
REFERRED TO IN THE
FOOTNOTES FOLLOWING
THE ARTICLE TITLED
"CULTURAL AND
IDEOLOGICAL BIAS IN
PORNOGRAPHY
RESEARCH," PROVIDE
THE ARTICLE THAT IS
BEING REFERRED TO IN THAT FOOTNOTE.
49 PROVIDE A COPY OF THE ARTICLE TITLED 384
"EFFECTS OF
PORNOGRAPHY, THE DEBATE
CONTINUES."
50 ADVISE AS TO SPECIFIC OPPORTUNITIES TO392
PARTAKE IN
ACTIVITIES THAT
DR. CHRISTENSEN OTHERWISE
WOULD HAVE
PARTAKEN IN THAT HAVE BEEN
LOST TO HIM
BECAUSE OF THE PUBLICATION
OF THE
STATEMENTS HE HAS
COMPLAINED OF IN THE
ARTICLE.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00007
51 PROVIDE ANY INSTANCES, ASIDE FROM THE
LETTER FROM THE CHIEF JUSTICE, WHICH
DR. CHRISTENSEN CLAIMS
SHOWS THAT
OPPORTUNITIES HAVE BEEN
DENIED TO HIM
BY OTHERS BECAUSE OF THE
STATEMENTS
THAT HE HAS COMPLAINED
ABOUT IN HIS
STATEMENT OF CLAIM.
Undertakings listed in this
transcript are provided
for your assistance only. Counsel's records may
differ. Please check transcript to ensure that all
undertakings have been listed
according to your
records.
MR. KOZAK EXAMINES THE
WITNESS 111
MR. EASTWOOD EXAMINES THE
WITNESS 245
A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
[For a list of
the errors below that were later corrected, see Discoveries-FCCorrigenda.htm.]
00111
1
FERREL MARVIN CHRISTENSEN, AFFIRMED AT 10:00 A.M.,
2 EXAMINED BY MR. KOZAK:
3
Q Dr. Christensen, I want to ask
you a series of
4 questions that relate to the Statement
of Defense
5 that was filed on behalf of the
Defendants in this
6 action, and your counsel will provide
you with a
7 copy of that document, and I want you
to refer to
8 paragraph 15.
9
A Okay. Is there a comment to that?
10
Q Yes. Paragraph 15 has a number of subparagraphs,
11 (a) through (t). Do you see them there?
12
A Oh, yes.
13
Q All right. Now, in your reply to this pleading,
14 you acknowledged that 15(a) through (s)
were true,
15 but your reply went on to say that each
of those
16 paragraphs, when taken in context, is
either
17 irrelevant to the words complained of,
or
18 incomplete and misleading, or both, and
I want to
19 spend some time going through these
paragraphs and
20 have you identify which category each
of these fall
21 into, and why.
22
A Sounds good.
23
Q So starting with (a), which
reads:
24 "The Equitable Child
Maintenance and
25 Access Society, hereinafter ECMAS,
26 is a nonprofit corporation
27 incorporated April 14th, 1994, and
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00112
1 has an Edmonton chapter."
2 That is something that you've confirmed
to be true
3 in your pleading. Can you tell me if that
4 statement is irrelevant to the words
that you've
5 complained of?
6
A If I understand the legalese
here --
7
Q Yes.
8
A -- it certainly doesn't seem
relevant to me.
9 Obviously, it's a part of the whole
case, but in
10 the particular matter here, it's not
anything
11 actionable, and so irrelevant in that
sense, I
12
would say.
13
Q All right. Is that statement, in your view,
14 incomplete and misleading?
15
A Not to my knowledge, no.
16
Q Thank you. The second paragraph reads:
17 "Some persons involved with
ECMAS
18 have been falsely accused of
19 sexually abusing children."
20 You've confirmed that as being true in
your reply.
21 Do you confirm that today?
22 A
Yes.
23
Q And is that statement
irrelevant to the words that
24 you've complained of from the article?
25
A Well, let me see. In the context of the case, it's
26 potentially misleading. Again, the legalese I may
27 be unclear on, but it's potentially
misleading as
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00113
1 regards some of the issues that may
arise in the
2 case, or seem to have arisen in the
case, the point
3 being that, as a matter of agreement
between the
4 two organizations, ECMAS and MERGE,
those who
5 were -- presented themselves as falsely
accused of
6 sexually abusing children were sent
over to and
7 dealt with by ECMAS -- or, sorry, by
MERGE rather
8 than by ECMAS, as a matter of division
of labor
9 between the two groups. ECMAS dealt specifically
10 with access, maintenance and custody
issues. MERGE
11 dealt with such related items as family
violence,
12 family abuse, and false accusations of
that, and it
13 was to this -- perhaps you can see why
this is
14 somewhat relevant to the case, and so
some of the
15 things that are said in the case would
bear on
16
this, and it would -- it would
be important to
17 understand, even though these people
came to ECMAS
18 with this problem, they were not dealt
with by
19 ECMAS for this problem. I hope that's clear.
20 Q
Well, that certainly helps me understand the
21 different mandates of the two groups.
22 Now, you referred to an agreement
between
23 ECMAS and MERGE in giving me your
answer.
24
A Very informal about -- agreement made about
1995 or
25 '96 or so between me and the person who
was
26 president at that time.
27
Q And who was that?
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00114
1
A Caroline Van Ee.
2
Q And was that agreement ever
reduced to writing?
3
A I believe not.
4
Q And whose idea was that?
5
A It was probably mine in the
first instance because
6 before ECMAS came along, there was
really nobody
7 in -- no organization in town to try to
help people
8 or deal with people having any kind of
divorce
9 problem.
10 Once ECMAS arose, it no longer
made very good
11 sense for an organization that was
focused
12 specifically on gender equality to deal
with this
13 much more specialized set of problems
having to do
14 with divorce and separation. In theory, the two
15 organizations could have gone on each
dealing with
16 those problems, but when you have
little volunteer
17 groups, it is counterproductive to
compete with
18 each other for resources. Better to divide,
19 separate the work between you, and that
was the
20 most obvious way to do it.
21
Q And so when this agreement was
reached in or about
22 1995 or 1996, had both ECMAS and MERGE
been dealing
23 with the same issues for some time?
24
A The same issues being?
25
Q Being the entire --
26
A Divorce?
27
Q Yes.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00115
1
A Divorce-type issues? MERGE hadn't been doing much
2 with it. It's a bit complicated by the fact that
3 there was a precursor organization to
ECMAS, and it
4 was not incorporated with the province,
and I have
5
less knowledge of what they
were doing. We had
6 some contact, but they were just
growing and
7 getting started, and I'm not -- I don't
have an
8 awfully good memory of all that they
were doing,
9 but, in any case, sometime before that
agreement,
10 they were -- they were doing their work
with
11 divorce-type problems. That's about as much as I
12 can say.
13
Q The precursor organization,
was that CAPE?
14
A No. No.
They had a name that had "Men" in it, and
15 they eventually decided they wanted to
be gender
16 inclusive, so they changed their name,
and I can't
17
even remember that name. They were really small at
18 that stage. They had no real publicity. Well, not
19 much publicity.
20 It's hard for me to give a very
clear answer
21 to what you're saying because of the
time lapse and
22 so on.
23
Q So just to complete the
context for me before
24 getting back to the pleading. After the agreement
25 in 1995 or 1996, if someone came to
ECMAS with an
26 issue that dealt specifically with
access,
27 maintenance, custody, or some other
divorce-related
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00116
1 issue, would they be sent to MERGE?
2
A No, no, not really. That was their territory.
3
Q That was ECMAS's territory?
4
A That's right.
5
Q And who would be sent to
MERGE, only those that had
6 been falsely accused of sexually
abusing children?
7
A Or had some other kind of
family abuse problem or
8 issue.
9
Q And was there anything
reflected in the minutes of
10 meetings or the bylaws that would
evidence this
11 agreement?
12
A I don't believe so. These organizations, as I
13 mentioned before, are quite
informal. They don't
14 have a lot of talent, a lot of ability
to do things
15 formally, and so on, and so I'm quite
sure that
16 nothing like that was written on that.
17
Q I'm interested in the process,
and again I'll
18 specifically ask you to think of the
time period
19 following the agreement. If a parent came to ECMAS
20 and had issues involving family
violence, who would
21 determine that and direct them to go to
MERGE
22 instead of stay at ECMAS?
23
A It would generally be either
Caroline Van Ee or
24 Brian St. Germain, or as more often
than not,
25 because by that stage I was going to
nearly all the
26 ECMAS meetings, I would pick up on them
and just
27 talk to them myself.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00117
1
Q Did the agreement specifically
contemplate that
2 people with family violence issues
would not be
3 welcome at ECMAS?
4
A Certainly not, because most of
the people coming in
5 that situation had both kinds of
issues.
6
Q And so --
7
A Divorce, custody, and so on.
8
Q -- these weren't discrete
problems?
9
A That's why we had to make an
agreement is that they
10 were -- they were very often
together. I've used
11 the phrase -- well, these days I'm
calling it
12 Divorce 21st Century Style. You want to grab the
13 kids and the house and get all sorts of
advantages
14 for the divorce and separation, and you
make
15 accusations of -- child sex abuse was
the big one
16 back around the turn of the 1990s, and
-- but by
17 the middle of the 1990s, spouse abuse
was the big
18 issue and continues to be so today.
19 A further thought I've just had, I
recall
20 specifically that Brian St. Germain had
a special
21 interest in family violence issues, and
he would
22 sometimes come to MERGE meetings where
we were
23 dealing with that problem.
24
Q I see. And so was it the case that people that
25 came to ECMAS for help that had a
family violence
26 allegation component would be referred
to MERGE and
27 might attend meetings in both
organizations?
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00118
1
A Attending meetings at both was
quite common.
2
Q Right.
3
A Is quite common.
4
Q Now, getting back to 15(b),
would you put this
5 statement in the irrelevant category,
or would you
6 say that it is incomplete and
misleading, or both?
7
A It certainly seems
relevant. Incomplete and
8 potentially misleading is how I would
prefer to put
9 it.
10
Q All right. And what makes this incomplete? Is it
11 the information that you've just given
to me about
12 the relationship between ECMAS and
MERGE?
13
A That's what I had in mind,
yes.
14
Q Yes. Anything else that makes this incomplete?
15
A Not that I can see at the
moment.
16
Q All right. When you respond in that fashion, not
17 that you can see at the moment, I'm
compelled to
18 say I would like an undertaking that
would oblige
19 you to advise me through your lawyer if
something
20 occurs to you at a later date between
now and
21 trial.
Will you give me that undertaking?
22
A Surely. I understand your constraints, and I hope
23 you understand, as a philosopher
trained in
24 caution, I sometimes may be overly
cautious.
25
Q Well, no, I'm sure your
counsel has encouraged you
26 to be cautious, and that's appropriate
in this
27 setting.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00119
1 UNDERTAKING NO.
12:
2 ADVISE OF ANY OTHER REASONS DR.
CHRISTENSEN
3 BELIEVES PARAGRAPH 15(B) IN THE
STATEMENT OF
4 DEFENSE IS INCOMPLETE AND POTENTIALLY
MISLEADING.
5
Q MR. KOZAK: Now, I'd like you to turn to
6 15(c):
7 "Christensen has been
involved with
8 the Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS."
9 I'm sure that you will confirm that
that is true.
10
A Yes.
11
Q Is it relevant to the words
complained of?
12
A It surely is relevant.
13
Q Is it incomplete and
misleading in some fashion?
14
A Not misleading. It's not -- it doesn't say very
15 much, but not incomplete in any
material sense, I
16 wouldn't say.
17
Q All right. The next statement:
18 "Christensen has attended
support
19 group meetings of
the Edmonton
20 chapter of ECMAS."
21 That is true, I assume.
22
A It is true.
23
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
24
A It is not.
25
Q Is it incomplete or
misleading?
26
A No. Again, it says very little, but it's not
27 incomplete in any material way.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00120
1
Q 15(e) reads:
2 "On March 25th, 2001, the
Edmonton
3 chapter of ECMAS considered a
motion
4 to suspend Christensen from the
5 group for three months to
6 investigate whether Christensen's
7 views conflicted with the guiding
8 principles and policies of
ECMAS."
9 Is that true?
10
A It is true.
11
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
12
A No, it is definitely relevant.
13
Q And is it incomplete and
misleading?
14
A Well, it's not misleading. It's, again, incomplete
15 in the sense of not telling all of the
-- all of
16 the facts that are important but not in
a way that
17 I would say would make it misleading.
18
Q All right. 15(f) reads:
19 "Christensen has written and
20 published a book titled
Pornography,
21 The Other Side."
22 That is true, is it not?
23
A It is true.
24
Q And is it irrelevant to the
words complained of?
25
A Certainly not. It is relevant.
26
Q Is it incomplete and
misleading, that statement?
27
A It is not.
A.C.E.
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1
Q 15(g):
2 "In his book, Pornography,
The Other
3 Side, Christensen included a
section
4 titled 'Sex and Young
People.' A
5 copy of this section is attached
as
6 Schedule A to this Statement of
7 Defense, and the Defendants will
8 rely on this section in its
9 entirety."
10 Is that statement true?
11
A Yes.
12
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
13
A It is not.
14
Q Is it incomplete and
misleading?
15 A
It is not.
16
Q 15(h):
17 "Louise Malenfant is a
community
18 activist who has been involved
with
19 the Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS."
20 Is that true?
21 A It is true.
22
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
23
A It is not.
24
Q Is it incomplete and
misleading?
25
A Not misleading, and incomplete
only in the sense of
26 saying so very little that is
important; but, no,
27 not misleading.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00122
1
Q All right. 15(i):
2 "Louise Malenfant accepted an
3 invitation from Christensen to
move
4 from Winnipeg to Edmonton to work
5 with divorced parents."
6 Is that true?
7
A It's ambiguous in a way that's
potentially
8 misleading.
9
Q Can you explain how?
10
A Yes. Specifically, what I invited her to come to
11 Edmonton to do was to research and
write up the
12 stories of individuals who had problems
dealing
13 with family abuse, and the phrase
"work with" is
14 somewhat problematic because it might
suggest
15 things that I did not bring her here to
do and
16 which might be relevant to issues that
would arise.
17 Specifically, she was to research their
stories,
18 get their documents, talk to them, and
then write
19
that information up for use
in potentially helping
20 them farther down the road with abuse
-- it's
21 usually accusations of some kind or
other, but it
22 wasn't specifically to do with divorced
parents,
23 although that's usually the case, but
certainly it
24 wasn't to do with divorce per se. It had to do
25 with the accusations.
26
Q So issues that you would say
following the
27
agreement in 1995 or 1996
would have more to do
A.C.E.
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1 with people who were going to MERGE as
opposed to
2 ECMAS?
3
A Exactly right, but, again,
keeping in mind that
4 most of them were going to both.
5
Q Yes. And in fairness, Dr. Christensen, you would
6 agree that the phrase "work with
divorced parents"
7 is general enough to include the fact
that she
8 would be interacting with them and
capturing their
9 story and committing it to writing?
10
A It is. It is general enough, yes.
11
Q And your answer to my
question, that is, it's
12 somewhat misleading I gather in your
mind because
13 your invitation to her was for a more
specific
14 purpose than what's suggested in 15(i)?
15
A Not just more specific, but
more specifically the
16 work that MERGE was doing as opposed to
the work
17 that ECMAS was doing, even again
granting that they
18 overlap, and, as we've said.
19
Q Now, is there some document,
whether it's an
20 agreement, or a contract, or an
exchange of emails,
21 that would illustrate the more limited
nature of
22 your invitation to Louise Malenfant?
23
A Unfortunately, there is no
such record. It was all
24 done by telephone, or virtually all
done by
25 telephone, and such emails as there
were, I did not
26 keep. Had I known what would eventually happen, I
27 certainly would have kept all those
records, but
A.C.E.
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1 the records that I have of my dealings
with
2 Ms. Malenfant that I've kept on email
don't begin
3 until about the time that she actually
got to
4 Edmonton.
5
Q All right. Now --
6
A If I can follow up?
7
Q Sure.
8
A Probably a lot of those
records would have
9 references that would help answer the
question, but
10 the actual original agreement, we -- I
guess
11 because we were -- at that time we saw
each other
12 as workers in a common cause, we
trusted each other
13 in ways that ceased later on, but we
certainly did
14 not bother with anything like a written
contract at
15 that -- at that earlier point.
16
Q I was just about to ask you
about that. So there
17 was no written contract. This topic may have been
18 covered in emails that are no longer
available to
19 you?
20
A That's correct.
21
Q Are you absolutely certain
that the invitation, as
22 it's described in 15(i), was
specifically confined,
23 to you, to working with people who
would go to
24 MERGE on family violence issues?
25
A About as certain as I can
be. It's not as if I
26 thought about it in terms of sharp
dividing lines
27 at that point.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00125
1
Q Yes.
2
A And don't usually think in
terms of sharp dividing
3
lines, but certainly the idea
was to deal with
4 people who specifically had problems
with police
5 and with Child Welfare because of the
kinds of
6 accusations, sometimes true even, of
dealing with
7 these issues. It's not as if I would have said:
8 Oh, of course, if any kind of other
issues arise,
9 we won't touch that at all. That didn't come up.
10 But certainly that was my reason for
doing it.
11
Q You would agree that parents
who have issues with
12 police authorities and Child Welfare
authorities
13 have a broad range of problems that
aren't
14 necessarily confined to family
violence?
15
A That I've said already. Many of them are in
16 divorce situations, separation. The two are very
17 much linked.
18
Q Would you agree that it
wouldn't have been
19 unreasonable for Louise Malenfant to
think that
20 your invitation was a more general one
than the one
21 that you intended to create?
22
A It would have been unlikely
for her to think that,
23 because her own work in Winnipeg was
always
24 specifically with the falsely
accused. She dealt
25 very specifically with people falsely
accused or
26 claiming to be falsely accused of child
sex abuse,
27 so it would have been odd for her to
think in more
A.C.E.
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1 general terms, I would think.
2
Q Right. 15(j) reads:
3 "Christensen paid Louise
Malenfant a
4 salary."
5 Is that true?
6
A Yes. Well, it's true enough, I guess. It was -- I
7
paid her a -- it was not an
hourly salary or
8 anything like that. It was a set amount per month,
9 so it was more on a contract
basis. For example,
10 if people think of salary normally,
they would
11 think of having benefits and this sort
of thing.
12 Louise simply wanted it on a contract
basis, so
13 there would be no EI, no benefits. I would just
14 give her $2,000 per month.
15
Q You weren't her employer, but
you paid her on a
16 monthly basis?
17
A That's correct.
18
Q Was it, in fact, $2,000 per
month?
19
A That's what it was.
20
Q Was that agreement to pay her
$2,000 a month ever
21 reduced to writing?
22
A Well, I certainly have records
of the payments.
23
Q Yes.
24
A But as I say, initially we
were quite informal, and
25 there was no actual contract to that
effect.
26
Q What I'm getting at is, I was
wondering whether
27 something in writing exists to outline
the
A.C.E.
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1 boundaries of her duties and
responsibilities and
2 her expected role that might relate
back to the
3 scope of your invitation to her?
4
A It's possible that emails from
the period would
5 allude to these things in ways that
would help, but
6 nothing really besides, I'm sure, would
exist on
7 the matter.
8
Q Those emails that you're
referring to, are those
9 emails that are no longer available to
you or ones
10 that you have provided through your
legal counsel?
11
A I have not provided them. They are available to
12
me.
13
Q Yes.
14
A When I began having conflicts
with Louise, I began
15 saving all the emails, and -- but I
have not
16 provided them in this case feeling that
they're not
17 relevant to the case, in my mind
relevance being to
18 what Donna knew and when she knew it,
and so, yes,
19 they're available; but, no, I have not
provided
20 them.
21
Q Right. I'm going to ask you, subject to anything
22 that your legal counsel says once he's
able to
23 review those emails, I'm going to ask
you to
24 undertake to provide those emails
through your
25 lawyer.
26 MR. BROWN: Sure.
27
MR. KOZAK: All
right. Thank you.
A.C.E.
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Phone: (780) 497-4223
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1
A Could that be made subject to
relevance?
2
MR. BROWN: I'll
review them. I'll review
3 them for relevance, and, you know, I
mean, if
4 there's nothing in there relating to
what you've
5 been just asking about, then, you know,
there's no
6 point.
7
A I want to be cooperative. The mountains of
8 documents in this case, I am worried
about drowning
9 in irrelevant material.
10
Q MR. KOZAK: I understand your concern,
11 because I am sure you feel that this
case has
12 dragged on far too long as it is, and
the concern
13 obviously relates to getting into an
examination of
14 things that you think are not directly
related to
15 the things complained of. However, in my view,
16 because of the nature of the
allegations that have
17 been made, there's actually a fairly
wide ambit of
18 relevance, and that's something that
your lawyer
19 will review, but in order to do that,
I'm going to
20 ask you to undertake to provide any
email or other
21 correspondence between you and Louise
Malenfant so
22 that he can review it and advise us of
his position
23 on the relevance to the issues in the
lawsuit.
24
A I will do that.
25
Q Thank you.
26 UNDERTAKING NO.
13:
27 PROVIDE COPIES OF EMAILS THAT WOULD
OUTLINE THE
A.C.E.
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1 BOUNDARIES OF MS. MALENFANT'S DUTIES
AND
2 RESPONSIBILITIES AND HER EXPECTED ROLE
THAT MIGHT
3 RELATE BACK TO THE SCOPE OF DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S
4 INVITATION TO HER.
5 Q
MR. KOZAK: And, can you
tell me the
6 period of time for which you paid
Louise Malenfant
7 this $2,000 per month?
8
A It was the three months of
September, October and
9
November of the year 2000. There was some talk of
10 a fourth month, but that didn't
materialize because
11 of the conflicts between us.
12
Q So your initial agreement
didn't have a term?
13
A It had a three-month, possibly
four-month term.
14
Q I see.
15
A And it may be helpful to add
that because
16 originally this looked like a very
promising
17 arrangement, my agreement was to, if things
worked
18 out well, to attempt to get funding so
I could
19 continue to pay her on beyond that
period,
20 indefinitely. This was all in the realm of
21 possibility as originally discussed
with
22 Ms. Malenfant.
23
Q Now, the $2,000 that you did
pay over the course of
24 each of three months, was that money
that you
25 personally paid her?
26
A That's correct.
27 Q
Were you reimbursed by anyone for that money that
A.C.E.
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1 you paid to her?
2
A No.
3
Q And the funding that you hoped
to arrange, who
4 would that funding have come from?
5
A Some government agency
perhaps, or some foundation
6 perhaps. It was all speculative, but there are --
7 there are sources of that kind that I
wanted to
8 look into, but that did not
materialize.
9
Q When you say "that did
not materialize," did you
10 take any steps to look into the possibility
and it
11 didn't come to fruition, or is it the
case that you
12 didn't take any steps?
13
A I took the steps of looking at
some of the
14 available sources of such funding, but
at that
15 point the conflict between me and Ms.
Malenfant was
16 such that I gave up on it.
17
Q 15(k) reads:
18 "[Tim] Adams was disbarred by
the
19 Law Society Alberta and pled
guilty
20 to the indictable criminal offense
21 of sexual exploitation of a
minor."
22 Is that true?
23
A As I understand it, that's
true.
24
Q And is any part of that
irrelevant to the words
25 complained of?
26
A No.
27
Q And is any part of that
incomplete and misleading?
A.C.E.
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1
A No.
2
Q 15(l) reads:
3 "[Tim] Adams has been involved
with
4 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS and
5 attended support group meetings of
6 the Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS."
7 Is that true?
8
A It's true.
9
Q Is any part of that irrelevant
to the words
10 complained of?
11
A It is not.
12
Q And is any part of that
statement incomplete and
13 misleading?
14
A It is not.
15
Q 15(m) reads:
16 "On March 12th, 2001, the
Edmonton
17 chapter of ECMAS elected [Tim]
Adams
18 as vice president."
19 Is that true?
20
A That is true.
21
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
22
A It is not.
23
Q Is any part of that incomplete
and misleading?
24
A It is not. Of course, there's a great story to be
25 told there that is relevant, but this
statement is
26 not problematic.
27
Q Thank you. 15(n) reads:
A.C.E.
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1 "On March 25th, 2001, the
Edmonton
2 chapter of ECMAS voted to accept
the
3 resignation of [Tim] Adams from the
4 position of vice president."
5 Is that true?
6
A It is true.
7
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
8
A It is not.
9
Q Is any part of it incomplete
and misleading?
10
A It is not.
11
Q 15(o) reads:
12 "On March 25th, 2001, the
Edmonton
13 chapter of ECMAS voted down a
motion
14 to eject [Tim] Adams from the
group."
15 Is that true?
16
A It is true.
17
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
18
A It is not.
19
Q Is any part of it incomplete
and misleading?
20
A It is not.
21
Q 15(p), the following words
appear:
22 "In late March 2001, the
Board of
23 Directors of the Calgary chapter
of
24 ECMAS resigned and disassociated
25 itself from the ECMAS trade
name."
26 Is that true?
27
A It is true, as I understand
it.
A.C.E.
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Phone: (780) 497-4223
00133
1
Q Is that statement irrelevant
to the words
2 complained of?
3
A It is not.
4
Q And is any part of that
incomplete and misleading?
5
A It is not. Again, there's much more story here to
6 this, but, in itself, it's not a
problematic
7 statement.
8
Q 15(q) reads:
9 "The Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS
10 support group meetings begin with
a
11 disclaimer that the group is not
12 offering legal advice."
13 Is that true?
14
A It is problematic, and I could
explain what I mean
15 by that.
16
Q All right. Please do.
17
A The phrase "legal
advice" is something of a term of
18 art.
In the words that I would use, what the group
19 is told is that they're not being given
any
20 professional advice.
21
Q Okay.
22
A But, now, if the phrase -- if
you use the phrase
23 "legal advice" as I believe
it sometimes is used,
24 it's something that only lawyer can
give, and the
25 very point of this disclaimer given to
the
26 attendees is that we're not pretending
to give that
27 kind of information or of anything
professional.
A.C.E. Reporting
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1 It is -- it is very important here
though
2 that the -- what the group did
primarily was to
3 give "legal advice" in the
sense of lay people gave
4 information in the same sense, if I
may, that
5 neighbors sometimes give each other
medical advice:
6 Oh, I took -- you know, why don't you
take this
7 medicine, it helped me. But, if you understand,
8 the neighbors are not pretending to be
medical
9 doctors, they're just doing it as lay
people, so in
10 a sense, an important sense, it is
medical advice,
11 but in the sense of being official or
pretending to
12 be professional, it is not, and I think
this
13 important -- this distinction is
certainly material
14 to the issues at stake here. I hope that helps.
15
Q Yes, I understand. A well-intentioned stranger
16 that tells you not to cross the street
in the
17 middle of the block may or may not be
giving you
18 legal advice regardless of whether
they're a
19 lawyer.
Is that your point?
20
A Pretty well; but, again, I do
understand that the
21 phrase "legal advice" has a
quite special
22
resonance, if not a very
special definition.
23
Q But, Dr. Christensen, you
would agree that meetings
24 of the Edmonton chapter of the ECMAS
support group
25 commenced with some statement to make
it clear that
26 people weren't being offered legal
advice in the
27 sense that the term of art refers to,
that it
A.C.E.
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1 wasn't professional legal advice, but
it was advice
2 relating to legal matters from a
nonprofessional
3 source?
4
A Lay advice, exactly. The term "professional" is
5 used repeatedly in that
disclaimer, and I think
6 that's the key word here. Lay legal advice is a
7 good way I could put it, although we've
tried to
8 stress the fact that this is just from
our lay
9 experience.
10
Q No, I think I understand the
point; but subject to
11 that qualification, do you agree that
15(q) is
12 true?
13
A Subject to that qualification,
yes, 15(q) is true.
14
Q Is that statement relevant to
the words complained
15 of?
16
A I believe it is very relevant.
17
Q Other than the qualification
that you have just
18 given us, is that statement incomplete
and
19 misleading?
20
A The qualification I've given,
I think, is the only
21 -- the only -- might make it
misleading.
22
Q All right. If you could turn the page, 15(r)
23 reads:
24 "[Tim] Adams has handed out
business
25 cards at support group meetings of
26 the Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS. The
27 business cards of [Tim] Adams
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1 included the designation
LL.B."
2 Is that true?
3
A It is not known to me to be
true because, in my
4 memory, I never got one of his cards,
and so I
5 wouldn't know whether the designation
LL.B. was on
6 there, but I certainly understand this
statement to
7 be true.
8 There is a little bit of a
problem, and I
9 don't mean to be picking nits here, but
it says he
10 handed out his business cards at
support group
11 meetings. To my -- I don't believe I ever saw him
12 hand out a business card at the
meeting, though he
13 probably did after the meetings were
over, and I
14 certainly saw other people hand out his
card at the
15 meetings, so this is a bit nitpicking,
but the way
16 this could be misleading is in giving
the
17 impression that he was doing this
constantly, that
18 it was an important part of the meeting
as opposed
19 to something that occasionally happened
after the
20 meeting.
21
Q Yes.
22
A If you can see the distinction
I'm making, then
23 you'll understand why I'm a bit
hesitant to endorse
24 this just as it stands.
25
Q Yes. So if I can summarize then. You have no
26 personal knowledge of the truth of the
statement
27 made in 15(r), although you have no
reason to
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1 believe that it's false; is that fair?
2
A Well, again, as it stands,
it's . . .
3
Q Perhaps I'll just complete my
summary. You have no
4 reason to believe that it's false, but
it may be
5 misleading if it conveys the impression
that
6 [Tim] Adams had, as his primarily
function, handing
7 out business cards at meetings?
8
A Well, that's closer. I was there at all the
9 meetings. I do not remember at any time seeing him
10 hand his card out during the
meeting. In fact, I
11 don't even remember him -- seeing his
-- giving his
12 card out after a meeting was over, but
then he was
13 talking to people individually, and it
certainly
14 would have happened, I would think.
15
Q All right.
16
A Does that help?
17
Q Did you ever have occasion to
see one of
18 [Tim] Adams' business cards?
19
A I don't remember seeing --
looking at it close.
20 Not until this whole affair exploded
did I pay much
21 attention to the idea of a business
card.
22
Q So you can't personally say
whether or not his
23 business cards at that time included a
designation
24 LL.B.?
25
A I cannot personally say that.
26
Q Okay. Now, with respect to this statement, you've
27 summarized one aspect of it that you
think might be
A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.
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1 misleading. Is there something else that you would
2 say is either incomplete, or
misleading, or both?
3
A I think I've covered it. I could possibly repeat,
4 just to be sure, but -- and, if I may,
I'll do
5 that.
I had personal knowledge of what was
6 happening in those meetings because I
was there at
7 every one, and I have no memory of ever
seeing him
8 pass out his business card, although on
a few
9 occasions others would pass out his
business card,
10 and so I think it is a -- though I'm
sure that he
11 would have given his card to people, I
believe it
12 would have been after the meetings and
not terribly
13 often.
I think that covers my concerns however we
14 may wind up summarizing it.
15
Q Well, I accept the fact that
you're trying to be as
16 complete as possible in your answer,
but I want to
17 clarify one thing. You attended each and every
18 meeting, but you couldn't say with
certainty that
19 [Tim] Adams did not hand out his
business card at
20 the meeting?
21
A I certainly cannot say
that. I would expect the
22 opposite to be true.
23 Q
And I take it from our discussion about 15(r) that
24 you would agree that 15(r) is relevant
to the words
25 complained of?
26
A Certainly relevant.
27
Q 15(s) reads:
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1 "[Tim] Adams has obtained
clients for
2 his paralegal business,
'affordable
3 paralegal services,' who are
persons
4 involved with ECMAS."
5 Is that true?
6
A It is true.
7
Q Is it relevant to the words
complained of?
8
A It is relevant.
9
Q Is some part of that
misleading and incomplete?
10
A It is not.
11
Q This is obviously something
that you do have
12 personal knowledge of, given the
unequivocal
13 response to my questions. Who were the clients
14 that you can recall that [Tim] Adams
obtained for
15 his paralegal business who were
involved with
16 ECMAS?
17
A Are you asking for their
names?
18
Q Yes.
19
A I, at this date, couldn't give
you very many.
20
MR. BROWN: Can we do
that by way of
21 undertaking, give our best efforts to
--
22
MR. KOZAK: Yes. Yes. That's
23 satisfactory.
24
A That would be better.
25
MR. BROWN: It would
more likely give you
26 an answer that you, you know, could use
than if he
27 tries to remember right now.
A.C.E.
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1
MR. KOZAK: That
would be satisfactory.
2
Q MR. KOZAK: So, Dr. Christensen, I'll ask
3 you to undertake to provide us with a
list of the
4 clients that [Tim] Adams obtained for
his paralegal
5 business who were persons involved with
ECMAS, and
6
supply us with that information
through your legal
7 counsel. Will you give me that undertaking?
8
A May I clarify that?
9
Q Yes.
10
A Are you expecting me to confer
with [Tim] Adams to
11 get this information or simply to go
from my own
12 memory?
13
Q I would like you to do
both. I would like you to
14 rely on whatever resources are
available to you,
15 that is, documents that you have either
produced or
16 are going to produce to your legal
counsel, and, if
17 necessary, calling [Tim] Adams to ask
him.
18
MR. BROWN: [Tim] may
have objections based
19
on confidentiality, but, you
know, if he's prepared
20 to provide them, we'll ask.
21
MR. KOZAK: Yes.
22
A If I may, there may be further
complications
23 because it's germane to the case
whether he got
24 these clients from ECMAS. This simply says
25 "involved with ECMAS." I do recall very clearly
26 that quite a few of the people who
originally just
27 came to him were referred by him to
ECMAS for the
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00141
1 first time, so he did not get those
clients by
2
his -- from his involvement
with ECMAS, but rather
3 it was the reverse.
4
Q MR. KOZAK: Yes.
5
A There's a germane distinction,
I think, and it may
6 impact on what you're asking here.
7
Q I would have to agree with
that distinction. I
8 think that what I'm interested in are
clients that
9 [Tim] Adams obtained because of their
involvement
10 with ECMAS, not the other way around.
11
A That helps, and that I
understand. I will
12 undertake to do that.
13
Q You'll produce those to your
lawyer, and your
14 lawyer can then decide whether or not
there is some
15 issue of confidentiality, and advise us
of the
16 position with respect to that.
17 Now, I'm not suggesting that the
issue of
18 confidentiality solely relates to the
issue of
19
solicitor/client privilege,
but I will advise you
20 that I think at the time in question,
Mr. Adams was
21 not a barrister and solicitor, and,
therefore,
22 solicitor/client privilege wouldn't
apply. I'll
23 leave it to you to determine whether or
not there's
24 some other confidentiality issue, and,
if so, you
25 can tell me what it is.
26
MR. BROWN: Sure.
27
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00142
1 UNDERTAKING NO.
14:
2 PROVIDE TO PLAINTIFF'S COUNSEL THE
NAMES OF
3 CLIENTS THAT [TIM] ADAMS OBTAINED
BECAUSE OF THEIR
4 INVOLVEMENT WITH ECMAS. ADVISE WHETHER THERE IS
5 AN ISSUE OF CONFIDENTIALITY; IF SO,
PROVIDE THE
6 PLAINTIFF'S POSITION WITH RESPECT TO THAT
ISSUE.
7
Q MR. KOZAK: 15(t) reads:
8 "Christensen has recommended
to some
9 members of ECMAS on a number of
10 occasions that they retain
11 [Tim] Adams to provide counsel with
12 regard to family law matters in
13 place of their existing legal
14 counsel."
15 Now, that is a statement that in your
Reply you
16
indicated was not
accurate. What is your position,
17 Dr. Christensen?
18
A All right. Let's see if I can make it succinct and
19 yet clear. I think that the important distinction
20 here is that I did not recommend that
they retain
21 him.
I recommended that they go to him and talk to
22 him about that as an option. I think that is an
23 important distinction.
24 Secondly, because of what I take
are obvious
25 issues here, in place of their existing
legal
26 counsel, I want it to be very clear
that I never
27 recommended to anybody to fire their
existing
A.C.E. Reporting Services
Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00143
1 counsel. This is a -- a very large issue has been
2 made of this, and I take strong
exception to it, so
3 there was no recommendation that they
leave their
4 existing counsel. Generally, the people I sent to
5 [Tim] did not have counsel. There certainly may
6 have been some who did. My memory -- I don't want
7 to claim perfect memory in that regard,
but,
8 generally speaking, if people had
existing counsel,
9 that settled the answer for me. I would not have
10 -- I believe I would not have sent
anyone to him
11 suggesting that they replace their
counsel, unless
12 they had indicated to me that they
already intended
13 to leave their current counsel. I think this is a
14 very important distinction.
15
Q Well, I just want to explore
that because you've
16 been very candid in saying: I believe that I did
17 not send anybody to [Tim] Adams. That, of course,
18 leaves open the possibility that it did
occur, and
19 you can't presently recollect it.
20
A That's right.
21
Q But it's not uncommon, I think
you would agree, for
22 people to complain about their lawyers
or the legal
23 system.
Is that accurate?
24
A It's especially common at our
support group
25 meetings, yes.
26
Q Right. And you drew a distinction between what is
27 said in 15(t), that is, that you
recommended to
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00144
1 some members of ECMAS on a number of
occasions that
2 they retain [Tim] Adams. The distinction you made
3 was you would have described it as
suggesting or
4 recommending that they talk to him
about options.
5 Is that fair?
6 A
Yes. Among the options being
retaining him, yes.
7
Q Yes, and would it be fair to
say that in instances
8 where people were complaining about
their lawyers
9 within the context of an ECMAS meeting,
you would
10 offer that as an option to them as
well, that is:
11 Why don't you talk to [Tim] Adams?
12
A I guess I'd have to say it
would have to be more
13 than just complaining.
14 Q
Yes.
15
A Expressing a definite desire
to leave their current
16 counsel I think would be -- because
people
17 obviously complain about all sorts of
little things
18 which are quite curable.
19
Q Yes.
20
A So the word
"complaining" might be misleading; but
21 if a person said: I really feel I have to replace
22 my counsel, then certainly an option
that I would
23
on some occasions have
presented was the option of
24 getting [Tim] Adams or some other
paralegal to help
25 them represent themselves. I think it may be
26 helpful in this context to say that we
talk a lot
27 about self-representation in the group.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00145
1
Q Yes.
2
A Because so many of our people
feel that they can't
3 afford it to go on these constant
battles, and so I
4 have often mentioned quite specifically
the three
5 options: You can represent yourself, and the court
6 makes this easier for people these days
by
7 providing information packages that
tell you how to
8 fill out the forms and so on. You can represent
9 yourself. You can go the usual route and have
10 legal counsel, or you can take this
middle ground,
11 which a lot of people would need
because they don't
12 really have the full abilities just to
represent
13 themselves, middle ground being to hire
a lawyer or
14 a paralegal to give you the information
to help you
15 to represent yourself, to help you fill
out those
16 perplexing legal forms, and so on, and
so on.
17 So I, for a long time, have been
very explicit
18 in talking to people about these three
options, and
19 so that if they feel that they cannot
afford a
20 lawyer anymore, and they're really
strongly
21 thinking about doing something else,
then I would
22 present the option of possibly hiring
[Tim] Adams or
23 someone else to help them to represent
themselves.
24 I hope that detail helps.
25
Q It does. Those are the three options that you
26 would have spoken to ECMAS members
about at the
27 relevant time frame relating to the
article
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00146
1 complained of; is that correct?
2
A Yes, ECMAS
"visitors," I think, is better than
3 "members."
4
Q That third option, which is
not self-representation
5 and not retaining on a formal basis a
lawyer to
6 represent you in court, you said [Tim]
Adams would
7 fall into the third option category?
8
A Right.
9
Q And your answer included
having a paralegal or a
10 lawyer "help you with those
perplexing forms." Was
11 there ever a person other than [Tim]
Adams whose
12 name you gave to people in this third
option?
13
A If it will come to me, there's
one lawyer I knew
14 would do things in this way. I imagine many
15 lawyers will not just help people
represent
16 themselves, but there is one, in particular,
that I
17 knew had done so, if I can think of her
name. Her
18 name may come to me later. I could find out, if
19 it's really important. I remember specifically
20 suggesting to people that they could
talk to her
21 about getting help to represent
themselves, because
22 this lawyer had done the same thing at
one point
23 for Abdulahi Mahamad, who is one of our
ECMAS and
24
MERGE members.
25
Q All right.
26
A I probably would not have
recommended anyone else
27 because I'm not aware of -- I don't
know much about
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00147
1 other paralegals, but I certainly would
have
2 suggested that people ask lawyers,
maybe the lawyer
3 they presently have, about this third
option which
4 could save them a lot of money.
5
Q I will ask you to undertake to
provide me with the
6 name of the lawyer whose name escapes
you right
7 now.
Will you give me that undertaking?
8
A I will.
9 UNDERTAKING NO.
15:
10 PROVIDE THE NAME OF THE FEMALE LAWYER
THAT
11 DR. CHRISTENSEN RECOMMENDED TO VISITORS
TO ECMAS.
12 (ANSWERED ON PAGE 148)
13
Q MR. KOZAK: I want to just follow up on a
14 few things that you said though, and
you said that
15 you have a specific recollection of
providing her
16 name.
Do you know who you provided it to.
17
A No, at this date. I'm very certain that I did
18 provide her name on a couple of
occasions just
19 because I knew that she would do this
kind of
20 service.
21 Q
Right. Now, we've spent some time
talking about
22 the position of words, and I just want
to get a
23 sense of how many is a couple? Is that two?
24
A That's two, but it reflects
the uncertainty in my
25 memory.
I have a very strong memory of having
26 mentioned her in this connection, and
it seems to
27 me that it was more than once, but it
wouldn't have
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00148
1 been a great number of times.
2
Q That's helpful.
3
A It would be a best guess.
4
Q Now, did this female lawyer
ever attend meetings of
5 ECMAS?
6
A No.
7
Q All right. So she wouldn't have been --
8
A The name has come back to me.
9
Q Yes.
10
A Deborah Baradziej.
11
Q And do you know how her
surname is spelled?
12
A I've always gotten it wrong,
B-A-R-A-D-J-I-E-Z, I
13 believe, unless it's Z-I-E-J on the
end. You don't
14 know her name, I take it?
15 Q I
don't, but that's not surprising. I've
never
16 practiced matrimonial law.
17
A She did what I felt to be a
very good job of
18 organizing legal materials for Abdulahi
so he could
19 go into court and plead his own
case. I was very
20 impressed with it, and that's why I
suggested her
21 to other people. Though I can't remember to whom,
22 I certainly remember doing it and doing
it more
23 than once.
24
Q Would you agree that in terms
of this third option,
25 that's what I'll call it, for visitors
to ECMAS,
26 that you more frequently referred them
to
27 [Tim] Adams than to Ms., and I've
forgotten --
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00149
1
A Baradziej.
2
Q Baradziej.
3
A Yes, I definitely did that more frequently.
4
Q Why was that?
5
A I have -- and I should put
this on the record. I
6 have a lot of respect for [Tim]
Adams. Through many
7 meetings, I was impressed with the
sensible answers
8 that I heard him give to people when
they were
9 asking for information, not always
legal
10 information, just good, sound,
practical, every-day
11 advice.
And I had a lot of and do have a lot of
12 confidence in his abilities, and
because, in
13 particular, I feel that he is
especially aware of
14 the kinds of problems that people
facing divorce
15 and separation go through, I have been
very quick
16 to recommend him many times.
17
Q All right. So I'm going to try to pin you down
18 again.
I did it with the "couple" of referrals to
19 Ms. Baradziej.
20
A M-hm.
21
Q You've said "many
times" with [Tim] Adams. Can you
22 say, was it dozens?
23
A Dozens, yes. Keeping in mind that when I sent
24 people to [Tim] Adams, it was to explore
various
25 options.
26
Q Yes.
27
A And I could add, most of the
time I sent people to
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00150
1 [Tim] Adams it was simply to get some
free legal
2 information on some specific point that
I couldn't
3 answer.
4
Q All right. Now, was there a time frame when you
5 ceased referring people to Ms.
Baradziej and
6 started referring them to Mr.
Adams? Was there a
7 sequence?
8
A No, no, I can't remember
anything of that nature.
9 Chances are that when I mentioned her
name, I also
10 mentioned his and said: Try them both.
11
Q But that would have only
happened on those two
12 occasions, or three perhaps?
13
A Right.
14
Q Is that fair?
15
A That's fair to say.
16
Q I assume when you referred
people to Ms. Baradziej
17 that she was a barrister and solicitor
and a member
18 of the Law Society of Alberta, to the
best of your
19 knowledge?
20
A That's correct.
21
Q And when you referred people
to [Tim] Adams, he was
22 not?
23
A That's correct.
24
Q How careful were you in
bringing that distinction
25 to people that you referred visitors of
ECMAS to?
26
A In general, I believe I was
fairly careful to tell
27 them that [Tim] is a disbarred
lawyer. I had to
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00151
1 tell them, generally speaking, that he
couldn't
2 represent them because we don't want
people go on
3 thinking that.
4
Q Yes.
5
A There were many times when I
sent people to him
6 for -- just for information when I
didn't mention
7 that kind of thing.
8
Q Yes.
9
A But I'm certainly aware of the
distinction, aware
10 that he was not a barrister and
solicitor and
11 consequently he could only give this
limited kind
12 of service, and that's what I wanted
people to know
13 in sending them to him.
14
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
15
(ADJOURNMENT)
16
Q MR. KOZAK: I had been asking you
17 questions about paragraph 15(t) in the
Statement of
18 Defense and Counterclaim, and you had
provided me
19 with some clarification. I take it that 15(t), you
20 would agree, is relevant to the words
complained
21 of?
22
A Yes.
23
Q Now, in the article itself,
there is a quote, and
24 I'll just -- I'll just read it to
you. It reads:
25 "He has also suggested, at
least
26 eight times, that her nephew fire
27 his lawyer and hire the disbarred
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00152
1 Mr. Adams instead, and he said,
2 'Dump your lawyer, you don't need
a
3 lawyer. [Tim] Adams will help you.
4 Just go to [Tim] Adams. Well, you
5 know, I think you'd be really
6 impressed with [Tim] Adams.'"
7 Do you recall that quote, generally, in
the
8 article?
9
A I recall the quote from the
article, yes.
10
Q Yes. I take it, based on your earlier answer, that
11 you deny speaking those words or
conveying that
12 specific message?
13
A That specific message, yes, I
deny that.
14
Q And do you know who this
passage refers to?
15
A You mean which individuals?
16
Q Yes.
17
A Oh, yes, this is -- well,
let's see now, it's
18 either [the grandmother] or [the Aunt].
19
Q [first name], I'm sorry, what
was that last name?
20
A [last name of grandmother].
21
Q [last name of grandmother],
yes.
22
A [last name spelled out].
23
Q The other name you gave me was
[aunt's first name]?
24
A [aunt's last name].
25
Q Spelled?
26
A [last name spelled out].
27
Q All right. Now, those were both people who came to
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00153
1 ECMAS?
2
A Yes. They're sisters.
3
Q Oh, all right.
4
A I guess that would have been
-- sorry, could you
5 read the quote again? I'll recall which one it was
6
there.
7
Q
8 "He has also suggested, at
least
9 eight times, that her nephew
--"
10
A Nephew, okay. That will be [the aunt].
11
Q Okay. And so it's the word "nephew" that
allows
12 you to identify [the aunt] as the
speaker?
13
A That's right. The group is small enough that this
14 was a clear identifier.
15
Q Do you know [the aunt]'s
nephew?
16
A I believe I met him on two occasions. The article
17 made it sound as if I had spoken
directly to him,
18 but I never did speak to him about such
things. I
19 met him just briefly.
20
Q Do you recall his name?
21
A I do not, in fact.
22
Q But you do recall meeting him?
23
A Yes. As I recall, I met him at a public -- an
24 ECMAS public event on one occasion,
though that may
25 be incorrect; and I'm quite certain that
I met him
26 at the courthouse one day with his
mother and aunt,
27 again, just briefly.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00154
1
Q So you met him on two
occasions?
2
A That's -- I'm fairly sure of
that, but not totally.
3
Q On either of these occasions,
do you recall
4 speaking to the nephew?
5
A I believe I spoke to him on
both occasions.
6
Q What was the subject matter of
your conversation?
7
A Just general getting
acquainted sort of
8 information.
9
Q All right. Do you remember anything about that
10 discussion?
11
A Nothing.
12
Q So you don't know what his
circumstances were or
13 what his issues were?
14
A Well, I knew something about
his circumstances
15 because of having dealt so much with
his mother and
16 his aunt. They came to numerous MERGE meetings,
17 and occasionally to ECMAS meetings, and
they were
18
always working on his
behalf, but he did not come
19 with them. Whether it was for reasons of
20 scheduling or being distressed and not
wanting to
21 deal with it, that I couldn't say.
22
Q Do you recall ever having a
discussion with the
23 nephew about [Tim] Adams?
24
A I do not recall such a
discussion, and I'm quite
25 sure I never had one.
26
Q Right.
27
A With him.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00155
1
Q So, again, I realize this was
sometime ago, but you
2 say you're quite sure. That leaves open the
3 possibility that there was a discussion
with him
4 about [Tim] Adams?
5
A Certainly the abstract
possibility. In case it
6 helps to clarify, a lot of the memory
I'm relying
7 on now is what came to me at the time
of this whole
8 trouble.
9
Q Yes.
10
A And impressing certain things
in my memory then,
11 but, of course, there has been further
memory loss
12 and fading since that time.
13
Q Yes.
14
A I'm certainly aware of the
possibility of memory
15 failing in a person, and so I can't be
sure that I
16 didn't speak to him about [Tim] Adams,
but I do
17 recall our discussion was so brief that
it in all
18 likelihood was just a little getting
acquainted:
19 Oh, you're the son they've been talking
about; bla,
20 bla, bla.
21
Q And in your conversation with
the nephew, was it
22 your impression that he was well
familiar with who
23 you were?
24
A That he knew something about
how I was trying to
25 help his mother and aunt.
26
Q What was going on at the
courthouse?
27
A That I've tried to remember in
recalling this, and
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00156
1 I'm just not sure.
2
Q Do you recall if [the aunt]'s
nephew was
3 represented by a lawyer on the two
occasions when
4 you met him?
5
A That, as I remember it, he
was, but the memory is
6 so fuzzy that all I -- but mostly it's
probably
7 been influenced by my reading of these
transcripts
8 since then, and so -- but my memory,
such as it is,
9 is that he had a lawyer that they were
not
10 particularly -- they were not
particularly happy
11 with going on paying and paying, but
the memory is
12 very, very fuzzy.
13
Q Was [the aunt]'s nephew
embroiled in some issue
14 that related to family violence or
allegations of
15 family violence?
16
A Yes. As I recall in this case, I don't recall
17 whether -- specifically, whether
accusations had
18 been made against him, and I have very
little
19 specific memory, other than that they
were
20 constantly dealing with court and with
Child
21 Welfare, trying to get the courts or
Child Welfare
22 to recognize that the mother of his
child was a
23 very disreputable person harmful to the
child.
24 That's the main thing I recall about
their case.
25
Beyond that, I'm afraid my
memory is too faded at
26 this point.
27
Q I take it that you have no way
of finding out, on
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00157
1 the two occasions when you met the
nephew, whether
2 he was represented by legal counsel,
and, if so,
3 who it was?
4
A Other than by asking the
mother or the aunt.
5
Q All right.
6
A No, I'm sure there's no way
for me to -- and I'm
7 reasonably sure I never knew.
8
Q Now, switching from
conversations that you had with
9 the nephew to conversations that you
had with
10 [the aunt], is that the sister of the
other
11 person you mentioned, [the
grandmother]?
12
A Yes, [the grandmother] was his
mother.
13
Q Yes. [the aunt] was the aunt?
14
A The aunt.
15
Q Now, let's talk about
conversations that you had
16 with [the aunt] and this passage again.
17 "He has also suggested, at
least
18 eight times, that her nephew fire
19 his lawyer and hire the disbarred
20 Mr. Adams instead."
21 Do you remember having conversations
with
22 [the aunt] about that?
23
A I had conversations with both
of them about talking
24 to [Tim] Adams.
25
Q That's [the aunt] and [the
grandmother]?
26
A Right.
27
Q And do you have any reason to
believe that her
A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00158
1 assertion that it was at least eight
times is
2 inaccurate?
3
A I certainly do.
4
Q And why is that?
5
A Well, here again, you
understand that one doesn't
6 have specific memories of all
conversations. What
7 I do remember is that for a long time
they would --
8 they would complain to me about the
burden of these
9 ongoing court battles, and when I first
became
10 aware that [Tim] Adams could help them
and possibly
11 reduce that burden, I believe I phoned
him [them] up to
12 tell him [them] about it. Chances -- it's possible I
13 phoned each of them about it.
14
Q Yes.
15
A Again, I have no specific
memories here, but
16 it's -- but just sort of a very, very
faint memory
17 here.
And I have quite a specific memory at a
18 specific meeting at a later time of
reminding them
19 and asking them whether they had
contacted him,
20 thinking -- being pretty sure that they
had not
21 because he hadn't said anything to me
about it.
22 And beyond that, I can well imagine
that I might
23 have mentioned it once, possibly even
twice more,
24 but I cannot -- both in terms of the
way I
25 generally do things and such memories
as I -- such
26 vague memories that I do have, I cannot
imagine
27 having mentioned it more than four
times. Three or
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00159
1 four is what I would say.
2
Q Now, I don't want to split
hairs, but when I was
3 listening to your best efforts to
recollect those
4 distant memories, I counted five, and I
thought
5 there was a telephone conversation with
6 [the aunt], a telephone conversation
that might
7 have also been placed to [the grandmother], a
reminder
8 at a meeting, and then I think you said
there may
9 have been a couple of other occasions,
so is it
10 possible it was as many as five times?
11
A I don't think so. I think if I said a couple, and
12 then I would -- I would think three or
four is
13 about it. I'm about as certain as I can be that I
14 didn't go beyond that. This -- there was -- I was
15 very concerned about them. I worked with them a
16 lot and knew the pain that they were
going through,
17 and so naturally I was giving them
whatever
18
insights I thought I had to
help them.
19
Q Yes.
20
A But it simply is not in my
character, quite apart
21 -- and quite apart from -- in fact, I
think I would
22 remember it if I had asked them so many
times. Not
23 only do I not have any such memory, but
it's not in
24 character to keep mentioning it. The point was
25 made, and from then on, there was
nothing more to
26 be said.
27
Q But the initial suggestion
that you made to them
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00160
1 was in a telephone conversation that
you initiated;
2 is that accurate?
3
A Very faintly in my memory, I
think that's how it
4 would have -- I had the idea: Well, here's a new
5 idea for them. They've been complaining about
6 this, I'll call them up about this.
7
Q Right.
8
A And I think that's likely how
it started.
9
Q Now, you described their
complaints as a general
10 thing having to do with this ordeal
that they were
11 going through?
12
A M-hm.
13
Q But do you recall if they had
a specific complaint
14 about their lawyer, either the quality
of legal
15 advice they were getting or perhaps the
fact that
16 it was costing so much?
17
A The expense. Here again, my memory may have been
18 affected by the transcripts, but it
does seem to me
19 that this was a major concern was the
expense. I
20 do not remember specific complaints
about their
21 lawyer's service otherwise, other than
the general
22 one of not succeeding. But that, of course, is not
23
necessarily a lawyer's fault,
so . . .
24
Q Did you ever ask [Tim] Adams if
[the aunt] had
25 contacted him?
26
A I have no specific
memory. It's likely that I did
27 and that that would be the reason why
at this later
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1 meeting I raised the question.
2
Q That you raised the question
with [the aunt]
3 again?
4
A Well, they were both at that
meeting, I believe,
5 so. . .
6
Q Yes. Do you recall the date of that meeting.
7
A No. I do recall the occasion.
8
Q Where was that?
9
A The home of one of the board
members of ECMAS.
10
Q Whose home was that?
11
A Ron Marshall is his name.
12
Q And is that a meeting that was
attended by
13 [the aunt], [the grandmother], and [Tim]
Adams?
14
A [Tim] Adams would not have been
there, no. The two
15 of them, yes.
16
Q In any of your discussions
with [the aunt] or
17 [the grandmother] about getting the
assistance of
18 [Tim] Adams, did you convey information
about
19 [Tim] Adams' background, that is, that
he was once a
20 lawyer and was disbarred?
21
A Here again, the memory is so
fuzzy that I couldn't
22 be sure of an answer to that. What I am quite sure
23 of, because just for practical reasons,
is that I
24 would have talked about the -- I made
the point
25
that he would help them to
represent themselves,
26 because he couldn't do it. That much at least.
27 But even that is only -- is based on
just knowing
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1 what I did, in general, not specific
memories of
2 specific conversations.
3
Q So that answer is based on
your recollection of
4 what your general practice was and not
what
5 happened in this specific instance?
6
A That's correct.
7
Q When you describe it in that
fashion, that is: I
8 suggested that they speak to [Tim] Adams
because he
9 could help them help themselves, or
similar wards,
10 I'm curious, didn't people ever ask you
why you
11 couldn't play that role?
12
A Why I couldn't play?
13 Q
The same role, helping them to help themselves?
14
A I don't recall whether anyone
ever asked that, that
15 is, I don't have a specific
recollection. It
16 fuzzily seems to me that I have been asked
17 something along those lines on
occasion, but mostly
18 they wouldn't ask because I clearly
have no legal
19 background.
20
Q Well, that wouldn't
necessarily be clear to them.
21 A
That's right.
22
Q And that leads, I guess, to my
next question, which
23 is:
Given that you were essentially in the same
24 position as [Tim] Adams insofar as you
could help
25 people help themselves, acknowledging,
of course,
26 that you didn't have the legal training
that
27 [Tim] Adams had, what would you say to
people who
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1 you referred to [Tim] Adams about why
they could get
2 help from him and not you?
3
A Well, it almost seems like an
odd question. I know
4
virtually nothing about the
Rules of Court. The
5 little bit that I've learned is mostly
in this
6 lawsuit. I know very little about the laws
7 involved, except in a general way, and
the
8 procedures of filling out forms, and on
-- and
9 endless details I really know nothing
about, the
10 question would hardly arise. So, I guess, if
11 somebody were to ask for my help, the
answer would
12 be:
I know virtually nothing about how the system
13 works.
14
Q There's another passage from
the article, and I'll
15 read it to you. I don't know if you have a copy of
16
the article. I'm not sure that it's necessary, but
17 if it is, feel free to ask your counsel
to provide
18 it to you. The passage reads:
19 "Another woman describes
20 Christensen's very persistent
21 attempts to persuade her son to
22 become a client of Mr. Adams, 'He
23 constantly kept calling. Why don't
24 you quit your lawyer? Go to
25 [Tim] Adams. Go to [Tim] Adams.'"
26 Do you know who that is?
27
A That would be [the
grandmother].
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1
Q And that is the sister of [the
aunt]?
2
A Yes.
3
Q Another passage:
4 "'What you should do is call
[Tim].
5 [Tim] is a lawyer. You should talk
6 to [Tim].' I've heard him say that
7 several times. But he's never said,
8 '[Tim] is a disbarred lawyer, but
he
9 can still help you.' Ferrel's very
10 adamant and very sure that the
only
11 person that can really help in
that
12 group is [Tim] Adams."
13 Do you know who the speaker is there?
14
A Yes. That would be [Source A].
15
Q [Source A]. How is it that you're able to identify
16 [Source A] from that passage?
17
A Not from that passage alone.
18
Q Oh.
19
A But from all the -- all of the
other details, the
20 other quotes from him in the two
articles, and even
21 more so from the details in the
transcripts that
22 have been turned over.
23
Q All right.
24
A Many things identify him,
quite clearly. Keeping
25 in mind, this is a small group.
26
Q Yes.
27
A There are not that many
candidates.
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1
Q All right. And who is [Source A]?
2
A Depending on how much you want
to know. He was --
3 he came into the ECMAS group about a
year before
4 the events in question here. He got very active
5 very quickly and came to most of the
support group
6 meetings, started coming to the monthly
general
7 meeting as well, and during the process
was
8 appointed by the president to be part
of the
9 Public Affairs Committee for
ECMAS. And, well,
10 there's a long story here. I'm not sure how much
11 you want me to say.
12
Q Well, I'd like to hear it.
13
A He was, at the annual general
meeting, in league
14 with Ms. Malenfant. He ran for president of ECMAS.
15 There's so many details, I don't -- I
don't think
16 it would be wise to keep . . .
17
Q Well, I'll ask you a few
questions. What was it
18 that brought him to ECMAS?
19
A Like most people, he had some
kind of a divorce
20 problem himself at one point, divorce
or
21 separation, and he learned about us,
perhaps on the
22 Internet. I'm not sure about that, but that was
23 the background that brought him -- got
him
24 interested.
25
Q Did he have any family violence issue?
26
A My memory is certainly fuzzy
on this.
27
Q By "issue," I mean
allegation, of course.
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1
A I seem to remember that he
did, but I'm not sure
2 what.
Definitely a custody-type problem.
It was
3 the custody issue that got him
involved, and so he
4 got involved with ECMAS, and there must
not have
5 been anything particularly relevant to
MERGE. It
6 may have been something, but nothing
important
7 enough to have him get involved in --
get involved
8 with MERGE, so . . .
9
Q So he was not involved in
MERGE?
10
A That's right.
11
Q Now, do you know if [Source A]
had retained a
12 lawyer to help him with his custody problem?
13
A I seem to remember that his
custody -- I knew
14 something about his custody
problems. I was in his
15 house and saw him with his son, very
young child.
16 I had the impression that most of his
custody
17 problems were behind him at that
point. In any
18 case, I don't recall much about the
nature of the
19 problems. Some sort of access denial. Something
20 along those lines is all I can seem to
recall.
21
Q But do you know if [Source A]
had a lawyer that he
22 was using for whatever those problems
were?
23
A I do not.
24
Q Do you recall any
conversations with [Source A]
25 where you recommended that he speak to
[Tim]?
26
A No, and I would not have done
so because he started
27 coming to the support group meeting and
met [Tim]
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1 there himself. He was coming to the meetings a
2 great deal. So, no, I can't imagine I would have
3 done that for any reason.
4
Q You say you can't imagine that
you would have done
5 that.
Is it a possibility that, in some
6 conversation, you suggested that
[Source A] speak to
7 [Tim] about legal issues?
8
A Again, I don't think so
because he -- by that
9 point -- by coming to the meeting, he
met [Tim]
10 himself and started coming
regularly. There
11 wouldn't have been any need to give him
that kind
12 of information that I often gave to
others.
13
Q Okay. Now, the passage that I've cited from the
14 article may also be the speaker's
recollection of
15 you talking to someone else.
16
A I believe that that was his
recollection of my
17 saying certain things in the support
group meeting
18 itself.
19
Q Yes. And so do you recall any occasions where
20
[Source A], if [Source A] is the
speaker, would
21 have been present at a support group
meeting where
22 you made the recommendation to somebody
else in the
23 meeting that they speak to [Tim]?
24
A Again, at the time that this all happened,
four
25 years ago, I searched my memory, and I
could
26 remember on more than one occasion, but
not many,
27 speaking -- suggesting that people
confer further
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1 with [Tim] outside the meeting about
their cases.
2 Most of the time when I recommended
people talk to
3 [Tim], it was on the telephone outside
the meeting;
4 but I also recall on a few -- just a
few occasions
5 doing so at the meeting, if that
answers the
6 question.
7 Q
That's very helpful. You said
"on more than one
8 occasion," and then you said
"on a few occasions."
9 Can you give me an estimate of the
number of times
10 you would have done that at meetings?
11
A Can you be more specific about
"done"? What
12 specifically --
13
Q Made a recommendation to
someone at the support
14 group meeting that they consult [Tim]
Adams.
15
A If it's "consult" in
some broad sense, not
16 necessarily hiring him.
17
Q Yes.
18
A It would probably -- at least
a dozen times, I
19 would think, keeping in mind that
mostly,
20 overwhelmingly, when I did that, it was
for them to
21 get some specific piece of information,
not to talk
22 about hiring him.
23
Q Yes, and that's consistent
with your confirmation
24 that you held him in high regard.
25
A Right.
26
Q You had respect for [Tim]
Adams. You viewed him as
27 a good resource for people, and a third
option, in
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1 the trio of options, and, therefore, to
me, it's
2 not surprising that you would have made
that
3 recommendation a dozen times, approximately,
within
4 the context of a support group
meeting. Is that
5 accurate?
6
A Yes, and many more times when
I was talking to
7 people on the phone, other -- outside
the support
8 meeting.
9
Q Yes. Now, the passage that I've referred to,
10 again, the speaker doesn't say that you
were saying
11 that they retained [Tim]. He just says:
12 "'[Tim] is a lawyer. You should talk
13 to [Tim].'"
14 And that's consistent with what you
would have said
15 at the meeting; is that correct?
16
A Well, the part about the
lawyer is perhaps crucial
17 here.
18
Q Yes.
19
A Again, reflecting on this at
the time this was
20 published in the paper and thinking
back, I doubt
21 that in that meeting I would have said
anything
22 about his being a lawyer more than two
or three
23 times.
And also explaining to people:
Well, now,
24 he can't represent you, nevertheless,
he is a
25 lawyer and can give you -- can help you
to help
26 yourself.
27
Q Yes.
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1
A Often enough I would have
suggested that they talk
2 to him without -- without using the
word "lawyer,"
3 but I do believe that on two or three
times I did
4 speak of him as a lawyer saying that he
can't
5 represent you, but he is a lawyer.
6
Q All right. And that's consistent with what the
7 speaker has said as well. He says that, at the
8 support group meeting, you never once
said, "[Tim]
9 is a disbarred lawyer." You would have said: He
10 can't represent you, or words to that
effect; is
11 that accurate?
12
A Words to that effect,
yes. I believe it's correct
13 that I didn't mention that he was
disbarred on
14 those two or three occasions when I
spoke of him as
15 a lawyer, and the reason for that, I
think, is
16 important. It's a long, complex story, his
17 disbarment.
18
Q Yes.
19
A And those meetings in those
days were desperately
20 short of time. More people wanted to tell their
21 stories and get feedback from the group
than could
22 be well accommodated, and so going off
onto a side
23 explanation that might get very time
consuming was
24 not wise. As I've said elsewhere, I believe, you
25 may have read in "My Case," I
saw no need to
26 mention the disbarment because [Tim]
would tell them
27 about it himself, and . . .
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1
Q Yes, I have read that, and you
do refer to that in
2 the document "My Case." Did you not think though
3 that it was an important piece of
information to
4 the people at those support group
meetings, people
5 that you were suggesting speak to [Tim]
Adams?
6
A Yes, it's important.
7
Q Now, in this passage that I've
referred to, that
8 you believe was made by [Source A],
appear the
9 words:
10 "Ferrel's very adamant and
very sure
11 that the only person that can
really
12 help in that group is [Tim]
Adams."
13 I take it that you would disagree with
that
14 statement?
15
A I think it's an overstatement,
but there's an
16 important kernel of truth there.
17
Q Yes. So that speaker summarizing the meeting in
18 that fashion, there's an important
kernel of truth
19 in that?
20
A Yes. [Tim] was the only one coming to those
21 meetings who really knew what the --
the way the
22 court system works. He had a lot of knowledge
23
about the law, and the court
procedures, and so on,
24 and this was very valuable. And, now, it's
25 certainly not true that he's the only
one. In
26 fact, the point of the meetings in the
first place
27 was to have the collective experience
--
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1
Q Yes.
2
A -- of all these lay
individuals on all sorts of
3 things, not all just directly in the
matter of how
4 the court operates but even in regard
to their
5 experience in court, and this
collective experience
6
was very valuable, but, at the
same time, he was
7 the only one with lots of such
knowledge, and that
8 sort of knowledge was very much needed
by the
9 group.
10
Q So perhaps it would have been
better if the speaker
11 had said, in conveying this message,
that you
12 hadn't said that he was the only person
in the
13 group that could really help. Perhaps it would be
14 more accurate to say that he was the
best person in
15 that group for help?
16
A Well, by far the best, and the
possessor of
17 knowledge that, generally speaking --
much
18 knowledge that no one else there did
have.
19
Q There's another passage in the
article . . .
20
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
21
22
(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:00 P.M.)
23
(PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 1:30 P.M.)
24
25 Q
MR. KOZAK: Dr.
Christensen, there is
26 another passage in the article which
reads:
27 "Professor Christensen has
urged him
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1 to hire Mr. Adams. He says, 'Just
2 the one time. It was at a meeting,
3 but I don't remember if it was
4
during a meeting or
afterwards. We
5 usually go downstairs to (a
6 restaurant) and tend to BS a
little.
7 And that's what [Tim] calls his
8 office. It's kind of an inside
9 joke.'"
10 Now, do you know the speaker of that
statement?
11
A [Source B].
12
Q [first name of Source B]?
13
A [spelling out name], I
believe.
14
Q And how are you able to
determine that the speaker
15 is [Source B]?
16
A The details of the transcript
that were turned
17 over, and, again, the fact that this is
a small
18 group where we knew which people had
sided with
19 Louise Malenfant, and I can't say more
without
20 looking back at the actual transcript
and reminding
21 myself, but that's it, in general.
22
Q And by "transcripts"
are you referring to
23 transcripts of interviews done with
people by
24 Donna Laframboise?
25
A I am.
26
Q Now, who was [Source B]?
27
A He was associated with the two
sisters whom we've
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1 talked about, the association being
that
2 [the grandmother]'s son and [Source
B] had children
3 by the same woman and were going
through many of
4 the same difficulties. I don't know how they
5 originally got in touch with each
other, but
6 [the grandmother] brought [Source B] to
his first
7 ECMAS support group meeting.
8
Q So, I'm sorry, [the
grandmother]'s son?
9
A And [Source B] both had
children with the same
10 woman with whom they were having these
ongoing
11 difficulties involving the courts and
Child
12 Welfare.
13
Q I see. That's an interesting relationship.
14
A Yes.
15
Q And so you recall meeting
[Source B], obviously?
16
A Yes, indeed.
17
Q And do you recall the specific
circumstances he
18 found himself in that caused him to
seek the help
19 of ECMAS?
20
A Not highly specific at this
point. No, I guess I
21 shouldn't say more because I'm -- I
could certainly
22 look up old documents and things, but I
don't
23 remember anything specific beyond what
I've just
24 said.
25 Q
When you say you could look up old documents, are
26 those documents that you've produced in
this
27 lawsuit?
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1
A Yes. Well, no.
I should answer carefully here.
2 The old documents would mostly be notes
from the
3 support group, some of which I have
produced with
4 this suit, and I guess that together
with the
5 things that they would trigger in my
memory is what
6 I had in mind when I said that.
7
Q Well, I don't want to go on a
fishing expedition,
8 but from your answer I gather you've
produced some
9 notes from support group meetings and
not others;
10 is that accurate?
11
A That's correct.
12
Q And how did you differentiate
between the two?
13
A The ones produced were for a
period of roughly
14 three months before and roughly three
months after
15 the Post article.
16
Q Well, I'm going to ask you to
undertake to produce
17
all of the notes that you
have for support group
18 meetings, and you can seek the advice
of your
19 lawyer on the relevance, but I'll ask
you for that
20 undertaking.
21
MR. BROWN: We'll take that under
22 advisement. It's very likely that it will
23 completely be irrelevant, but maybe you
want to
24 compel production if we decide it is
irrelevant.
25
MR. KOZAK: Thank you.
26 UNDERTAKING NO.
16:
27 (UNDER ADVISEMENT) PRODUCE ALL OF THE NOTES THAT
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1 DR. CHRISTENSEN HAS FOR SUPPORT GROUP
MEETINGS.
2
Q MR. KOZAK: Now, do you recall speaking to
3 [Source B] about Mr. Adams?
4
A I do not.
5
Q Is it possible that you did speak to [Source
B]
6 about Mr. Adams?
7
A It certainly is possible, yes.
8
Q And do you have any reason to
doubt the accuracy of
9 what he says in this passage?
10
A No specific reason. Let me look at the passage
11 again.
No specific reason to doubt that I
12 suggested he talk to Mr. Adams.
13
A I certainly have some
objection to part of what was
14 said in there, but it doesn't bear on
my suggesting
15 that he talk to Mr. Adams.
16
Q What things in that passage do
you take exception
17 to, beginning with:
18 "Professor Christensen has
urged him..."
19
A Let me take a look, make sure
I don't misstate
20 anything. Okay.
It's the very -- the very last
21 thing he says there:
22 "And that's what [Tim] calls
his
23 office."
24 To my knowledge, [Tim] never said any
such thing as
25 that.
What is the case is that the leader of the
26 group, the support group, Jiggs Haiden,
would
27
frequently refer to the pub
downstairs as "[Tim]'s
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1 study." I never -- I can't remember [Tim] ever
2 referring to it as his office, or his
study, or
3 anything like that; but I certainly
recall
4 Mr. Haiden often calling it
"[Tim]'s study."
5
Q All right. Fair enough.
Other than that, you
6 don't take exception to anything in
that passage?
7
A That's correct. I do not.
8
Q Now, let's go back to an
earlier subparagraph in 15
9 that I asked you about, paragraph
15(b). That
10 passage reads:
11 "Some persons involved with
ECMAS
12 have been falsely accused of
13 sexually abusing children."
14
A M-hm.
15
Q Do you have that passage?
16
A Yes.
17
Q And I want to ask you a few
questions about that.
18 Is it your experience that allegations
of sexual
19 abuse against children is often seen as
a relevant
20
criteria by courts in
deciding custody and family
21 law issues?
22
A In my experience over time,
these accusations have
23 often been made in custody cases. To say that the
24 courts -- how often the courts take
them seriously
25 and act on them, that I couldn't say,
if that's the
26 question. Surely, if the courts felt that there
27 was sex abuse, they would want to
prevent custody,
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1 or prevent access, or something along
those lines.
2 But how often they do, if that's your
question, is
3 not something that I can speak to,
except in a very
4 general way. It seemed to me over time, from the
5 late 1980s onward, that the courts
began to take
6 the accusations less seriously because
of realizing
7 that they were often malicious.
8
Q All right. That's a fair answer to a general
9 question. What is your assessment of the impact of
10 those allegations of sexual abuse of
children on
11 the person accused of the abuse through
your
12 involvement with ECMAS?
13
A Oh, it tends to be
devastating. The people that
14 come to ECMAS and MERGE often come
because of not
15 knowing where else to turn and needing
help; and
16 when it's a case of false accusation of
any kind,
17 they -- there is a -- it's clearly a
big impact on
18 them, and often it's part of the reason
that they
19 come.
20
Q How did you distinguish
between false accusations
21 and valid accusations of sexual abuse
of children?
22
A I certainly try not to make that
decision. I
23 clearly wasn't there. What I am aware of is that a
24 lot of people who claim that they had
been falsely
25 accused give indications of being
sincere and being
26 innocent, but those indications are,
you know, the
27 very sort of general thing that anybody
might rely
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1 on and certainly not something that one
should go
2 around feeling sure of. We have met people that I
3 eventually decided were not to be
trusted and
4 others who, after knowing them a while,
I felt were
5 very trustworthy, but I certainly tried
to keep
6 myself from making any judgment about
what they
7 actually did.
8
Q So is it fair to say that you
started from the
9
presumption that they were falsely accused?
10
A No. No. I
started from the presumption that I
11 should treat these people with sympathy
and respect
12 and give whatever help was possible
without making
13 any judgments of that kind, but
certainly being
14 aware that they certainly could be --
that they're
15 innocent; and if they are, they
certainly need
16 whatever help we can give.
17 Q Passage 15(e), which is one that we dealt
with
18 earlier.
19
A M-hm.
20
Q It's the passage that deals
with the consideration
21 of a motion by ECMAS to suspend you
from the group
22 for three months. Were you aware of that proposal
23 prior to the meeting on March 25th,
2001?
24
A No.
25
Q So you went to that meeting
not knowing that ECMAS
26 might consider such a motion?
27
A I went to the meeting knowing
that they were
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00180
1 considering a motion -- they would
consider a
2 motion to suspend my membership. That particular
3 version apparently came up at the
meeting after I
4 left.
5 To fill out, I think it might be
helpful. The
6 meeting ran from sometime in the
afternoon on into
7 the evening. The first part of the meeting,
8 Mr. Adams and I were there to give
further
9 information; and then when they got
into the full
10 discussion and the votes, Mr. Adams and
I left, and
11 information I have is secondhand from
that point
12 on.
13
Q Right. The afternoon portion of the meeting when
14 you and Mr. Adams gave further
information, was
15 that information about issues that are
the subject
16 matter of this lawsuit?
17
A That's correct.
18
Q So was it a meeting called
especially for that
19 purpose?
20
A It was called especially for
the purpose of
21 considering all of these events, the
threatened
22 article in the Post, and, in
particular, the
23 question of Mr. Adams and my continued --
24 continuing with ECMAS in the same
capacity.
25
Q And so how did the meeting
evolve? Were you asked
26 to address these issues verbally, or
was it a
27
question and answer
period? What happened?
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
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1
A It was very informal, talking
back and forth.
2 That's about the best description I
could give.
3
Q Who chaired the meeting?
4
A Bob Bouvier, the president of
ECMAS.
5
Q Did he start the meeting by
introducing the subject
6 matter, or giving a chronology of
events, or
7 explaining what it was that -- the
business that
8 would be conducted at the meeting?
9
A I have no recollection of the
details.
10
Q Had you --
11 A
Of that kind of detail, sorry.
12
Q Had you attended the meeting
with any kind of
13 prepared text, or chronology of events,
or points?
14
A No.
15
Q So you had an opportunity to
address people, or
16 informally respond to questions, or say
things. I
17 assume that Mr. Adams did as well.
18
A Correct.
19
Q And at a certain point in
time, obviously, you left
20 the meeting. What precipitated that?
21
A Well, it was not felt to be
proper for us to be
22 there for the final discussion and
voting. It's an
23 obvious conflict of interest sort of
thing.
24
Q Did you have a good sense of what the motion
would
25 be that would be under consideration
after you
26 left?
27
A The part about the three-month
suspension, I knew
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00182
1 nothing about when I left.
2
Q So you didn't know whether
somebody would propose a
3 motion to eject you permanently, or a
three-month
4 suspension, or business as usual? You had no
5 inkling of that at all?
6
A That's right. Just in a general sort of way, it
7 was whether to suspend me or not.
8 Q
What was the general tenor of the discussion of
9 that meeting?
10
A I guess I'd need a clear
question.
11
Q Did you feel that you were
being confronted or
12 accused, or were you being supported or
consoled?
13
A I felt that the people there
were quite supportive
14 of both me and [Tim]. Some of the people there knew
15 me more than others, and they were very
supportive.
16
I guess the most -- the best I
could say about the
17 general tenor is that they were very
upset that
18 they were being put in this
position. It felt that
19 it was a very dangerous position to be
in, so I had
20 to decide what was best for the group.
21
Q And do you remember [Tim] Adams
addressing the group
22 at the meeting?
23
A Not in any specific, no.
24
Q And were they generally
supportive of Mr. Adams in
25 addition to you?
26
A Yes. I think it's fair to say that they were all
27 quite supportive, but, of course, some
people
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
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1 wouldn't say everything that they
think, but quite
2 supportive is how I would describe the
people
3 there.
4
Q Was ECMAS Edmonton asked by the Calgary
branch of
5 ECMAS to take steps with respect to
your views and
6 your continuing involvement with ECMAS
Edmonton?
7
A I believe you know as much as
I on that case. The
8 Calgary group sent a letter basically
demanding
9 that I be removed, and demanding that
Mr. Adams be
10 removed.
11
Q And you're referring to a
document that you've
12 included in your production, I assume?
13
A Yes, indeed. In fact, I think it was in your
14 production as well, but, anyway, it's
in there
15 somewhere.
16
Q I have it listed as 12.2 in
your production, but
17 you don't have to find it because I'm
not going to
18 ask anymore questions about it.
19 I would ask you to refer to
document 22.1 in
20 your production.
21
MR. BROWN: 22. --
22
MR. KOZAK: 1.
23
A Okay.
24
Q MR. KOZAK: Do you see the reference to --
25 this, obviously, is an email from Bob
Bouvier
26 apparently sent to Donna Laframboise?
27
A Yes.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00184
1
Q Is that your information as
well?
2
A Yes, indeed.
3
Q Part of the text of that email
reads:
4 "As the board of the Edmonton
5 chapter of ECMAS, we should
suspend
6 Ferrel Christensen as a member of
7 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS for
a
8 period of three months, and in
this
9 time investigate whether his views
10 conflict with the guiding
principles
11 and policies of ECMAS."
12 When did you first become aware of this
motion
13 being put to the members assembled on
March 25th,
14 2001?
15
A After the meeting was over,
Mr. Bouvier phoned me
16 to let me know what had transpired
after I left,
17 and he described it to me then.
18
Q What did he tell you about
that motion and the
19 outcome of the vote?
20
A Well, the outcome of the vote,
this has not been --
21 this was not published. It was a somewhat
22 complicated matter, so I'll just fill
that out, if
23 I may.
24
Q Sure.
25
A And, again, this was all what
he told me, of course.
26
Q Yes.
27
A There were -- the vote came
out against me by a
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00185
1 margin of one vote.
2
Q Yes.
3
A That is, to pass this motion;
however, things were
4 sort of rushed and scrambled, and
everyone was
5 tired at the end of the meeting, and so
they broke
6 up right after the vote, and then he
realized that
7 there were two major problems here with
the vote
8 that had been taken. One item is that they had
9 forgotten to contact by telephone the
board members
10 who were not able to be at that meeting
and who
11 were waiting at home to be phoned for
any final
12 votes.
I hope this is fairly clear.
13 One woman -- one of the two board members,
14 both women, one was at home, not very
well. She
15 had been at the prior meeting on the
preceding
16 Wednesday where these things were
discussed for the
17 first time, but she was not feeling
well, so she
18 stayed home, and with the understanding
that she
19 would be called for any final
decisions.
20 The other board member was also at
home with
21 her child, waiting at home for the same
reason, to
22 be called for any final decisions. And in being
23 tired and rushed at the end, they had
forgotten to
24 call these two women, both of whom had
been at the
25 Wednesday meeting, to call them for
their votes.
26 So there was this irregularity in the
voting.
27 The other irregularity which Mr.
Bouvier was
A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.
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00186
1 late in realizing until afterwards
involved two --
2 it's sort of an unusual thing that
ECMAS does,
3 allowing two persons to occupy one
office. It's
4 something that's been done repeatedly
because it's
5 so hard to find people who had much
time to put in.
6 And so the two persons, [Source A] and [his girlfriend],
7 at the previous -- at the annual
general meeting
8 had been elected jointly to fill an
office -- a
9 position on the board, and, by the
bylaws, that
10 allowed them only one vote on the
board.
11 Nevertheless, according to what Mr.
Bouvier told
12 me, he finally -- as he finally
realized it, they
13 had given separate votes, two votes, in
that final
14 vote on me and Mr. Adams.
15
Q Presumably they had voted
against you?
16
A When I look back over it and
count up people that
17 told me that they voted for me, the two
of them
18 quite clearly had voted against
me. And so in
19 discussing this whole matter with Mr.
Bouvier
20 afterwards, he basically said that he
was sorry
21 that this had happened. It was rushed, they were
22 tired, and so on, but that he would be
calling
23 people to get it all straightened out
before
24 considering this to be the final
decision of the
25 board.
I hope that's clear.
26
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
27
Q MR. KOZAK: So who were the two female
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
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00187
1 members who were at home?
2 A
Bev Fowler.
3
Q Yes.
4
A And Gail Radford-Ross. That's a hyphenated last
5 name.
6
Q Did the bylaws permit them to
vote even if they
7 hadn't been present for the debate?
8
A The bylaws allowed for voting
and meetings by
9 telephone, and that was the
understanding that they
10 were acting under.
11
Q So what eventually
happened? Bob Bouvier called
12 you at home to say: Here's what's happened. You
13 were suspended for three months as a
result of the
14 vote, but there were two
irregularities, and I'm
15 going to fix things up, or address them,
whatever
16 he said?
17
A Roughly. The vote was -- he was not considering
18 the vote valid because of those
irregularities.
19
Q And what happened after that,
to the best of your
20 knowledge?
21
A To my knowledge, again gotten
from him and others
22 that I spoke to, he contacted the other
board
23 members, and to get a final vote tally,
all done by
24 telephone. There was not another actual coming
25 together.
26
Q Yes.
27
A And on that basis, he said
that the vote had gone
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00188
1 in my favor against this resolution,
and so the
2 motion failed.
3
Q Now, did that, to your
knowledge, come as a
4 surprise to any of the members who had
left the
5 meeting thinking that the motion had
passed?
6
A I have no direct knowledge of
that. One would --
7 one would think so, but I'm going by
what he told
8 me.
9
Q Yes.
10
A And that's my understanding.
11
Q How long was it between the
initial call from
12 Bob Bouvier saying that the motion had
been passed
13 and when you heard from him that, in
fact, the
14 motion had been
defeated?
15
A I think he had settled it all
by making the
16 appropriate phone calls by Tuesday
evening
17 following.
18
Q And this was -- this meeting
was on what?
19
A It was held on Sunday.
20
Q Sunday, so a period of two
days, approximately?
21
A I believe this email indicates
that things are sort
22 of hanging, the need to reconvened to
vote; but
23 they did not reconvene, as I
understand. He simply
24 talked to all of the board members on
the phone to
25 get their -- to get their final votes.
26
Q Was there any discussion about
whether these
27 irregularities had any impact on the
earlier
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
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1 motions dealing with [Tim] Adams?
2 A No.
My understanding is that they did not, and I
3 believe it's fairly clear in here that
the motion
4 to accept [Tim] Adams' resignation as
vice president
5 was accepted, and the motion to suspend
his
6 membership or to end his membership in
ECMAS was
7 simply defeated at the time.
8
Q Well, what's not clear to me
though is whether
9 those were close votes; and, if so,
whether the
10 people who had the right to participate
and didn't
11 might have changed the outcome?
12
A I'm afraid I can't give any
more information than
13 that.
I don't know how close the votes on [Tim]
14 were, and I can't speak to that.
15
Q Would you agree that the
outcome of this vote, that
16 is, the eventual outcome of the vote,
was an
17 endorsement that your views were not
inconsistent
18 with those of ECMAS?
19
A I guess so, keeping in mind
that when the people
20 voted, they hadn't actually read my
book. I was
21 handing out copies for them to look at,
and some of
22 them took the copies home with
them. They couldn't
23 say for certain what was in the
book. They had to
24 go by what they knew about me, and I
was there
25 telling them that the allegation that
26 Ms. Laframboise allegedly made to Mr.
Bouvier was
27 false.
They -- I believe that they generally were
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00190
1 willing to accept my word on that, even
though they
2 felt that they were in a very hard
situation, and
3 hence the compromise idea of just
suspending me for
4
a short time until heat was off,
or something like
5 that.
My feeling was that they were quite willing
6 to trust my word, but they did not have
direct
7 knowledge, so that's the situation they
were in.
8
Q Now, in 15(p), that's the
statement that deals with
9 the Calgary chapter of ECMAS resigning
and
10 disassociating itself from the ECMAS
trade name.
11 Do you know of the reasons for the action
taken by
12 the Calgary board members?
13
A As I understand the situation,
and I think it's
14 fairly well bourne out in the
documents, they were
15 simply acting on what they heard from
16 Ms. Laframboise and Ms. Malenfant,
acting under the
17 duress or fear of what could happen to
them
18 personally and to their organization,
but not from
19 any real knowledge of me, or my book,
or Mr. Adams.
20
Q Did anybody from the Calgary
ECMAS organization
21 attempt to get in touch with you
regarding these
22 issues?
23
A At the time, none of them made
any attempt that I'm
24 aware of to get in touch with me.
25
Q Did you make any effort to get
in touch with them?
26
A I did in the following week,
and this is -- this is
27 revealed in the tape recording and the
transcript
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00191
1 that has been turned over already of my
2 conversation with Mr. Laberge when I called
him to
3 basically say: Why did you do this?
4
Q Any other conversations with
anybody else at the
5 Calgary arm of ECMAS?
6
A Not at the time. On a later occasion, and I
7
believe these emails have
been turned over as well,
8 on a later occasion I said some things
to
9 Mr. Laberge, and his vice president
responded, and
10 -- but this was at a much -- quite a
bit later
11 time.
I'm presuming you're familiar with those
12 emails, and so I don't need to go into
a long
13 discussion.
14
Q Yes.
15
A And so those were the only
contacts that I had with
16 them.
17
Q And 15(m) is a statement about
the Edmonton chapter
18 of ECMAS electing [Tim] Adams as vice
president on
19 March 12, 2001. Were you at that meeting?
20
A I was.
21 Q
And did you vote for [Tim] Adams?
22
A I did not.
23
Q And did a majority of the
people at that meeting
24 vote for [Tim] Adams?
25
A A slim majority, as those who
counted the ballots
26 described it to us, voted for [Tim]
Adams.
27
Q And did anybody who cast a
vote at the March 12th,
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00192
1 2001, meeting, did they participate by
telephone?
2
A No.
3
Q So all of the members were
present at that meeting
4 that were entitled to vote?
5
A Do you mean all of the board
members?
6
Q Yes.
7
A I'm trying now to recall
whether it's only board
8 meetings that are allowed to be carried
out
9 telephonically, or whether it would
apply to
10
general meetings. In any case, there were no
11 telephone votes there. There were certain people
12 who were either standing to be elected
to the board
13 or were already board members who could
not be
14 there and who let it be known in
advance that they
15 wanted, by absentee ballots, absentee
ballots to be
16 cast in favor of the current president
to be
17 re-elected. So there were some there who -- some
18 board members or to be board members
who were not
19 actually present at that time, in case
that covers
20 your question.
21
Q Were there any absentee
ballots cast for [Tim] Adams?
22
A They would have to -- pretty
well have to have been
23 for [Tim] Adams, as they sort of
calculated it out
24 afterwards because, as I think I've
written in my
25 other document, the number of people
who came
26 visibly with Ms. Malenfant, together
with
27 [Source A]and [his girlfriend],
if you count up those
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00193
1 people, that's basically number of
votes that
2 [Source A] got.
3
Q That [Source A] got?
4
A Got. He was running for president.
5
Q Right.
6
A The others all voted for Bob
Bouvier. I'm sorry,
7 was your question about Bob Bouvier or
[Tim] Adams?
8
Q Was actually about [Tim] Adams.
9
A I'm sorry, I got distracted
there.
10 Q
That's all right.
11
A Because the votes as it turned
out were by written
12 ballot, I do not know which individuals
voted for
13 which person, in a general sort of way,
except in
14 my own case. I know that I voted for [the girlfriend].
15
Q So who were the people running
for the position of
16 vice president?
17
A [Tim] Adams and [the girlfriend].
18
Q Why did you vote for [the girlfriend]?
19
A The story is a bit complicated
again. I've written
20 about it in the earlier exhibit from
last time, so
21 that I'll retell that story, if that
would make
22 things most clear now.
23
Q Yes.
24
A There was a great deal of
concern on my part,
25 shared by a number of others, including
the
26 president, Bob Bouvier, that Ms.
Malenfant might
27 come and stand for one of the offices,
and our
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00194
1 feeling was that the best way to try to
avoid her
2 getting on the board was to have
someone already
3 lined up, some candidate. The general problem of
4 not having enough candidates being one
that we'd
5 always lived with. We needed to have someone
6 there.
And so in the run-up to the annual general
7 meeting, we were paying attention to
whether we had
8 candidates for all of the offices, and
sort of at
9 the last minute, there was still no
candidate for
10 vice president. And in discussion with Mr. Bouvier
11 and with another very active member,
Elsie Cable,
12 we were trying to see if we could get
somebody to
13 stand for that position so that Ms.
Malenfant would
14 not be tempted to stand for the
position.
15 Bob and I tried to get Elsie Cable
to stand
16 for that position, and her answer was
she was
17 willing to do so if no one else would
take the job.
18 She really didn't want to very much,
that is, if no
19 one other than Ms. Malenfant would
stand for that
20 position. And Bob also asked [the girlfriend] if
she
21 would stand for that position, and she,
when asked
22 a few weeks in advance of the meeting,
said that
23 she would give it some thought. So we went to the
24 meeting with the assurance that one way
or another,
25 we had a candidate, and if -- one of
those two
26 women would run for vice president.
27 When we got to the meeting, [the girlfriend]
said that she
A.C.E. Reporting Services
Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00195
1 had decided she would let her name
stand for
2 vice president; and so in a brief
discussion before
3 the meeting, Elsie
said: All right then, of course
4 I won't. We'll just let it be that way. And
5 that's basically the story on how [the girlfriend]
was --
6 originally stood for that
position. She was asked
7 to do so by Bob Bouvier, and accepted
it right at
8 the last minute.
9
Q All right. And do you know how [Tim] Adams came to
10 have his name put forward?
11
A I know what he told me, and,
again, I've written
12 about this already, but it's, of
course, crucial.
13
Q Yes.
14
A I was surprised when he -- the
call was put out for
15 any further nominations, and he put his
name in. I
16 was really quite puzzled at that.
17
Q He nominated himself?
18
A He nominated himself.
19
Q Yes.
20
A Because, again, we had
discussed these things in
21 advance, and he had never given to me
any
22 indication that he was thinking of
running for an
23 office.
In any case, I asked him immediately
24 afterwards, after the meeting when we
could talk
25 about such things, it having been too
difficult to
26 discuss them while the meeting was
going on, and
27 his answer afterwards was that he was
fearful that
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1 [the girlfriend] was in league with Louise Malenfant,
2 and the reason he was fearful of that
is that we
3 had strong suspicions that [Source A]
was in league
4 with Louise Malenfant, and he was
fearful that she
5 would get an ally on the board and that
this should
6 be blocked, if there was some way to do
it. Again,
7 he was concerned about this because of
our previous
8 discussions of Ms. Malenfant's possible
plans, and
9 so that's why he put his name forward,
according to
10 what he told me. And, again, as I've written
11 elsewhere, he was not one of those who
knew that
12 Bob Bouvier had asked [the girlfriend] to
run for the
13 office, and so he was -- he was not in
my position
14 of having the same reason to vote for
her. I hope
15 that's . . .
16
Q So your vote against [Tim]
Adams -- I suppose I
17 shouldn't describe it that way. Your vote for
18 [the girlfriend] had nothing to do with [Tim] Adams'
19 disbarment or any of his criminal
convictions?
20
A No, that doesn't follow. I have -- and, again,
21 I've said this elsewhere, my feeling
was that given
22 his disbarment, he shouldn't be in a
position like
23 that.
I think it's unwise. I don't
think it's
24 morally improper, but I think that a
lot of people
25 would see it as a bad thing, and so for
that reason
26 one should not take a chance on it.
27
Q So not morally wrong but
imprudent?
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Reporting Services Inc.
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00197
1
A Certainly imprudent, given the
way people might
2 view it, many people might view it.
3
Q And so the concern, if I can
put it another way, is
4 a practical one. That organization is dealing with
5 people's perceptions, and people's
perceptions
6 might have an adverse impact on the
efficacy of
7 what the group is trying to accomplish?
8
A Yes, practical in the sense of
prudential.
9
Q Yes. Was your concern about that perception and
10 the imprudence of having [Tim] Adams as
your vice
11 president relating -- was that related
only to his
12 disbarment, or also to his criminal
conviction, or
13 both?
14
A To both, surely.
15
Q And you knew the circumstances
of the criminal
16 conviction of [Tim] Adams and the fact
that he had
17 had sexual relations with a 16-year-old
girl; you
18 knew the background?
19
A He did not have sexual
relations with her. The
20 police arrived and stopped him.
21
Q Oh, I see. All right.
22
A Yes, I knew the basics because [Tim] himself
had
23 told me at the time when he began
coming to the
24 support group. He took me aside and made sure that
25 I was aware of it, and I quite
appreciated his
26 having done that ever afterwards.
27
Q And had he also been very
forthright with you in
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1 terms of disclosing to
you that he had also pleaded
2 guilty to a charge in 1994 of
unlawfully
3 communicating with a person for the
purpose of
4 obtaining sexual services of a
prostitute?
5
A As I recall, he had told me
about that as well, but
6 I couldn't tell you at what time he
told me, and at
7 what point he told me.
8
Q Can you remember at any time
during your work with
9 ECMAS any of the people who attended
those meetings
10 expressing a concern to you about [Tim]
Adams' past
11 or his involvement with ECMAS in light
of that
12 past?
13
A I do not remember anyone being
terribly worried
14 about it. Those of us who knew what he was doing
15 were, like me, very grateful.
16
Q Yes.
17
A Maybe grateful that he had a
past like this,
18 otherwise he likely would not have been
helping us.
19
Q Well, it may be a subtle
distinction, but I hadn't
20 asked you about whether people were
terribly
21 worried. I had asked you whether anybody had
22 expressed a concern. I view those two things as
23 being significantly different.
24
A I see.
25
Q Yes.
26
A I don't remember anyone
expressing concern about
27
it.
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1
Q All right.
2
A It may have. Someone may have done, but . . .
3
Q Nothing that sticks out in your mind?
4
A No, nothing.
5
Q 15(n) in that pleading deals
with the March 25th,
6 2001, meeting of the Edmonton chapter
of ECMAS
7 voting to accept the resignation of
[Tim] Adams as
8 vice president.
9
A M-hm.
10
Q Now, in light of what you've
said about the
11 practical perception and the prudence
of [Tim] Adams
12 being vice president, immediately after
his
13 election did you voice that concern to
[Tim] Adams?
14
A I don't believe I did.
15
Q Why was that?
16
A Just the general rush of
everything. There was
17 bits and pieces of conversation with
this person
18 and that person, and it wasn't a time
when you
19 could sit down and have an in depth
conversation,
20 so that's basically my reason for
thinking I would
21 not have raised it with him.
22
Q Did you express those concerns
to Bob Bouvier?
23
A Again, not at that time, and
for the same reason, I
24 believe.
25
Q I take it from your answers
that sometime, not
26 immediately after the election but at
some point
27 after the election, you expressed those
concerns to
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1 either or both of [Tim] Adams and Bob
Bouvier?
2
A Well, mostly because this
whole matter came up very
3 quickly thereafter, it was naturally a
major point
4
of discussion, indeed.
5
Q Well, I guess what I'm getting
at is, did you
6 express concerns to anybody about the
perception
7 issue, that is, having [Tim] Adams as
the vice
8 president after his election but before
the issues
9 were raised by Donna Laframboise?
10
A Again, I'm quite sure I did
not, there having been
11 no meetings or occasion to sit down to
talk about
12 these things. And, again, if I -- to be very
13 clear, when I say I felt it would be
imprudent for
14 him to be vice president, it's not as
if I saw it
15 as somehow an insurmountable obstacle
and a matter
16 for great alarm. I don't mean to have it
17 understood that way. It's something that's
18 worrisome, but something that, I guess
in my mind,
19 I felt that we could work out and
settle sometime
20 in the weeks ahead so that there was no
rush for me
21 to go to anybody with it.
22 I did have the feeling at the time
that this
23 would probably be quite temporary
because we could
24 get somebody else to take the position,
if, indeed,
25 as he said, he just did this. As Mr. Adams said,
26 this was a stop gap thing that he did
on the spur
27 of the moment. My feeling was it would be easy
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1 enough to change the situation in the
near future,
2 and so there was no need for me to
approach anybody
3 about it.
4
Q At the meeting where Bob
Bouvier and [Tim] Adams
5 were elected, was there any discussion
prior to the
6 vote about thwarting any power grab by
7 Louise Malenfant?
8
A Discussion prior to the
meeting with certain key
9 people, such as Bob Bouvier and Elsie
Cable. Some
10 discussion with [Tim] Adams about it and
with a
11 couple of others, though I don't
remember for sure
12 who the others were.
13
Q But no discussion at the
meeting itself?
14
A No, not at the meeting.
15
Q I started to ask you about the
meeting on March
16 25th, 2001, when [Tim] Adams resigned
and ECMAS
17 voted to accept his resignation. Were you at that
18 meeting?
19
A That's the meeting on the
Sunday that we've
20 described where [Tim] and I were there
for a while
21 and then left.
22
Q Were you aware prior to the
meeting that [Tim] Adams
23 intended to submit his resignation or
tender his
24 resignation?
25
A Yes, indeed. In fact, he had tendered his
26 resignation at the previous meeting the
previous
27 Wednesday, but the board did not accept
it at that
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1 time because they simply didn't know
enough of what
2 was going on. They had heard that Ms. Laframboise
3 was phoning people and making these
accusations and
4 threatening to come up with a newspaper
article,
5 but they didn't have any firsthand
information
6 about that. It was all secondhand reports. So
7 they decided not to accept his
resignation at that
8 time and instead putting it over until
the weekend.
9
Q Did you discuss the concept of
the resignation with
10 [Tim] Adams prior to the Sunday meeting?
11
A Well, at the Wednesday
meeting, we were discussing
12 that, so, yes.
13
Q I guess what I'm getting at,
and I didn't do a very
14 good job of asking this question,
is: Did you take
15 a position and tell [Tim] Adam whether
you thought
16 he should resign or not?
17
A I presume I did, but there was
never any real
18 question. He had already told Ms. Laframboise that
19 he would resign. We all saw this as something that
20 was reasonable to do, and there was, as
I recall,
21 not a lot of discussion about his doing
it. It was
22 just a need for clarification of what's
going on
23 before it was actually done, before it
was
24 accepted. But he was -- there was no need to tell
25 him, "You should resign,"
because he had given us
26 his resignation.
27 Q
All right. Well, at the Wednesday
meeting where he
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1 tendered his resignation, did you take
a position
2 or a stand as to whether or not he
should or
3 shouldn't do that?
4
A As I'm saying now, I don't
remember any of my words
5 there, but I am sure that I took no
position
6 against it, that any position I took
was in favor
7 of his doing it.
8
Q And that's consistent with the
belief that you had
9 right from the moment when he was
elected that,
10
from a practical perception
perspective, it wasn't
11 good for the organization for him to be
vice president?
12
A That's fair to say, yes.
13
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
14
(ADJOURNMENT)
15
Q MR. KOZAK: I wanted to ask you a few
16 questions about Louise Malenfant. When did you
17 first learn of her work? I assume you knew about
18 her work before you met her?
19
A Oh, yes, for some years. I could not put a date on
20 it, but I was aware for at least
several years
21 before inviting her to Edmonton that
she was there
22 helping people that she believed had
been falsely
23 accused of child sex abuse, and at one
point she
24 sent me some material that she had
written, and it
25 seemed to be fairly well written, and
it was
26 voluminous. Here's a person who puts out huge
27 amounts of material, and that can be
very good, if
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1 you can get somebody who can -- is very
good at
2 writing a lot on a subject and writing
reasonably
3 well.
That's -- I certainly felt a need for that
4 in our situation here.
5
Q And what was it that made you
aware of her work? I
6 mean, how did you learn of her work?
7
A I can't be sure at the
first. One thing that I do
8 know is that I met her at a conference
in Winnipeg
9 put on by a local equality group on the
specific
10 problem of false accusations, and she
was at that
11 meeting, and I met her in person
briefly at that
12 time and heard her speak to the group,
standing up
13
in the audience and making
points, and found her
14 fairly articulate. So I guess the first time I
15 can -- I can be sure that I knew about
her was at
16 that meeting, although I'm reasonably
sure I'd
17 heard something about her before then.
18
Q Do you recall the approximate
date of that meeting?
19
A I would guess about 1996, but
I could be off by a
20 year in either direction, easily.
21 Q
The large volume of writing that she sent to you,
22 do you remember the subject matter of
that?
23
A It all had to do with these
accusations of child
24 sex abuse.
25
Q And was it only that general
knowledge that
26 precipitated your invitation to her to
come to
27 Edmonton to do this contract work that
you've
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1 described?
2
A Pretty well just a general
knowledge, being
3 desperate for help. I guess, in retrospect, I
4 should have gotten more detailed knowledge
about
5 her, but that was -- I think it's
correct to say
6 that that's about all I knew.
7
Q So you had met her once. You had received some of
8 her written work, and you may have been
aware
9 generally of some other things that she
had done?
10
A Yes.
11
Q Did you look into her
background or ask for
12 references before inviting her to
Edmonton?
13
A No. No, I did not.
14
Q And for those three months
when she received $2,000
15 from you, what was your assessment of
her work?
16
A I'm hoping you don't want huge
amounts of detail.
17 I felt that her work was somewhat more
sloppy than
18 I had originally assumed or hoped,
nevertheless in
19 a correctable way. I'm speaking as an academic
20 with high standards of rigor; but,
nevertheless,
21
she's quite articulate, and if
by her work you're
22 referring to the written material she
-- written
23 material she produced, I would say that
my
24 assessment was: Well, this isn't quite good
25 enough, but we can -- we can fix that,
so it's
26 okay.
27
Q So not great but capable of
rehabilitation?
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1
A Capable. Had she had the right personality, and
2 she was willing to correct herself and
improve her
3 work, certainly good enough.
4
Q So did you judge her personality
to be unsuitable
5 for the work you envisioned?
6
A You say
"personality" as opposed to ability?
Is
7 that -- that's what you --
8
Q I did say
"personality," but I thought that I was
9 repeating a word that you had
used. I might not
10 have heard it correctly.
11
A Oh, sorry. Then in that case, when I spoke of her
12 personality, I had in mind her, as I
discovered
13 later, her unwillingness to work in a
congenial way
14 with other people, and I think if she
-- if she had
15 been more willing to work
cooperatively, then there
16 would have been no problem because she
does have
17 the ability.
18
Q How did that uncooperative
attitude first manifest
19 itself?
20
A Here again, I'm not sure how
much detail you want,
21 how much -- I'm certainly not sure how
much is
22 relevant really, but very soon after
she arrived in
23 Edmonton, I became aware that she's
very rigid,
24 very judgmental, very insensitive to
other people,
25 and it just got worse from there.
26
Q And her insensitivity and
rigidity, as it was I
27 suppose demonstrated to you and to
others, was this
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1 primarily within the context of ECMAS?
2
A No, because ECMAS was not
directly involved in
3 this.
She was working for me on people -- stories
4 of people that were -- that come to
MERGE meetings.
5
Q Yes.
6
A Which I think -- I guess that
answers your
7 question.
8
Q Yes. So was she actively involved at MERGE
9 meetings?
10
A What happened was that when
she first came, I held
11 a meeting of the MERGE Police Committee
and the
12 MERGE Child Welfare Committee, two
separate
13 meetings right away, invited her to
each one and
14 introduced her to the group and
explained to them
15 that we've had this problem of needing
to get your
16 stories written up in a nice, careful
way, and I
17 hadn't had time to do it, and many of
you have not
18 had really the ability to do it, to do
it well, so
19 now we've got someone here who can help
get these
20 stories written up, research them and
written up.
21 Subsequent to those first two
meetings, we
22 began having some serious conflicts,
and so I
23 didn't call any more MERGE meetings at
which she
24 would have attended.
25
Q I'm just trying to get an idea
of the nature of the
26 conflicts. Was she reluctant to write the stories,
27 or was she --
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1
A Oh, no, she was -- I mean,
that -- not to write the
2 stories, and it wasn't really so much a
conflict
3 over the stories themselves initially,
although at
4 the end I discovered that she was not
happy with my
5 making suggestions on changes and the
need for
6 such.
The problem was much more serious than that,
7 as I see it.
8 Again, I'm wondering just how much
this is
9 really relevant to the lawsuit. I'm perfectly
10 willing to share it, but I'm -- you can
see that
11 I'm a bit concerned.
12
Q Well, no, I believe it is
relevant, and that's why
13 I've asked the question. You know, your counsel is
14 here to object to things that aren't
relevant. I
15 see it as relevant, given the nature of
the
16 allegations made and the suggestion
that there was
17 malice in either direction, either the
Counterclaim
18 or the Claim.
19
A M-hm.
20
Q So I'm trying to get a sense
of what it was that
21
caused the falling out
between you and
22 Ms. Malenfant.
23
A I'm perfectly willing to share
that. My concern is
24 that if Donna didn't know any of these
details,
25 then it wouldn't be relevant to her --
any malice
26 on her part, although it certainly
would be
27 relevant to the motives of Ms.
Malenfant.
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1
MR. BROWN: He's just
here to discover
2 you, so he can -- you can elaborate on
it. If it
3 turns out that it's irrelevant, then it
goes by the
4
wayside, but you might as
well.
5
A Okay. Let's see if I can give enough -- more
6 detail that would be helpful.
7 The biggest problem arose from the
fact that
8 she's a very harsh person, very harsh
and
9 judgmental, and she would -- when she
disagrees
10 with something, instead of discussing
it and
11 arguing, as a philosopher might, here
are my
12 reasons, and so on, it was more like
sneering and
13 jeering, and I found that hard to deal
with. And
14 when I reacted negatively, she became
even worse.
15 And worst of all, she began making
false
16 accusations at me, not to anybody else
at that
17 point, just saying things that --
making claims
18 about what I had said and done that we
both knew
19 were false, and to me this is scary.
20 When I -- when she persisted in
this behavior,
21 I said:
Look, I have to protect myself.
Let us
22 from this point on, unless other people
are around
23 so I have witnesses, let us communicate
just by
24 telephone, and let us both record those
telephone
25 conversations, or by email. I was that concerned
26 by that point about being falsely
accused by
27 Louise Malenfant.
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1
Q MR. KOZAK: What was she falsely accusing
2 you of?
3
A A variety of things. I do have some records on
4 this at this point from the time that
it began to
5 start, sometimes quite trivial things,
and the
6 trivial things can be even scarier
because you say:
7 Why would a person go that far knowing
that it's
8 not true?
9 I hesitate to answer in a lot of
detail
10 without going back and looking at some
of -- some
11 of the emails that I have, for example,
but let's
12 see if I can -- if I can remember.
13 Okay, there was -- I had
said: It looks as
14 if there's so much conflict here that
we may not be
15 able to work together. And her email came back and
16 said:
You're trying to drive me out of Alberta.
17 Now, this is quite crazy. Not being able to work
18 together is not the same thing as
saying: I want
19 to drive her out of the province. But the fact
20 that she would say this sort of thing,
sort of
21 outrageous thing, put a lot of fear
into me. I
22 hope that an example will help, but it
was this
23
kind of thing.
24
Q Well, did it go beyond a
communication problem,
25 because to me that sounds as if you've
expressed a
26 concern, and she has escalated the
concern, I'm
27 sure in your mind very
inappropriately? Was it
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1 something beyond that?
2
A Well, again, there were --
there were many events,
3 and I wouldn't want to try to describe
them here
4 without checking some of my notes, but
one from
5 very early on I can report.
6 I was -- she did not have an
automobile, did
7 not drive, and so initially I was
driving her
8 around to various meetings, and on one
occasion I
9 was taking her out to meet this
long-time activist,
10 Elsie Cable, whom I mentioned. We were driving
11 out, and on the way she said: Could we stop and
12 get some coffee? And it didn't seem like a very
13 serious matter to me. I said:
Oh, please wait.
14
When we get to Elsie's, she'll
have some waiting
15 for you. She likes to serve her guests. And a
16 little farther along, we were coming up
to a
17 7-Eleven, and she said: I'd like to go in there
18 and use the restroom. So I stopped there, and
19 instead of heading for the restroom
when she got
20 inside, she headed straight for the
coffee machine,
21 and, not thinking quite fast enough, I
said: Oh,
22 remember, Elsie can give us some coffee
when we get
23 there.
And she looked at me with steely eyes and
24 said:
Don't give me orders.
25 There were lots of things like that
that I
26 found very, very hard to deal with.
27
Q It sounds like you two didn't
hit it off.
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1
A That's a correct inference.
2
Q All right. Well, perhaps what I'll do is I'll ask
3 you to check the emails that you've
referred to, to
4 see if there are other instances that
shed some
5 light on this falling out that you've
had, because
6 I draw a distinction between the types
of examples
7 that you've given, which I'm sure were
very
8 troubling to you, and what you had
conveyed
9 earlier, that is, where you were
"falsely accused"
10 of things, I think those were your
words, so in
11 this case she falsely accused you of
giving her
12 orders.
Is that a fair description?
13
A I wasn't thinking of it that
way. I was thinking
14 of her accusation that I meant to drive
her out of
15 the province.
16
Q I see. Would it be fair to characterize your worry
17 as she misunderstood or misinterpreted
things that
18 you said to her?
19
A It's hard for me to see how a
reasonable person
20 could misunderstand that egregiously,
so I guess I
21 wouldn't accept that.
22
Q Well, I'm going to ask you to
undertake to produce
23 any emails or other documents that you
have that
24 document the falling out or the
deterioration in
25
your relationship with
Louise Malenfant, subject to
26 any concern or objection that your
counsel has to
27 relevance. Would you undertake to provide those to
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1 your lawyer?
2
A Subject to relevance, yes,
that's not a problem.
3
Q All right.
4 UNDERTAKING NO.
17:
5 PRODUCE ANY EMAILS OR OTHER DOCUMENTS
THAT
6 DR. CHRISTENSEN HAS THAT DOCUMENT THE
FALLING OUT
7 OR THE DETERIORATION IN HIS
RELATIONSHIP WITH
8 LOUISE MALENFANT.
9
Q MR. KOZAK: How soon in this three-months
10 tenure, and I'm referring to the three
months for
11 which she was paid, did these issues
start to
12 manifest themselves?
13
A Quite early on, the first
couple of weeks really,
14 and what happened then, we had quite a
-- quite a
15 blow-up over it; but then as we got
close to the
16 end of the first month, she began
talking in a more
17 reasonable way to question whether she
would get
18 paid again, and we managed to get a
detente, and we
19 worked together, mostly uneventfully,
until close
20 to the end of the three-month period.
21
Q In your mind, was she that
mercenary that she
22 modified her behavior just to assure
herself of
23 getting the next $2,000 installment?
24
A Well, she doesn't have any
money otherwise, so it's
25 -- but, obviously, I can't -- I can't
speak to her
26 inner thoughts, but the timing was such
that that
27 seemed to be what made her change.
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1
Q Prior to the article being
published, or I guess
2 prior to Donna Laframboise speaking to
3 Louise Malenfant about her planned
article, do you
4 know whether or not Louise Malenfant
had any views
5 about the views that you had expressed
in your
6 book?
7
A Let's see now, the question is
whether I knew back
8 when we were working together, or . . .
9
Q At some point in time Louise
Malenfant had a
10 discussion with Donna Laframboise about
your book?
11
A M-hm.
12
Q I can't remember exactly when
that was, but I'm
13 wondering whether or not the topic of
your book, or
14 the subject matter contained within
your book, that
15 is, pornography, had ever been part of
a discussion
16
you had with Louise Malenfant?
17
A No. Pretty safe to say that it was never
discussed
18 between us. There wouldn't have been any reason,
19 and, to my knowledge, it wasn't until
January after
20 we had ceased communicating that she
learned about
21 the existence of the book.
22
Q I'll get back to that. You described a period of
23 detente and then said things were more
or less on
24
an even keel until the end
of the three-month
25 period.
Did things come to a head sometime at the
26 end of the three-month period?
27
A Yes. Yes, in several ways, and there were some
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1 incidents during the period as well
when she would
2 do things that were clearly, as I saw
it, contrary
3 to our understanding of working
together, and there
4 were some conflicts, but nothing
serious until
5 toward the end.
6 Again, I would feel much better to
review some
7
of the documents rather than take a chance on
8 getting important details wrong, but it
came down
9 to extreme insubordination and
unwillingness to
10 work in the way I would think a
reasonable person
11 would work, involving things like sort
of taking
12 over.
13 How do I put this? Let's see if I can give a
14 brief -- a brief account of one major
problem. We
15 had an understanding, just strictly oral,
before
16 she ever came that she could do some of
her own
17 kind of activist work while she was
here, just on
18 her own time, as long as she followed
my
19 instructions when doing the work for
me, and early
20 on I tried to make it clear to her that
this didn't
21 mean that she could just take the
people that I
22 sent to her and do whatever she wanted with
them
23 because it might conflict with the
plans that we
24 had in MERGE. And it was a gross violation of that
25 understanding that, toward the end,
that brought
26 the final break. Basically, what she did was to
27 take some brief write-ups, so some of
these
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1 people's horror stories having --
people who had
2 been having difficulties with Child
Welfare, and
3 took those to the local head of Child
Welfare,
4 presenting them as her own clients, she
called
5
them. She proceeded to make certain plans with
6 him, which, without consulting with me
and in
7 conflict with the plans that I had had
to do. When
8 I got these stories written up, the
idea was that
9 we were to have another meeting with
this
10 gentleman, that MERGE was to have a
meeting with
11 this gentleman and present some of
these stories.
12 Here she was doing it on her own, giving
it the
13 name of her own organization without my
permission
14 and knowledge, and without the
permission and
15 knowledge of the individuals themselves
even. I
16 found this outrageous in a number of
ways, and
17 that's what basically precipitated the
final
18 blow-up.
19
Q What was the name of her
organization?
20
A She called it Parents Helping
Parents. I always
21
put the word
"organization" in quotes, because
22 there is just her.
23
Q I see. It was not an organization so much as a
24 person operating under an umbrella
name?
25
A Something like that. Nothing that's registered
26 with the province or anything like
that, so . . .
27
Q How did you learn of her
approach to Child Welfare
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1 authorities?
2
A Oh, how did I learn that she
had done this?
3
Q Yes.
4
A She sent out some more emails
on it, and seemingly
5 quite oblivious to all of the
understandings we had
6 before, and when I -- when I challenged
her on it
7 became extremely hostile, and that was
about the
8 end of that.
9
Q When you say she became
extremely hostile, did she
10 deny that there was ever any oral
agreement that
11 existed along the lines that you had
earlier
12 described?
13
A Basically, yes.
14
Q And were the people that she
was dealing with at
15 MERGE upset about her approach to Child
Welfare
16 authorities?
17
A Some of them certainly
were. Some of them by that
18 point were working with her to such a
degree that
19 they were more on her side than on mine
when this
20 thing blew up. But certainly at least some of them
21 shared my concerns, and the majority, I
guess, of
22 the regular ones agreed with me.
23
Q At the end of this three-month
period when you
24 learned of this, did you do something
to formally
25 terminate your contractual relationship
with her?
26
A I guess it wasn't necessary to
do anything formal
27 because we'd never had a written
agreement in the
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1 first place, and the time that we
agreed on had
2 elapsed. I tried to -- I offered her another month
3 payment to try to finish up some of the
work she
4 had been doing because she had never
actually
5 finished any of the reports she had
written. She
6 had many of them started and -- but not
--
7 certainly not finished to my
satisfaction, and
8 probably most of them only preliminary,
even in her
9 own eyes. But so I was hoping for -- that we could
10 get along for another month somehow to
try to get
11 some of these completed, but she was
extremely
12 angry at that point, and so there was
no -- that
13 was the end of that.
14
Q Did she turn her work product
back over to you?
15
A Eventually, I guess, most of
it. She had been
16 giving me product as we went
along. Whether there
17 was material at the end that she kept,
I couldn't
18 say for sure. There were -- that's about all I can
19 say, I guess.
20
Q So at the end of November
2000, you had this
21 falling out. When was the next time you heard from
22 Louise Malenfant?
23
A There were -- well, as part of
the falling out
24 process, I guess you could say, I
attempted to make
25 some sort of arrangement
under which we could at
26 least coexist and maybe even cooperate
a little
27 bit, her with MERGE. I used some go-betweens in
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1 this regard. A woman who was sort of chair of the
2 Child Welfare group and who's a social
worker was
3 involved in trying to get some sort of
agreements
4 with Louise that she would not do
things -- she
5 would cooperate enough with MERGE so
that we
6 wouldn't be undermining each other and
this sort of
7 thing.
Those attempts to get some sort of a
8 detente, they didn't succeed
either. She would not
9 agree to anything. That went on for part of
10 December, and, again, that failed, and
I couldn't
11 give you any final dates on the last
attempt to
12 deal with her indirectly.
13
Q When did you first become
concerned that she might
14 try to gain influence or some measure
of control
15
over ECMAS?
16
A That was very early on. There was a public event
17 held by ECMAS that I think was in
September. It
18 was basically a kind of a, what's the
word I want,
19 a commemorative kind of event for a man
who had
20 killed himself. He had been -- was living out of
21 his car, driven there by, as we see it,
by very
22 unfair behavior by Maintenance
Enforcement, and I
23
can't go into details, I don't
know enough details,
24 but, anyway, this man killed himself,
and ECMAS
25 held something along the lines of a
candlelight
26 vigil, and she came to that event and
basically
27 tried to take over, stand up and be
running the
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1 event just all on her own, and . . .
2
Q Were you alarmed?
3
A Pardon?
4
Q Were you alarmed?
5
A To a degree, yes. I'd say it was one of many
6 events that made me and the others in
the group
7 worry about her behavior. Again, I wouldn't trust
8 myself on details, but I have them, I
have the
9 details written up, and so -- but the
bottom line
10 is this was one of many things that
made me very
11 concerned about her
behavior.
12
Q And how often would she attend
ECMAS events? You
13 started by describing one that occurred
in
14 September of 2000.
15
A There were two MERGE
events. Oh, the one I just
16 mentioned now?
17
Q Yes.
18
A Yes. The public, not a demonstration, but it was
19 a
. . .
20
Q A memorial?
21
A Some sort of a memorial event
is the best way, but
22 kind of a demonstration too, I
guess. So she
23 attended that one. She attended -- I'm partly
24 going now by things I read in her
emails since
25 then, but she attend the November ECMAS
monthly
26 general meeting. She attended, as I recall, just
27 one ECMAS support group meeting, the
one I took her
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1 to very early on. I suspect she was at least -- at
2 at least one more ECMAS monthly
meeting, October I
3 would -- I would guess, but she did not
attend a
4 lot of meetings for ECMAS or MERGE.
5
Q And what was it that led you
to conclude that she
6 was in cahoots with [Source A]?
7
A I didn't conclude it until the
annual general
8 meeting in March. I believe I've written on this
9 already where it was several people
suspected it
10 because of some coincidental things
that were
11 happening, and I wasn't personally
concerned about
12 that very much. I was concerned about her possibly
13 trying to get on the board of
ECMAS. But it was
14 suspected, as I say, before the
meeting. But at
15 the meeting, [Source A] who had no
board position,
16 who had no -- although he's a strange
guy in some
17 ways, he thought he did have a board
position
18 because he was on a committee. Anyway, he passed
19 out these ballots that had been typed
in advance to
20 people to vote with, and this was
subsequent to
21 Louise herself asking for a motion that
the
22 election be held by secret ballot, and
that really
23 clicked with me. Louise wants the motion by secret
24 ballot. [Source A] passes out these
ballots that
25 had been typed in advance. It seemed pretty clear
26 at that point that they were, to some
degree at
27 least, working together. Before that point, I
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1 didn't have any strong feelings on the
subject.
2 And then since then, of course, I've
seen all of
3 these documents that allude to their
cooperation.
4
Q At some point, Louise
Malenfant obviously became
5 aware of your book and expressed
concern about the
6 views that she thought you had
expressed in the
7 book; is that fair?
8
A That's evident from the emails
that have been put
9 in production.
10
Q And do you also agree that
Louise Malenfant had a
11 different opinion regarding the meaning
of aspects
12 of your book than you had, especially
with respect
13 to the topic of sex and young people?
14
A I would say that's subject to
a certain rather
15 subjective qualification. I think that her
16 interpretation of my book was very
heavily colored
17 by her anger that she already had at
me. Whether
18 she would have made the claims she made
about the
19 contents of my book in the absence of
that conflict
20 is not at all clear to me. I hope that's a clear
21 enough answer.
22
Q Well, you don't have any
insight into her thought
23 process. You're speculating?
24
A I'm speculating either
way. She certainly voiced
25 many angry comments about the contents
of the book,
26 that's true.
27
Q Prior to publication of the
article in question in
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1 the National Post, what did you know
about
2 Louise Malenfant's views with respect
to the
3 appropriateness of your involvement
with ECMAS
4 based on her assessment of the content
of your
5 book?
6
A The way it happened -- I'll
get the time line
7 correct here. In February of 2001, she sent an
8 angry email about me to Bob Bouvier in
which she
9 alluded to some dark secrets that I
had, not saying
10 what they were.
11 In a subsequent email, we know
that she
12 followed up with her -- as I'm
referring now, and
13 we could check this by looking at the
emails --
14
Q Yes.
15
A -- but in a subsequent email,
she filled it out by
16 talking about my alleged ideas about --
in fact,
17 saying flat out that I felt that taboos
against
18 child pornography and adult/child sex
should be
19 eliminated; this, again, in an email to
20 Mr. Bouvier. He did not share that email with me
21 until this whole matter blew up a month
later. I
22 think he was quite disgusted with her
and didn't
23 want to even bother me with it. That's -- sorry,
24 I'm speculating, of course, but, in any
case, he
25 did not share the email with me, and so
it wasn't
26 until the following month after the
annual general
27 meeting that I heard about her
objection to my
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1 book.
2
Q All right. So she expressed the concern to him
3 long before you ever knew about it?
4
A That's a month before,
roughly, yes.
5
Q And prior to the publication
of the article, did
6 you have any direct discussion or email
interaction
7 with Louise Malenfant about the views
expressed in
8 your book?
9
A I've never had any discussion
with her.
10
Q Were you aware that Louise
Malenfant appeared on
11 the Leslie Primeau radio program on
April 5th,
12 2001?
13
A Dates I'm not sure about. I certainly remember her
14 appearing on that show, yes.
15
Q Were you listening to that
radio program?
16
A In retrospect, I don't
recall. What I do know is
17 that I was given a tape of it
subsequently and
18 heard that, but I just don't remember whether
I
19 actually heard it myself. I suspect I did not, but
20 I can't say.
21
Q Who gave you the tape?
22
A I'm not even certain of
this. The person who often
23 tapes such things and gives them to me
is a man
24 named Bill Miller. I think I got it from him.
25
Q Who is Bill Miller?
26
A Bill Miller is a long-time
member of ECMAS and
27 MERGE, at one time on the MERGE board,
and last
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1 year or so he switched over to become a
member of
2 the ECMAS board, a gentleman with
problems of false
3 accusation of child sex abuse in his
history, which
4 is why his long association with us.
5
Q Did you at some point contact
the radio station
6 that aired the Leslie Primeau program
to give a
7 response to the comments of Louise
Malenfant?
8
A No, I'm sure I did not.
9
Q So you didn't provide any type
of rebuttal, or
10 response, or any answer to what she had
said on the
11 program?
12
A That's correct.
13
Q Did she criticize you on that
program?
14
A She certainly did. I believe, again, that you have
15 the tape and the transcript, so we
could more
16 accurately consult that than consult my
memory on
17 it.
18
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
19
Q MR. KOZAK: I'm going to refer to a few
20 documents in your production, and I'll
just ask you
21 a few questions about those. Do you have document
22 71 there?
23
MR. BROWN: That
would be?
24 MR. KOZAK: It's an email exchange between
25 Alan Soble and Dr. Christensen.
26
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
27
Q MR. KOZAK: I'm looking at a document
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1 marked in your production as document
71. At the
2 top of the document appear the words
Alan Soble,
3 11:01 a.m. Do you see that document.
4
A Yes.
5
Q Now, I've read this document,
and it appears that
6 Mr. Soble was asking you to contribute
an article
7 to the Encyclopedia of the Philosophy of
Sex, and,
8 ultimately, you did declined to make
that
9 contribution because of reasons related
to this
10 lawsuit. Is that accurate?
11
A That's accurate.
12
Q Is it fair to say that you did
not want your
13 contribution to have a negative impact
on the
14 encyclopedia because of your perception
that there
15 had been negative things associated
with this
16 lawsuit? Is that --
17
A As I see it, I have -- my name
has been seriously
18 smeared, and others could be affected
by that; not
19 immediately, one would expect, but if
the
20 publication came out, and then word got
out,
21 including to Canada, they would
say: Oh, well, you
22 know about him. This is the sort of concern that I
23 had, yes.
24
Q All right. There's no doubt though that at the
25 time that Mr. Soble made this request
or invitation
26 for you to contribute to this
encyclopedia, it must
27 have evidenced to you that your
reputation was
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1 still in high esteem for that request
to be made?
2
A Of course, and that is a major
reason for my
3 including this in our production, to
show that I
4 have had a good reputation for my work,
in
5 particular in regard to my book, that's
correct.
6
Q Okay. Now, are you familiar with any of the other
7
people who were asked to
contribute to the
8 encyclopedia?
9
A As it turns out, I didn't
pursue it further, and so
10 I didn't find out who the other
contributors were
11 to be.
12 Q I
see. If you could turn to document 73,
please.
13 That is a series of letters with
members of the
14 Court of Queen's Bench.
15 The first page of document 73 that
I have is a
16 letter dated January 4th, 2001, to The
Honorable
17 Madam Justice Veit. Do you have that document in
18 front of you?
19
A Yes.
20
Q Now, I have gone through these
documents, and I
21
note in your letter dated
March 19th, 2001, to the
22 Chief Justice, you begin your letter by
saying:
23 "I was pleased to receive
your
24 letter of January 26th in response
25 to mine of January 4th to Madam
26 Justice Veit."
27
A M-hm.
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1
Q Do you see that letter?
2
A Right.
3
Q I don't have the Chief
Justice's letter of January
4 26th.
5
A It's not in our pack either.
6
MR. BROWN: Is it out
order maybe?
7
A That's what I was wondering,
but I suspect he's
8 right.
9
MR. BROWN: Not
there.
10
A I'm afraid that I don't
remember well enough in
11 putting this all together to recall why
that might
12 not be here. It looks as if I simply misplaced it
13 after writing this letter to him, but
I'm not even
14 remembering well enough now to be sure
that that's
15 why it's not here. It certainly should be here, if
16 I had it, so . . .
17
Q MR. KOZAK: Well, would it refresh your
18 memory if I reminded you that the
letter of March
19 19th, 2001, which you've written in
response to the
20 Chief Justice's letter of January the
26th, makes
21 it clear that he was suggesting that
you should
22 discuss issues with Madam Justice
Trussler? Is
23
that consistent with your
memory of his response to
24 your letter?
25
A It is indeed.
26
Q Can you remember any other
details from the January
27 26th letter from the Chief Justice?
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1
A Further details are suggested
by this response as
2 well in his general concerns about members
of the
3 public dealing with the judiciary, and
I was
4 writing to allay some of those
concerns, if I
5 could, and also taking the opportunity
to ask for a
6 meeting with him.
7 Q
Yes.
8
A But I certainly don't recall
any real detail from
9 the letter that he's addressing.
10
Q I wonder if I could ask you to
undertake a careful
11 search of your records to see if can
you locate a
12 copy of the January 26th letter from
the
13 Chief Justice?
14
A Yes, I certainly will.
15
Q If you locate it, can you,
please, provide me with
16 a copy through your counsel?
17
A Yes.
18
MR. BROWN: I suspect
a fairly thorough
19 search was done at the time we put this
together
20 and couldn't find it.
21
A Yes.
22 MR. BROWN: So I suspect the prospects are
23 slim, but we'll look again.
24
A Yes.
25
MR. KOZAK: Well,
thank you for your
26 efforts. I know that you'll make a diligent
27 search.
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1 UNDERTAKING NO.
18:
2 PROVIDE COPY OF THE JANUARY 26TH, 2001,
LETTER
3 FROM THE CHIEF JUSTICE.
4
Q MR. KOZAK: The reason I'm asking about it
5 is because when we last got together
and I had an
6 opportunity to ask you some questions
about the
7 impact that this article has had, one
of the things
8 you referred to was the letter from the
9 Chief Justice, which is also part of
your document
10 73, which was written on April the
26th, 2001, and
11 I just wondered if any of the concerns
expressed by
12 the Chief Justice in the missing letter
of January
13 the 26th relate to his letter of April
the 26th,
14 2001, where you had planned a meeting
with him and
15 he then wrote to say: In light of the article, I'm
16 no longer willing to meet with you?
17
A I can be quite certain that
the answer is negative.
18 When he wrote back to me, remember, it
was in
19 response to a letter I had written to
Justice Veit.
20
Q Yes.
21
A His purpose in writing back
was to say: Well, it's
22 really not appropriate for you to be dealing
with
23 her on a matter like this, and though
you could be
24 talking to Justice Trussler, and he
also expressed
25 general concerns about the public
having the wrong
26 kind of contact with the
judiciary. Those were the
27 items that he was concerned about.
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1 If your question is whether he
knew anything
2 about my book, I'm certain that there
was nothing
3 like that in his first letter.
4
Q No, and, you know, I may be
missing the point
5 altogether, but your response to the
missing letter
6 deals with such topics as whether or
not generally
7 it's inappropriate for members of
public to meet
8 with the judiciary.
9
A Right.
10
Q And also, obviously, a concern
that he would have
11 raised about whether you were lobbying
the
12 judiciary on a particular issue. You specifically
13 refer to that in your response to
him. One of your
14 paragraphs begins:
15 "To begin, I worry that you
may have
16 read too much into my use of the
17 word "lobby."
18 And then you go on to say:
19 "It can cover a large range
of
20 activities, both legitimate and
21 questionable."
22 I want to know, and the reason I want
to see the
23 letter is because he had obviously
expressed some
24 concerns about the propriety of that,
which you
25 attempted to address in your
letter. I'm wondering
26 if the publication of the article
provoked a
27 renewed concern in his mind about the
propriety of
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1 a meeting?
2
A Well, not a renewed concern of
the original grounds
3 I wouldn't think. Certainly there's -- his
4 cancellation of the meeting is couched
in very
5 brief sentences.
6
Q Yes.
7 A
But the fact that he was willing to give me the
8 meeting after I explained my purpose
more clearly
9 would seem, in my mind, to say that his
original
10 concerns were allayed, and this was
something brand
11 new.
12
Q All right. I wonder if, as part of -- well, as a
13 separate undertaking, if your search
efforts fail
14 to locate a copy of the record, I
wonder if you
15 could make a request for a copy of the
letter from
16 the Chief Justice through your counsel?
17
A I see no problem with that.
18
Q All right. Thank you.
19 UNDERTAKING NO. 19:
20 IF DR. CHRISTENSEN IS UNABLE TO LOCATE
HIS COPY OF
21 THE JANUARY 26TH, 2001, LETTER FROM THE
CHIEF
22 JUSTICE, MAKE A REQUEST FOR A COPY OF
THE LETTER
23 FROM THE CHIEF JUSTICE THROUGH COUNSEL.
24
Q MR. KOZAK: Document 74, a letter from you
25 to Mr. Conrad Black.
26
MR. BROWN: Is this
an email or a letter?
27
MR. KOZAK: It's a
letter. It looks like
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1 that.
2
A Let's -- we can reach over and
look at that.
3
Q MR. KOZAK: I think document 74 is
4 actually a two-page document. One is a letter from
5 Dr. Christensen to Mr. Black, and the
second is a
6 letter from Hollinger to Dr.
Christensen. This
7
first document, your letter,
doesn't appear to be
8 dated.
Do you recall writing that letter?
9
A Yes, I do.
10
Q Now, in the letter you refer
to, I think, earlier
11 correspondence, and you refer to the
issue of
12 "Sexist feminist cabal at the
Edmonton Journal."
13 What is that a reference to?
14
A Back when he first took over
Southam, I got in
15 touch with him to express my concerns
about what I
16 see as a long history of ideology
influencing
17 coverage of the news at the Edmonton
Journal. He
18 responded to me at that time saying it
was somewhat
19 inappropriate for him to get directly
involved in
20 the running of the paper, but he turned
my letter
21 and my concerns over to the editor at
that time to
22 deal with.
23 I was impressed that he would send
me a
24 personally signed letter, showing
enough concern in
25 my concerns that he would answer at
all, and, on
26 that basis, thought that it might be
worthwhile to
27 approach him with this problem with the
Post.
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1
Q It wasn't your impression that
he took any direct
2 action other than to forward your
letter and the
3 concern you expressed in it to the
editor of the
4 day?
5
A No, no action, no. He seemed -- as I remember the
6 exchange, he seemed to be sympathetic
and, you
7 know, trying to be helpful, but that
was the end of
8 it.
9
Q Do you recall if the editor of
the day was
10 Linda Hughes?
11
A No. No.
She was the publisher at that point.
The
12 editor is not there now. I may remember his name,
13 if it's spoken, but I don't recall at
the moment.
14
Q Steve Hume?
15
A Oh, no, no. That was long, long ago. The name is
16 not coming back to me. It wouldn't be hard to
17 reconstruct if one --
18
Q Giles Gherson?
19
A Now, that could be the one.
20
MR. BROWN: He came
in, I think, fairly
21 shortly after the newspaper was taken
over.
22
A Yes, that could be.
23
Q MR. KOZAK: Murdock Davis?
24
A No, not -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry, no, I just -- I
25 just don't recall.
26
Q All right.
27
MR. BROWN: We could
presumably undertake
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1 to find that note for you. I mean, it would be a
2 matter of public record. We've got the date. No,
3 we don't have a date, do we?
4
A No.
5
MR. BROWN: Do we
have a date on his
6 letter, his reply?
7
A Hollinger replies. This was all 2001, so . . .
8
Q MR. KOZAK: They refer to your letter of
9 May 3rd, 2001. I don't know where they get that
10 date, but their letter
is dated May 11th, so . . .
11
A Yes, the earlier contact that
I was alluding to in
12 my letter of May 3rd is an uncertain
date now. I
13 don't know whether I could find the
correspondence
14 anymore.
15
Q I don't think it's important.
16
A But, in any case, it was about
the time that
17 Conrad Black took over Southam, and so
the editor,
18 at that point, of the Journal would be
not
19 difficult to track down if you found it
important.
20
Q One of your documents, which
is document number 90,
21 appears to be an article from the Globe
and Mail,
22 dated Friday, August 14th, 1987.
23
MR. BROWN: I'm not
in the right bundle.
24
Q MR. KOZAK: You can look at my copy. That
25 is an article written by you, I assume,
about
26 pornography and proposed legislation;
is it not?
27
A That's correct.
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1
Q And in that you expressed
concerns you had about
2 the effect of proposed legislation as
it related to
3 pornography and obscenity?
4
A Right.
5
Q And is it fair to characterize
your concern as
6 being that the legislation was overly
broad and too
7 far reaching?
8
A Very much so.
9
Q And there's a passage in the
paragraph in the
10 middle of the page that reads:
11 "Furthermore, the bill holds
that
12 any matter or commercial
13 communication that incites,
14 promotes, encourages, or advocates
15 sexual activity by people under
18,
16 even masturbation or sex with
peers,
17 is considered criminal."
18 You were expressing the viewpoint that
that was a
19 wrong approach to criminal law, were
you not?
20
A That's fair to say.
21
Q And that is consistent with
many of the views
22 expressed in your book, is it not?
23
A It certainly is, yes. If you take that literally,
24 all sorts of things would be
criminalized, sex
25 education, and so on.
26
Q Yes.
27
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
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1
Q MR. KOZAK: Document 96, is, I believe,
2 handwritten notes from a support group
meeting
3 dated January 2nd, 2001, and I think
they go on for
4 some length to meetings up to and
including July
5 17th, 2001. Is that your handwriting?
6
A Yes, such as it is.
7
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
8
Q MR. KOZAK: Dr. Christensen, document 96,
9 your handwritten minutes or notes taken
from
10 support group meetings, I'm going to
ask you to
11 dictate those notes, because,
unfortunately, I can
12 only read the odd word or two, and I want
you to
13 undertake to provide me with a
transcript of these
14 handwritten notes and provide that to
me through
15 your lawyer. I think that's the more efficient way
16 of doing it, rather than asking you to
sit here and
17 read the notes to the court reporter.
18
A M-hm.
19
Q So will you give me that
undertaking?
20
A In the first instance, to
dictate onto a recording
21
tape, I suppose?
22
Q You can do it in whatever way
you find most
23 efficient. I am only interested in the end
24 product, which is a typed version of
these notes,
25 and so whether you dictate it and have
it
26 transcribed or whether you transcribe
it yourself
27 would --
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1
MR. BROWN: He's
blacked out the names of
2 the individuals, and is that okay?
3
A They're promised anonymity
when they go to the
4 meetings, so . . .
5
MR. KOZAK: Yes. I see that there are
6 some names here that are not blacked
out.
7
MR. BROWN: First
names I think is --
8 first names he left in I think is the
way we --
9
A Unless they were unusual first
names, then I might
10 have blacked out the first name as
well.
11
Q MR. KOZAK: Yes.
Well, that's acceptable.
12 If you can just put in some symbol to
show that
13 these notes and your transcript have
been
14 redacted --
15
A M-hm.
16
Q -- to delete the names of
people who were promised
17 anonymity, that would be
acceptable. So do I have
18 your undertaking there?
19
A Yes.
20
Q Thank you.
21 UNDERTAKING NO.
20:
22 PROVIDE A TYPEWRITTEN COPY OF DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S
23 HANDWRITTEN MINUTES OR NOTES TAKEN FROM
SUPPORT
24 GROUP MEETINGS.
25 (DOCUMENT 96 IN THE PLAINTIFF'S
PRODUCTION)
26
Q MR. KOZAK: Now, I had questions about
27 some other documents, but I think we
now have them,
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1 so I'll save those for tomorrow
morning. It may be
2 that I won't have to ask those
questions.
3 I want to ask a few questions
about answers to
4 undertakings that you've provided
through your
5 lawyer.
6
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
7
Q MR. KOZAK: At a previous Examination for
8 Discovery, I had asked you to provide
articles,
9 book reviews, refereed papers, and
invited papers
10 on sexuality that you had listed in
Exhibit 3,
11 which is one version of your curriculum
vitae, and
12 you enclosed a number of those articles
in your
13 response to that undertaking sent to me
on November
14 the 5th, 2003, I believe, or received
on that date.
15 One of the articles, which is entitled
"Masculism" --
16
A M-hm.
17
Q -- from the Oxford Companion
to Philosophy, do you
18 think that your views on feminism are
19 controversial?
20
A We've had a problem before
with -- to me, it's a
21 very vague word,
"controversial."
22
Q Well, let me perhaps put that
into context, because
23 you may have a concern, or your counsel
may have a
24 concern about the relevance of it. We had a
25 significant discussion last time about
the use of
26 the word
"controversial." My intended
meaning of
27 that word in the context of this
question is, is
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1 there a wide and divergent range of
opinions, and
2 would your opinion be on one end or the
other end
3 of that spectrum? That's what I'm really using the
4 word controversial to connote.
5
MR. BROWN: Part of
your definition would
6 include "extreme," in the
sense that you said it's
7 on one end or the other of the
spectrum?
8
Q MR. KOZAK: Yes.
Would it be viewed that
9 way?
10
A I don't believe so. I might point out, for one
11 thing, that in these kinds of
discussions I always
12 try to distinguish carefully between
feminism
13 per se, or feminism in general, and
what I refer to
14 always as sexist feminist because the
word
15 "feminist" itself is a rather
vague word.
16
Q Yes.
17
A Like the word
"Christian." And with what I
18 understand feminism per se to be, which
is just a
19
concern that women have been
discriminated against
20 historically, and that that should be
stopped, I am
21 a feminist. I believe I say that in the article
22 that you allude to.
23
Q Yes.
24
A But many of those who have
labeled themselves
25 feminist, as I see it, have not been
egalitarians.
26 They have been extreme, as I see it,
and so I see
27 myself as opposing a lot of what I see
them as
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1 doing.
2 Now, where does this put me on the
spectrum?
3 I'm inclined to think that in Canada my
views are
4 quite central, and I suspect that
that's -- I would
5 say that that's true in this case as
well. My
6 views on feminism as fundamentally a good
idea
7 which has sometimes been taken to
extreme. Does
8 that help at all?
9
Q Yes. Your criticism is directed toward those
10 people who profess to espouse feminist
views under
11 the guise of attacking men; is that
fair?
12
A Well, being unfair in whatever
way, but certainly
13 there's a lot of antimale sentiment
among the
14 people that I label sexist feminist.
15
Q One of the quotes from that article of yours
is:
16 "Many contemporary feminists
17 consider men to be morally and
even
18 intellectually inferior by virtue
of
19 being raised in an oppressor class
20 or even by nature."
21 Do you recall making that statement?
22
A I don't recall it, but it
certainly sounds like
23 something I would say.
24
Q And is that a view that you
still hold today?
25
A Oh, yes. When I say "many," of course,
that's a
26 somewhat vague term, but when you look
at the
27 extensive literature on the subject,
yes, you will
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1 find many women saying -- many women in
the -- in
2 the name of feminism saying these things.
3
Q Your fourth undertaking was to
provide copies of
4 your correspondence both to and from
Dr. Diamond
5 regarding issues raised in this
lawsuit, and the
6 emails that you enclosed, I think there
were four
7 emails.
I wanted to know if there were other
8 emails that were not included in your
answer to
9 that undertaking between you and Dr.
Diamond? I
10 should tell you that the original
undertaking was
11 taken under advisement.
12
A Yes.
13
Q So if you want to consider
that and discuss it with
14 your lawyer before you answer that,
that's fine
15
with me. I just wasn't certain from the answer as
16 to whether there were only four or
whether there
17 were others that you objected to
produce for some
18 reason.
19
A Oh, I see. My intention was to produce them all.
20 My lawyer at that time was concerned
about whether
21 this would be somewhat privileged
because of its
22 connection to the lawsuit, but he
dropped that
23 concern, I guess, but, again, my intention was
to
24 give him all of the -- all of those,
and I believe
25 I did give him all of them.
26
Q All right. Okay.
If it turns out that your memory
27
is inaccurate, if there were
other emails, can you
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1 bring that to your lawyer's attention?
2 A I
will certainly check on that again.
3 UNDERTAKING NO.
21:
4 FURTHER TO UNDERTAKING NUMBER 4, WHICH
WAS TAKEN
5 UNDER ADVISEMENT, ADVISE IF THERE ARE
OTHER EMAILS
6
NOT PRODUCED REGARDING DR. CHRISTENSEN'S
7 CORRESPONDENCE BOTH TO AND FROM DR.
DIAMOND WITH
8 RESPECT TO ISSUES RAISED IN THIS
LAWSUIT.
9
Q MR. KOZAK: One of the emails from
10
Dr. Diamond, that of July
31st, 2003, to you, says:
11 "Two of my porn papers are
available
12 on my website."
13 Do you know whether or not you accessed
those
14 papers?
15 A
I'm fairly sure I did not. I'm
always so busy that
16 things like this are likely to be seen
as I have no
17 time for, so I -- but I'm -- I cannot
say with
18 certainty that I did not. It's just that I would
19 usually ignore something that wasn't
immediately
20 important.
21
Q All right. The fifth undertaking was to advise
22 when you first became an official
member of ECMAS,
23 and you've enclosed membership receipts
for '95,
24 '96, '97, '98, and 2001. So I take it from that
25 that you first became an official
member in 1995?
26
A That is evidently the case.
27
Q And you're basing that answer
based on your search
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1 for membership receipts?
2
A Correct. I might add that I got these receipts --
3 even though I had some of my own
records, I got
4 them from the person who was acting
secretary for
5 ECMAS, from their book, so that makes
it a little
6 more sure that that was the first
receipt.
7
MR. KOZAK: I think
I'm going to stop
8 there rather than start on a new topic.
9
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
10
11
(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 P.M., 17TH FEBRUARY, 2005)
12
(PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 9:30 A.M., 18TH FEBRUARY, 2005).
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
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1
FERREL MARVIN CHRISTENSEN, PREVIOUSLY AFFIRMED,
2 EXAMINED BY MR. EASTWOOD, AT 9:30 A.M.:
3
Q Dr. Christensen, you'll
acknowledge that you have
4 affirmed that you will tell the truth
in these
5 proceedings?
6
A That's right.
7
Q It's your intention to do so
today?
8
A Indeed.
9
Q Thank you. I'd like to look first at a few
10 documents that you've produced in your
Affidavit of
11 Records and ask some questions
regarding those.
12 The first one is in a document
identified as
13 document 11.2.
14
MR. BROWN: This is
page 2 of an email
15 from Robert G. J. Bouvier?
16
MR. EASTWOOD: That's
correct.
17
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Now, the second full paragraph
18 there starts with the words:
19 "I have received numerous
calls
20 recently asking why I did not let
21 the organization deal with these
22 problems internally rather than go
23 public with my concerns. The answer
24 is that I tried repeatedly to convey
25 my concerns to the leadership of
26 ECMAS, and the response of the
group
27 was to allow Adams to stand as
vice
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1 president and to vote him into
that
2 office."
3 Now, are you aware, Dr.
Christensen, of any
4 occasions when Louise Malenfant would
have brought
5 her concerns to the attention of ECMAS?
6
A Again, if I may, I've written
about this before,
7 and so my answer will be much of what
I've said.
8 In fact, after becoming aware of this
claim of
9 hers, fairly early on in the process
we're talking
10 about, I inquired around to find out
what had been
11 said in that regard, and the only thing
that I
12 could discover was the email that has
been alluded
13 to already that she sent to Mr. Bouvier
where she
14 initially just alluded darkly to some
misbehavior
15 on my part; and when he responded to her
by email,
16 she followed up by saying that my book
was
17 arguing -- or was trying -- was wanting
to get
18 societal taboos against child
pornography and child
19 sex abuse removed.
20 Q
All right.
21
A That was the email we
mentioned yesterday.
22 In the course of that email, she
also briefly
23 mentioned [Tim] Adams and his
disbarment. That's
24 the only thing that I was able to
discover of
25 her -- by asking around, of her
mentioning these
26 issues to anybody, before the annual
general
27 meeting. So to the best of my knowledge, the --
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1 this is the sort of -- sort of the
second time she
2 said anything to the group.
3
Q All right.
4
A She may have said something to
Mr. Laberge in
5 Calgary; but as far as the local ECMAS
group, I
6 think there -- I believe there was only
the one
7 time.
8
Q When you advised that to your
knowledge there was
9 only this one occasion, does that
include not just
10 email communications but perhaps your
knowledge of
11 any telephone conversations or personal
12
conversations she might have
had?
13
A That's correct.
14
Q All right.
15
A I asked Mr. Bouvier and a few
other people, and
16 that's all I could come up with.
17
Q Right. And in that same email document that's
18 identified or numbered as 11.2, Louise
Malenfant
19 states:
20 "I was also asked not to
discuss the
21 issues further with them."
22
Do you know, Dr. Christensen,
are you aware who
23 asked this to Louise Malenfant?
24
A I do not. That's a mystery to me. I know that I
25 did not make any such request. I believe, from
26 what he told me, the president did not make
any
27 such request. He did ask her not to make such a
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1 fuss about things. That's all I can say.
2
Q All right. I'd like to turn to document number
3 12.2.
4
A Okay.
5
Q Now, this document is dated
March 22nd, 2001, and
6 it's a letter to ECMAS Edmonton written
on behalf
7 of the Board of Directors of ECMAS
Calgary, and at
8 the bottom is the name Michael Laberge,
President,
9 ECMAS Calgary.
10 First of all, can you advise me
who were the
11 board members of ECMAS Calgary at the
time this
12 letter was written?
13
A Not other than Marina
Forbister and Mike Laberge.
14 There are some other names that I
probably would
15 recognize but only from having seen
documents of
16 this type earlier.
17
Q Okay.
18
A And I wouldn't -- I don't
recall those names now.
19
Q So the two persons you've
mentioned,
20 Marina Forbister and Mike Laberge, were
the only
21 two members of the ECMAS Board of
Directors that
22 you were acquainted with; is that
correct?
23
A In Calgary, yes, that's
correct.
24
Q In Calgary. But the Edmonton -- the Calgary Board
25 of Directors of ECMAS is larger than
just those two
26 persons; is that correct?
27
A That's my understanding. I recall some document or
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1 other, I think probably an email, with
the names of
2 a couple other people that I took to be
on their
3 board, but I have never gotten any real
knowledge
4 of how many were on the board, who they
all were.
5 I just noticed those names at one
point.
6
Q What would be your knowledge
of what would be the
7 approximate size of the board of ECMAS
when this
8 letter was written in early 2001?
9
A I really couldn't guess.
10
Q What did you know about ECMAS
Calgary at the time
11 in March 2001 as an organization?
12
A Not a great deal. There had not been the amount of
13 contact between the two branches that
there ought
14 to have been for quite sometime, and my
knowledge
15 results from two or three meetings with
Mike and
16 Marina on different occasions. So it was extensive
17 enough in talking to them and from
seeing their --
18 some of their writings to feel that
they were very
19 competent people and to get a little
sense of what
20 they were like, but not a huge
amount. I did not
21 know them well, but I certainly knew
them.
22
Q Were there -- was there an
ongoing relationship
23 between ECMAS Calgary and ECMAS
Edmonton?
24
A Very spotty, and more spotty
and more sparsely over
25 time, as I recall. The -- that's why -- you know,
26 I mean, I'm not sure what to say. There's -- maybe
27 I should stop there.
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1
Q Okay. Were you aware in 2001 of the reputation of
2 Calgary ECMAS?
3
A Reputation. I guess --
4
MR. BROWN: I think
that may need more
5 clarification.
6
MR. EASTWOOD: Sure.
7
MR. BROWN: Just
partly in terms of who --
8 reputation among whom, and that kind of
thing.
9
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Were you aware that there were
10 some people who had the view, in 2001,
that Calgary
11 ECMAS was an ECMAS chapter that had a
good
12 reputation, a reputation for doing good
work?
13
A I would hope they did, but
perhaps you're alluding
14 to certain statements made by Ms.
Malenfant again.
15 In her rhetoric, she has claimed that
Calgary ECMAS
16 had a wonderful reputation and Edmonton
ECMAS
17 didn't, or didn't have much. I think that these
18 are things that she has made up. But, again,
19 unless you're asking about that, I'm
not really
20 following the question.
21
Q Let me follow up on that. With respect to those
22 comments that you referred to that
Louise Malenfant
23 made, do you agree or disagree with
those comments?
24
A Oh, I certainly disagree.
25
Q Why do you disagree?
26
A The things that the two groups
were doing were
27 quite similar. They were both very good, and I am
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1 certainly aware that Louise Malenfant
was not in
2 any position to really know what either
group's
3 reputations were because she had been
in the
4 province such a short time. I believe she was
5 simply making it up to suit her current
needs.
6
Q Okay. So you would -- am I correct in
7 understanding you that, as far as
you're aware, the
8 only person who might have had or
stated the
9 opinions that Calgary ECMAS had a good
reputation,
10 in 2001, was Louise Malenfant?
11
A Well, this is -- I'm aware of
her saying -- making
12 some invidious comparisons. That's -- I'm guessing
13 that that's where your question is
coming from.
14 But as far as I know, the two groups
had good
15 reputations in their respective cities.
16
Q But were there other people
that, aside from
17 Louise Malenfant, that you knew had
made comments
18 or stated opinions that Calgary ECMAS
had a good
19 reputation?
20
A Oh, I don't know any such
person.
21
Q Now, earlier you stated that
the persons that you
22 did have involvement with from Calgary
ECMAS were
23 credible people, referring to Mike
Laberge and
24 Marina Forbister?
25
A Yes, both competent people.
26
Q And yet, in your view,
obviously, the role that
27 Calgary ECMAS ended up taking with
respect to the
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1 controversy surrounding your
involvement with ECMAS
2 and [Tim] Adams' involvement with ECMAS
was not
3 appropriate?
4
A I'd need to divide that question,
I think.
5
Q All right.
6
A If I may.
7
Q Yes.
8
A I could do it quite
briefly. I think it would have
9 been quite understandable had they said
to us on
10 this occasion: This -- we don't know what's going
11 on up there. We see that it could hurt us very
12 badly, and so we're going to distance
ourselves
13 from you, and do it by resigning, if
necessary.
14 That I could have understood. This was -- there's
15 very serious allegations being made,
and people
16 could get hurt by being caught in the
middle. So
17 if they had simply stepped back away from
ECMAS
18 Edmonton, I would not have blamed
them. What I do
19 blame them for is what they did in this
letter in
20 basically saying that Ms. Malenfant and
21 Ms. Laframboise are telling the truth
about
22 Christensen, and we demand that you act
on that.
23 They had no grounds, no right to do
what they did
24 in that regard, and that's why I lost a
great deal
25 of respect for them in that respect.
26
Q As far as you know, the sole
cause of their action,
27 in terms of sending the March 22nd,
2001, letter,
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1 and subsequently resigning en masse,
the sole cause
2 of those actions, as far as you know,
is the
3 information they received from Louise
Malenfant and
4 Donna Laframboise?
5
A That's correct.
6
Q Do you have any -- you have no
knowledge then, same
7 question, I guess, no knowledge then of
any other
8 factors that might have led them to
take those
9 steps?
10
A That's correct. They themselves admitted, I
11 believe, that they had never seen the
book or heard
12 of it before.
13
Q But there was no, as far as
you know, animosity or
14 difficulties between the groups
otherwise?
15
A Oh, well, if I can divide that
question.
16
Q Sure.
17
A No animosity toward me. We had a good rapport, I
18
felt, even though it was
infrequent. I would have
19 to say, when you mentioned between the
groups, I
20 believe, this is somewhat subjective,
but there
21 were reasons that they were somewhat
dissatisfied
22 with their subordinate role vis-à-vis
the Edmonton
23 group.
It was the Edmonton group that had the
24 status as a society, and ECMAS Calgary
was sort of
25 dependent on that, and their -- I think
they would
26 have liked more freedom, the sort of
freedom that
27 would arise from being fully
independent, having
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1 their own -- their own society status,
and hence
2 not having to get our permission for
things that
3 they might do. As I say, I have a little bit of
4 reason to suspect that. One of the reasons being
5 that -- the fact that they were not in
as good of
6 contact with us as they really should
have been, as
7 I see it. I hope that helps.
8
Q Thank you. I'd like you to turn to document 20.1.
9 This is an email from yourself to
the
10 National Post, dated March 25, 2001, a
without
11 prejudice letter to Kenneth White, and
attached to
12 the letter is an article that you have
written,
13 which is titled "Moral Fervor
Without Accurate
14 Knowledge Does Evil;" is that
correct?
15
A A proposed article, that's
correct.
16 Q
Thank you. Does that article
contain any
17 condemnation of adult/child sexual
relationships?
18
A Any condemnation?
19
MR. BROWN: You may
want to read it over
20 just so you can answer.
21
Q MR. EASTWOOD: And if you want to do it by
22 way of undertaking, that's fine too.
23
A That shouldn't be
necessary. I reread it fairly
24 recently. I speak in there of harms from
25 adult/child sexual contact, if that
satisfies your
26 question of condemnation, but that
certainly was
27 not my major focus in the article.
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1
Q When you say you're speaking
of the harms that
2 result from adult/child sexual
relationships, can
3 you identify the specific passage
you're referring
4 to there?
5
A There's a paragraph that
begins: But what if child
6 sex abuse . . .
7
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
8
A We could look at the paragraph
that begins: A
9 couple of years ago.
10
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Okay.
11
A Close to the bottom.
12 "A couple of years ago, a
massive
13 meta-analysis of studies of child
14 sex abuse led to the conclusion
that
15 physical and emotional abuse are
far
16 more psychologically harmful to
17 children than sex abuse per se,
that
18 the former account for most of the
19 harm that is done when they
20 accompany the latter, and the
latter
21 alone not infrequently does no
such
22 harm."
23 I'm reporting on what scientists have
reported, and
24 in the course of it I'm speaking of
degrees of
25 harm, and I think implying quite
clearly harm from
26 child sex abuse and comparing those
degrees of
27 harm.
So that would be one of the lines that I
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1 believe I was alluding to when I
answered your
2 question.
3
Q All right.
4
MR. BROWN: Are there
any others?
5
A I believe so. The others are similarly indirect,
6 if that's the right word.
7
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. Well, rather than
8 take the time now, may I ask for an
undertaking
9 that you identify in the article titled
"Moral
10 Fervor Without Accurate Knowledge Does
Evil" those
11 passages which you suggest identify
that you have
12 condemned adult/child sexual
relationships in this
13 article.
14
A Yes, or describe it as
harmful, at least. I'm not
15 sure what condemned comes to.
16
Q Well, I'm saying condemn is
the first -- that's the
17 undertaking that I'm asking for.
18
A Surely.
19
Q Okay.
20
MR. BROWN: M-hm.
21 UNDERTAKING NO.
22:
22 IDENTIFY IN THE ARTICLE TITLED
"MORAL FERVOR
23 WITHOUT ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE DOES
EVIL" THOSE
24 PASSAGES WHICH DR. CHRISTENSEN SUGGESTS
IDENTIFY
25 THAT HE HAS CONDEMNED ADULT/CHILD
SEXUAL
26 RELATIONSHIPS IN THIS ARTICLE.
27
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Now, in the passage that you
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1 just referred to, there is a discussion
of a
2 meta-analysis of studies of child sex
abuse. Can
3 you identify for us what that study is
that you're
4 referring to?
5
A I couldn't offhand give you
the title, but I could
6 look it up, if you wish that to be part
of the
7 undertaking.
8
Q I'll ask for a separate
undertaking that you
9 identify for us the meta-analysis of
studies of
10 child sex abuse referred to in the
article.
11
A It was very much in the news a
couple years before
12 these events, so that's why I had it in
my mind and
13 thought others would be aware of it,
so, yes, it
14 would be sensible to --
15
Q So you'll give that
undertaking?
16
A -- label it, and to bring it
to your attention.
17 UNDERTAKING NO.
23:
18 IDENTIFY THE META-ANALYSIS OF STUDIES
OF CHILD SEX
19 ABUSE REFERRED TO IN THE ARTICLE TITLED
"MORAL
20 FERVOR WITHOUT ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE DOES
EVIL."
21
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Now, also in that paragraph
22 you have used the words "child sex
abuse" and
23 identified the harm that comes from
child sex
24 abuse.
Is there anywhere in this article where you
25 draw a distinction between child sex
abuse and
26 adult/child sexual relationships?
27
A I'm sorry, where I draw a
distinction?
A.C.E. Reporting
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1
Q Distinction.
2
A That would be . . . Not to my
awareness. That
3 would be quite a fine distinction, I
guess, but,
4 sorry if my voice is getting low
again. I don't --
5 no, there's no such distinction that
I'm aware of
6 in here.
7
Q All right. Okay.
I'd like to turn to document
8 24.1.
9 This is an email to the Rutherford
Show at
10 QR77.com sent by yourself March 23rd,
2001; is that
11 correct?
12
A That's correct.
13
Q Did you receive any response
to this email?
14
A I did not.
15
Q Are you aware as to whether or
not the
16 Rutherford Show made any use or mention
of the
17 topics you raise in this email?
18
A I'm not aware of any such use
or mention.
19
Q So as far as you know, you
sent this email, it may
20 or may not have been read, and nothing
more came of
21 it; is that fair?
22
A That's correct.
23
Q Did you ever follow up with
the Rutherford Show
24 with respect to this email?
25
A I did not.
26
Q Turn to document 27.1.
27 This is an email from Bob Bouvier,
or
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1 Robert Bouvier, to looks like Mike
Laberge; is that
2 correct?
3
A Correct.
4
Q Dated 27th of March, 2001, and
in the paragraph
5 that starts with your name, it says:
6 "Ferrel has very clearly told
me
7 that he does not condone
adult/child
8 sex and that he has also said that
9 he believes that coercing children
10 into sex is bad."
11 Is it true that you told Bob Bouvier
those things?
12
A Very definitely.
13
Q Did you tell others those
things in March of 2001?
14
A At the meeting on that Sunday
that has been alluded
15 to, that's part of what I told the
board members of
16 ECMAS, yes.
17
Q When you mentioned the meeting
alluded to, just for
18 the record, what was that meeting
again?
19
A The meeting where they were to
decide whether to
20 kick me out of ECMAS over this whole
affair.
21
Q Right. And is it true that you do not condone
22 adult/child sex?
23
A It is certainly true.
24
Q Document 28.2.
25 This is a . . .
26 I want to refer to -- on page
28.2, there is a
27 letter to the editor to the National
Post written
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1 by Louise Malenfant. You have that in front of
2 you?
3
A That's right.
4
Q In that letter, in the
paragraph that begins with
5 the words "The primary
objective," it states:
6 "The primary objective of
this
7 letter is to note the standard of
8 excellence that the family rights
9 movement by Calgary ECMAS led for
10 nearly a decade by its president
11
Mike Laberge. Calgary ECMAS is
12 known throughout Canada as the
most
13 effective family rights
organization
14 in the country, and with good
15 reason. Mike Laberge and his
16 colleagues have been the most
17 prolific family law analysts of
all
18 organizations in the country
19 providing expert, well-prepared
20 discussion papers to nearly every
21 federal and provincial public
22 hearing on family law issues,
child
23 support and access for nearly a
24 decade."
25
Do you agree or disagree with
that description of
26 the Calgary ECMAS chapter?
27
A I guess -- I guess the best
way to say it is that I
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1 disagree, although you could describe
it as
2 hyperbole, and there is some truth in
the sense
3 that they had done some very good work,
but to say
4 that they were the best in the country
is really
5 stretching it.
6
Q How many ECMAS chapters are
there in the country?
7
A The two in Alberta are all
there really were.
8 There had been one for about a year in
Lethbridge,
9 and there was an attempt to start one
once in
10 Fort McMurray, but just the two in
Calgary and
11 Edmonton are all there had been.
12
Q All right. And in the article, in the quote we
13 just read, Louise Malenfant refers not
just to
14 ECMAS organizations across the country,
she refers
15 to family rights organizations across
the country?
16
A I would say that the Calgary
group certainly is not
17 better than the group called FACT in
Ontario.
18 There are other groups as well. I believe that
19 Louise was simply saying this to serve
her own ends
20 and not because of any actual knowledge
that she
21 had.
22
Q Is it fair to say that there
is a family rights --
23 there are family rights organizations
spread across
24
the country?
25
A That's correct.
26
Q Those would likely be focused
in the major cities;
27 is that correct?
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1
A That's correct.
2
Q What's your knowledge of,
you've mentioned one
3 already, FACT, in Toronto, is it?
4
A Yes.
5
Q Do you have knowledge of other
family rights
6 organizations across the country?
7
A Some knowledge. Because of the Internet, we're
8 able to stay in touch over time, and I
have
9 awareness going back for ten years or
so of various
10 groups around the country.
11
Q If you had to rate Calgary
ECMAS in a continuum of
12 good, middle, or bad in terms of their
13 effectiveness, where would you rate
them?
14
A Oh, I would say they're good,
yes. They were good.
15
Q Okay.
16
A Along with -- along with ECMAS
Edmonton.
17
Q When you say "good,"
you mean -- I think you
18 understand what I mean, but just to be
clear,
19 effective as an organization, credible?
20
A Doing good, credible,
competent work, yes.
21
Q If you'd turn to documents 35
and 36, please.
22 Document 35 is an article that
appeared --
23 it's a copy of an article that appeared
in the
24 Calgary Herald Sunday, April 1st, 2001,
edition
25 titled "Board Quits En Masse Over
Volunteer
26 Convicted for Sexual
Exploitation," and towards the
27 end of that article, your involvement
with ECMAS is
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1 discussed, and your book is -- the
topic of your
2 book is raised.
3 Did you have any contact with the
reporter,
4 Deborah Tetley, prior to this article
being
5 published?
6 A
Yes. She phoned me at home, and
we spoke briefly
7 about the matters discussed here.
8
Q Now, there's no quote from you
in this article?
9
A That's correct, not in this
article.
10
Q Do you remember when you spoke with Deborah
Tetley?
11
A Yes. It was the day that the Post article -- the
12 first Post article came out where I was
not
13 mentioned but [Tim] Adams was discussed,
and
14 apparently what happened, and this is,
I
15 understood, somewhat speculative, but
what happened
16 was that Ms. Malenfant was calling
people and
17 telling them that there would soon be
another
18 article in which I would be attacked,
and that word
19 was somehow gotten directly or
indirectly to news
20 media people, two of whom phoned me
that day. One
21 of them, you may want to know this, one
of them,
22 Rick Pederson from the Edmonton
Journal, also
23 phoned me.
24
Q Now, when you spoke with
Deborah Tetley, can you
25 provide for us a summary, to your
recollection, of
26 what was the content of that
conversation?
27
A To my recollection, it was
just repeatedly telling
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1 her that my book did not condone child
sex abuse or
2 support child pornography. I was hoping she would
3 get a copy of it and read it, but she
said: No, I
4 have a deadline here. I have to get this article
5 written. And so it was mostly -- that was the
6 theme of it, telling her what kind of
thing was in
7 the book and what was not; but beyond
that, I
8
couldn't remember details.
9
Q Did she advise you as to
whether she intended to
10 use any of the statements you made to
her in the
11 article?
12
A I assumed she was going to use
anything -- might
13 use anything I said.
14
Q So that your understanding was
the interview was on
15 the record, and --
16
A That was my understanding.
17
Q -- for publication --
18
A Yes.
19
Q -- in terms of the content of
what you said?
20 Were you surprised after the
article came out
21 that there was nothing in there from
your
22 statements to her during that conversation?
23
A I guess I wouldn't say I was
surprised.
24 Journalists have their own reasons for
doing
25 things; however, it's probably helpful
to mention
26 that the journalist herself was dismayed
that the
27 article she wrote was cut down to the
point where I
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1 was no longer quoted, and she called me
to
2 apologize for that and said that
another article
3 would come out in which I would be
quoted.
4
Q When did she call you?
5
A I couldn't say exactly, but it
was sometime during
6 that weekend. It would have to have been.
7
Q Had you called her prior to
her calling you with
8 respect to --
9
A No, I did not call her.
10
Q Was there subsequently an
article published?
11
A Yes. It should be in our production here. Yes,
12 the next one.
13
Q Okay. The quotations and information that is
14 written in the April 2nd, 2001,
article, which is
15 identified as document 36, were you
happy with what
16 Deborah Tetley wrote in that article?
17
A To the best of my recollection
it was -- what she
18 said was accurate. I guess I wasn't happy that the
19 message was still going out to the
public that
20 there was something troubling here, but
the fact
21 that she quoted me was reassuring that
she was
22 trying to do the right thing. So I hope that
23 answers your question.
24
Q Is there anywhere in that
article where you state
25 that you do not condone adult/child
sexual
26 relationships?
27
A I guess there the focus is on
child pornography,
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1 which is what I did talk about in my
book. Please
2 put it on the record that the book
itself was no --
3 was no discussion of adult/child sexual
contact.
4 It was about pornography, and I had
these few
5 messages on child pornography. So that is
6 certainly said there in regard to child
7 pornography, in general, but there's
nothing
8 explicit there about adult/child sexual
content, I
9 believe -- adult/child sexual contact.
10
Q Okay. I'd like you to turn to document 39.1,
11 please.
12 This is an email from yourself to
13 Deborah Tetley of the Calgary Herald, I
take it,
14 but it's addressed to Peter Menzies; is
that
15 correct?
16
A Yes, it was, but the way I set
up the email
17 address, it was cc'd to Menzies. It was a bit of
18 an error there. It was actually meant to be for
19 Mr. Menzies.
20
Q Did you ever receive a
response from Peter Menzies
21 with respect to this correspondence?
22
A No, I did not.
23
Q Did you receive a response
from Deborah Tetley with
24 respect to this correspondence?
25
A I believe I did not.
26
Q Was the article that you
submitted titled "Moral
27 Fervor Without Accurate Knowledge Does
Evil" ever
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1 published in the Calgary Herald?
2
A It was not.
3
Q Document 41, please.
4
MR. BROWN: It's 41, not 40.1?
5
MR. EASTWOOD: That's
correct.
6
Q MR. EASTWOOD: This is an email from
7 Ferrel Christensen to Stephane or
Stephanie?
8
A Stephane.
9 Q
Stephane C. Giroux. Can you
advise who
10 Stephane C. Giroux is?
11
A At the time, he was fairly
active on a couple of
12 email lists that involve activists in
regard to
13 divorce reform and related subjects,
and I was
14 acquainted with him in that
setting. I don't
15 recall much more about him except that
he was
16 active on those lists.
17
Q Is this the extent, the full
extent, of your email
18 communication with Stephane C. Giroux
around the
19 time of April 5th, 2001?
20
A You're asking whether this one
email was the entire
21 correspondence?
22 Q
Yes.
23
A I believe it was not. It's the only one in which I
24 explicitly mentioned Ms. Laframboise,
and I believe
25 that's the reason I didn't include any
others with
26 it, but I'm quite sure there was other
27 correspondence at that time.
A.C.E.
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1
Q Would any of that correspondence
have included
2 discussion of any of the matters
related to the
3 controversy that occurred in March with
respect to
4 publication of the article?
5
A Oh, yes. Yes, that's the context this came up in.
6 I'm trying to recall here, so forgive
me if my
7 memory is wrong, but it seemed to me
that some of
8 this was in your own production, and I
was
9 responding to what I thought were --
initially were
10 very ignorant comments made by this
gentleman, and
11 it may be that some of your production
has some of
12 the -- the rest of this correspondence,
but I'm not
13 sure.
14
Q Right. And you might be right, it's that I might
15 not be remembering that we had included
some of
16 that.
17
A There are so many, so many
emails.
18
Q There are, yes. But I think I will ask still for
19 an undertaking to provide the remainder
of any
20 correspondence between Ferrel and
21 Stephane C. Giroux that you might have
still in
22 your possession, power, or control,
relevant to the
23 issues in this lawsuit.
24
MR. BROWN: Subject
to relevance.
25 UNDERTAKING NO.
24:
26 PROVIDE THE REMAINDER OF ANY
CORRESPONDENCE
27 BETWEEN DR. CHRISTENSEN AND STEPHANE C.
GIROUX
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1 THAT HE MIGHT HAVE STILL IN HIS
POSSESSION, POWER,
2 OR CONTROL, RELEVANT TO THE ISSUES IN
THIS
3 LAWSUIT.
4
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Turning to the next document,
5 which is numbered as 42.1, that's an
email to
6 J. Steven Svoboda from yourself. Can you identify
7 who J. Steven Svoboda is, please?
8
A A long-time activist in regard
to divorce reform
9 and gender equality issues. He lives someplace on
10 the west coast of the US, Oregon or
Washington, as
11 I recall. I'm not sure why he has the Harvard
12 address there because I have him
pictured in my
13 mind as living in Oregon or Washington.
14 But it's mostly a matter of
time-to-time
15 correspondence with him. He's fairly intelligent.
16 We had some common interests. That's about as much
17 as I could reasonably say here.
18
Q There are five pages of email
exchanged between the
19 two of you that you've attached. Would that
20 constitute the entire correspondence
between you
21 and Steven Svoboda with regard to the
topics of
22 this lawsuit?
23
A I believe that's correct. On this subject, that
24 should be the entire correspondence.
25
Q Thank you. All right, and turning to document 51.1
26 then.
27
MR. BROWN: 51.1?
A.C.E.
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1
MR. EASTWOOD: That's
right.
2
Q MR. EASTWOOD: It's an email to Cathy Young
3 from Ferrel Christensen, dated May 2nd,
2001. Can
4 you advise who Cathy Young is?
5
A Yes. Cathy Young is an American journalist who has
6 for years written on gender equality
issues,
7 including divorce reform issues, and
she, in
8 particular, is relevant here because
she knows
9 Donna Laframboise, although I can't say
how well
10 she knows her. I know that when Cathy published
11 her book, she mentioned Donna in the
beginning, and
12 Cathy is, because of her interest in
these issues,
13 and, in particular, because of her
being a
14 journalist, I have had a lot of
correspondence with
15 her over time on these subjects. And she was also
16 a member of an email group list at the
time that
17 discussed -- specifically discusses
sexuality and
18 gender equality. I think that is good enough.
19
Q M-hm. And there's eight pages of email
20 correspondence that you've produced in
your
21 documents. Is that the extent of your email
22 correspondence with Cathy Young that's
material to
23 this lawsuit?
24
A I believe I reported it
all. I think there was a
25 second email later on.
26 I thought there was one more email
where she
27 indicated that she was not interested
in pursuing
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1 this any further, but I don't see it
now.
2
Q Near the top of the first page
there?
3
A Well, maybe this is all there
is to it. Again,
4 it's slow coming back to me.
5 Q Well, maybe I'll still ask for an
undertaking that
6 you produce any further documents that
you might
7 have with respect to correspondence
between
8 yourself and Cathy Young that are relevant
to the
9 lawsuit?
10
A Surely.
11 UNDERTAKING NO.
25:
12 PRODUCE ANY FURTHER DOCUMENTS THAT DR.
CHRISTENSEN
13 MIGHT HAVE WITH RESPECT TO CORRESPONDENCE
BETWEEN
14 HIMSELF AND CATHY YOUNG THAT ARE
RELEVANT TO THE
15 LAWSUIT.
16
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. And turning to
17 document 66.1.
18 This is an email to M. Forbister. That's
19 Marina Forbister; is that correct?
20
A Correct.
21
Q From yourself, dated April
28th, 2001. I'd like to
22 refer you to a statement in there. It's about a
23 third of the way down the page, the
paragraph
24 beginning:
25 "Knowing all this, after
seeing your
26 first letter to ECMAS Edmonton, I
27 sent Mike a copy of an essay I
wrote
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1 up so the Calgary board would know
2 my book's actual claims and my
3 motives for stating them."
4
A M-hm.
5
Q When did you send Mike Laberge
a copy -- that's
6 Mike Laberge, I take it, that's
referred to there?
7
A Yes.
8
Q When did you send Mike Laberge
a copy of that
9 essay?
10
A I believe that it was part of
the much bigger
11 mail-out that I sent to about 70 people
on a list
12 that Louise Malenfant had been emailing. He was on
13 her list, and to counter what she was
doing I sent
14 this kind of information out, and I did
not produce
15 all those 70 emails, but what I did
explain in
16 my -- in my production was that I was
including a
17 representative one, and -- but that
there were
18 others that were just exactly the same.
19
Q Okay.
20
A And that representative one
was the one to
21 Mr. Rutherford that we talked about
earlier.
22
Q So that identifies what the
essay was; is that
23 correct?
24
A That would be correct.
25
Q What about confirming the date
when that would have
26 been sent to Mike, that that email was
sent, do you
27 recall what that is?
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1 A It would have to be the same date when I
sent all
2 the others. Do I understand the question?
3
Q Yes. Yes, I think so.
4
MR. BROWN: Which is
the Rutherford
5 exhibit that we were looking at
earlier? We can
6 get the date.
7
A Whatever that day was.
8
MR. BROWN: 11.2
maybe.
9
MR. EASTWOOD: That was
24.1.
10
MR. BROWN: March
26th, '01.
11
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Maybe I'll just ask for an
12 undertaking. Would that be perhaps easier for the
13 record to show? And the undertaking would be that
14 you identify for us, by way of
undertaking, the
15 date that you sent Mike Laberge a copy
of the essay
16 referred to in your email to Marina
Forbister of
17 April 28th, 2001.
18
A And in case I've forgotten
there was something
19 else, that would be -- that would be
presented too.
20 That would -- that would be good.
21
MR. EASTWOOD: So you'll
give that
22 undertaking?
23 MR. BROWN: Yes.
24
MR. EASTWOOD: Thanks.
25 UNDERTAKING NO.
26:
26 IDENTIFY THE DATE THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN
SENT
27 MIKE LABERGE A COPY OF THE ESSAY
REFERRED TO IN
A.C.E.
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1 DR. CHRISTENSEN'S EMAIL TO MARINA
FORBISTER OF
2 APRIL 28TH, 2001.
3
Q MR. EASTWOOD: In that document, 66.1,
4 there's a paragraph just below where we
were
5 looking, starts with a number (1), and
it says:
6 "In general, children are
sexual
7 beings for whom it is biologically
8 natural and intrinsically
unharmful
9 to masturbate and have sexual
10 contact with each other."
11 Can I ask you, when you use the word
"children" is
12 there an age range that is delineated
by the use of
13 that term?
14
A I believe that in my book and
in my other writings
15 I consistently distinguish children
from
16 adolescence, in case that's what you
have in mind,
17 that's the age range would be below the
age of
18 pubescence when I speak of children.
19
Q So it's not defined by a
numerical age in years.
20 It's defined by either before or after
pubescence;
21 is that correct?
22
A That's the way I tend to use
the term.
23
Q So children would include all
persons of any age
24 prior to pubescence?
25
A That's right. Just to clarify, in my book I often
26 speak of children and teenagers or
children and
27 youth, so . . .
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1
Q Okay. And document 67, if you'd turn to that one,
2 please.
3 It's an email to Bob Bouvier --
no, excuse me,
4 it's an email . . .
5 All right, here we go. I'm referring to the
6 bottom email there, it's an email from
Mike Laberge
7 to Bob Bouvier, do you see that, dated
May 3rd,
8
2001?
9
A Yes.
10
Q Under the heading Original
Message. And in there,
11 Mike Laberge writes the following
sentences:
12 "The events you refer to the
Calgary
13 board of ECMAS are your
14 interpretations, not the facts
from
15 here. We were never prodded,
16 coerced, pressured, or manipulated
17 by anyone."
18 I take it you disagree with that
assessment made by
19 Mike Laberge?
20
A Depending on what one means by
those terms, of
21 course.
He evidently is using them in a narrower
22 sense than Mr. Bouvier was using them,
but I
23 certainly was not privy to what
happened between
24 him and either Ms. Malenfant or Ms.
Laframboise.
25 So speaking off that basis, I can't
very well
26 disagree, I wasn't there; but based on
what I do
27 know, I have the feeling that he's
understanding
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1
the term "pressure"
much more narrowly than we
2 would, because to me it certainly looks
like
3 pressure when somebody is threatening
the things
4 that they were threatening. If that is adequate.
5 Q
That's fine. Thank you. I'd like to refer to the
6 transcript of your previous examination
by
7 Fred Kozak that took place in September
of 2003.
8
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
9
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Referring to the transcript of
10 the Examination for Discovery of Ferrel
Christensen
11 conducted September 16th, 2003. Do you have a copy
12 of that in front of you?
13
A Apparently so, yes.
14
Q I'd ask if you could turn to
page 97 of that
15 transcript.
16 At the bottom of page 97, starting
at line 21,
17 Mr. Kozak:
18 "Q And I'll come back to that
19 letter. What other evidence do you
20 have that this article adversely
21 affected your ability to take the
22 message out to people, lobby, so
to
23 speak?
24 A Well, the other person that I
25 specifically mentioned was a woman
26 whom I had worked with in regard
to
27 the issue of domestic violence.
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1 Q Yes, and her name was?
2 A Sheila -- I'm really terrible
3 on names anymore. I hope it will
4 come to me, but it's not coming
yet.
5 I can certainly get it for
you."
6 Have you remembered the name of that
person?
7
A Oh, yes, I did remember it
quite soon after this
8 session. Unfortunately, there was a slip-up, and
9 my lawyer at the time didn't put her
name in
10 response to the undertakings. I believe we sent
11 you the name recently. The full name is
12 Sheila Heath.
13
Q That's great, thank you.
14
(UNDERTAKING NUMBER 9 ANSWERED)
15
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
16
(ADJOURNMENT)
17 Q
MR. EASTWOOD: I'd like to ask
you some
18 questions with respect to your
book. The book is
19 titled Pornography, The Other Side,
authored by
20 F. M. Christensen. Can you advise us of any
21 portions of your book
where you condone
22 intergenerational sex?
23
A There certainly is no portion
of my book where I
24 condone intergenerational sex.
25
Q Is it your understanding that
the terms
26 intergenerational sex and adult/child
sex are the
27 same?
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1 A
That would be the way that I would understand it.
2
Q Can you advise us of any
portions of your book
3 where you advocate intergenerational
sex?
4
A There is certainly no portion
of my book where I
5 advocate intergenerational sex.
6
Q Can you advise us of any
portions of your book
7 where you condemn intergenerational
sex?
8
A To my memory, there is no
explicit condemnation of
9 intergenerational sex in my book,
keeping in mind
10 that I didn't discuss the subject at
all, though I
11 did briefly discuss child pornography.
12
Q I'm going to ask for an
undertaking that you advise
13 if there are any portions of your book
where you do
14 condemn intergenerational sex?
15
A It's easy to give; and if
there is such a place, I
16 will -- I will describe it, or I will undertake
to
17 alert you.
18
Q Thank you.
19 UNDERTAKING NO.
27:
20 ADVISE IF THERE ARE ANY PORTIONS OF
21 DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK WHERE HE
CONDEMNS
22 INTERGENERATIONAL SEX.
23
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Does your book contain
24 passages that discuss intergenerational
sex?
25
A Not as I would understand that
phrase, no.
26
Q All right. How do you understand the phrase
27 "intergenerational sex"?
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1
A Well, as I understand it, discuss
intergenerational
2 sex as opposed to a bare passing
allusion that I
3 can remember in one passage.
4
Q Can you identify that passage
that you have just
5 stated was an allusion to intergenerational
sex?
6
A I'll turn to those. Let's see.
At the bottom of
7 page 112. Shall I read?
8
Q Please.
9
A
10 "However, there is the
special
11 argument that depictions of sex
12 between adults and children can be
13 used to give children the
impression
14 that such behavior is socially
15 acceptable."
16 Q
All right.
17
A And as I was understanding
this, that could include
18 drawings, verbal descriptions, or any
other
19 depiction.
20
Q Aside from that passage, are
there any other
21 passages where you allude to
intergenerational sex?
22
A I believe that there are
not. I could be mistaken
23 in that regard. I would have to refresh my memory.
24
Q Right, and I understand that I
am asking you
25 questions about a book that is several
hundred
26 pages long, and, therefore, I would ask
for an
27 undertaking that you advise as to
whether or not
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1 there are any passages in your book
that allude to
2 intergenerational sex?
3
A I will do that.
4 UNDERTAKING NO. 28:
5 ADVISE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE
ANY PASSAGES
6 IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK THAT ALLUDE
TO
7 INTERGENERATIONAL SEX, OTHER THAN THE
REFERENCE AT
8
THE BOTTOM OF PAGE 112.
9
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Is there a difference between
10 condemning intergenerational sex and
condemning the
11 harm that may or may not result from
12 intergenerational sex?
13
A I find that a difficult
question because of the
14 fact that in my mind what makes
something
15 condemnation worthy is that it involves
some sort
16 of probability of harm. It's hard for me to
17 separate the two.
18
Q All right.
19
A To condemn something
legitimately, it seems to me
20 requires that there is harm involved,
or probable
21 harm, or possible harm involved in some
way. I
22 hope that clarifies.
23
Q So if there is an activity
that doesn't have harm
24 involved, or possible or probable, in
your words,
25 the activity would not be worthy of
condemnation?
26
A One would have to be a little
more careful in
27 spelling it out. There is the intent of the agent,
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1 the worry about the knowledge of the
agent. So
2 something like if the agent knows that
there is a
3 reasonable likelihood of harm, then
it's wrong for
4 the agent to perform that action. Something more
5 complex, I think, would have to be
spelled out,
6 something as a philosopher that I
sometimes do, but
7 I'm just saying, in response to your
question, it's
8 a little more complex than you've
worded it.
9
Q Well, let me ask you this
question. Aside from any
10 harm that might come from
intergenerational sex,
11 you wouldn't otherwise condemn it; is
that fair?
12
A It's an open enough question
that I think I need to
13 clarify, if I may.
14
Q All right. Yes.
15
A I'd like to speak in general
again about right and
16
wrong and morality, as I see
it. The requirement
17 that there be some kind of probable
harm is to me
18 very important, and so for
intergenerational sex or
19 anything else the issue would be, is it
-- is there
20 any likely harm there? In the case of adult/child
21 sex, there's a great likelihood of harm
because of
22 the difference of power and knowledge
between the
23 adult and the child, and it's -- but it
is, to get
24 your question, it is the possibility or
likelihood
25 of harm that ultimately would make that
or anything
26 else wrong, in my view.
27
Q Is it possible, in your view,
to have an occasion
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1 of intergenerational sex where there is
no harm?
2
A It is not only possible but
well established that
3 it happens. Sometimes it doesn't do any harm.
4 That's . . .
5
Q Are there portions of your
book where you refer to
6 instances or studies of
intergenerational sex not
7 doing harm?
8
A I'm sure there is nothing like
that in my book.
9
Q All right. So you wouldn't condemn those instances
10 of intergenerational sex where there is
no harm?
11
A On the contrary. If an analogy will help, I would
12 condemn someone driving 100 miles an
hour down
13 Jasper Avenue, even if no one gets
harmed, because
14 there's a danger of harm, and the
person knowing
15 that and doing it anyway has done
something
16 seriously wrong. I hope the analogy helps. I hope
17 the analogy is clear. Knowing that there is
18 serious danger of harm, one should not
do such
19 things.
20
Q Is it possible for there to be
an occasion of
21 intergenerational sex where there's no
possibility
22 of harm?
23
A In this culture, it would be
hard to think of an
24 example.
25
Q Why is that?
26
A I'm trying to think of
something that would
27 illustrate. You'd have to speak of a situation
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1 where it was known that there was no
possibility of
2 harm, and that would be very difficult
to find.
3
Q All right. But you said, you qualified that by
4 saying that "in our
culture." When you say "in
5 our culture," what are you
referring to?
6
A Well, in this culture we have
-- this is a culture
7 of strangers. Most of the people we would contact
8 in daily life we don't know. There are much
9 greater dangers in a culture like that
then there
10 would be in a village culture where
everyone knows
11 everyone else; and I guess I'm
conceding that in a
12 culture where there is much more
control over every
13 individual, one can reduce dangers of
harm in
14 various kinds of things in ways that we
cannot.
15 Perhaps my response about the culture
was not
16 helpful, but a lot of things go through
my head
17 when you start asking these questions,
so . . .
18
Q When you refer to this
culture, which culture are
19 you referring to?
20
A The modern technological
western culture. I was
21 making a contrast with the village
cultures that
22 I've read so much about in my research
on the
23 ethnology of sexuality.
24
Q All right. So in other cultures then, including
25 the cultures that you've just referred
to, are
26 there instances where there is no harm
or possible
27 harm that results from
intergenerational sex?
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1
A I think I can give you
one. This is sometimes
2 disturbing to people in this culture,
but I take
3 this as an anthropologist would,
looking at it
4 quite objectively, I think. There are a surprising
5 number of cultures in which parents
pacify fussy
6 children by masturbating them, and
there is no
7 evidence that -- and keep in mind these
are
8 children very young, not -- they are
not -- they're
9
under the age of two or three, and that there is no
10 evidence that it's harmful to them.
11
Q Which cultures are you
referring to?
12
A I would have to just -- my
reading on this goes
13
back a long ways, but they're
village cultures I
14 spoke of earlier. There's some in the Middle East,
15 there's some in Southeast Asia, as I
recall, but my
16 memory is definitely fuzzy.
17
Q All right. Are any of those instances or cultures
18 referred to in your book Pornography,
The Other Side?
19
A Certainly not in that
context. That's not -- the
20 information is not mentioned in the
book.
21
Q All right. But, in any context, are any of those
22 cultures or instances of
intergenerational sex not
23 having harm or possible harm referred
to in your
24 book?
25
A Not that I'm aware of. I talk of the Muria
26 culture, I talk of the Trobrianders,
and a few
27 others, but I don't recall whether that
particular
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1 practice is present in those particular
cultures,
2 if that's your question.
3
Q Maybe I'll ask for an
undertaking and see if you'll
4
agree to give this. Would you undertake to advise
5 of passages in your book which may
refer or allude
6 to cultures where there's no harm or
potential harm
7 from intergenerational sex?
8 A I
don't believe I could find that information.
I
9 would have to go back and read a lot of
-- an awful
10 lot of books.
11
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
12
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Off the record, you were
13 referring to Footnote 9 of Chapter 8,
which is at
14 page 172 of your book, and you had made
some
15 comments with respect to the purposes
for which you
16 referred to those books in that
footnote, and the
17 content of those materials referred
to. I would
18 ask if, for the record, you could
restate what you
19 stated off the record.
20
A Oh, surely. In those particular sources are
21 described sexual interactions of
children with
22 other children in certain nonwestern
societies, and
23 it was for the purpose of alerting the
reader to
24 that information that I made the
reference to those
25 sources of children having sexual
contact with
26 other children.
27
Q Is it your recollection of
those studies that they
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1 did have in them as well information
with respect
2 to adult/child sexual relationships?
3
A I do not remember any mention
of that kind of
4 subject in those sources.
5
Q In other sources referred to
in your book, can you
6 identify -- can you identify in your
book sources
7 referred to where the topic of adult/child
sexual
8 relationships would have been
discussed?
9
A I do not believe there were
any such sources
10 referred to in my book.
11
Q All right. Can I ask for that by way of
12 undertaking?
13
A Can you repeat the
undertaking?
14
Q Yes. The undertaking would be to identify two
15 things:
either passages in the text of your
16 book --
17
A M-hm.
18 Q -- or other works referred to in the text or
19 footnotes or bibliography where
intergenerational
20 sex was a topic of those passages or
studies?
21
MR. BROWN: Well, I
think we've already
22 got a definitive answer from him that
there are no
23 such things. If that information changes, we'll
24 advise you of that, but I don't think
it's
25 appropriate to ask for an undertaking
to something
26 that's already been answered
definitively.
27
MR. EASTWOOD: All
right.
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1
MR. BROWN: I mean,
it may turn out that
2 he remembers something that he doesn't
remember
3 now, but in that case we'll update you,
but I don't
4 think it's appropriate to do an
undertaking on
5 something he's already answered.
6
MR. EASTWOOD: Fair
enough.
7
MR. BROWN: All
right.
8 UNDERTAKING NO.
29:
9 FURTHER TO DR. CHRISTENSEN'S ASSERTION
THAT THE
10 TOPIC OF ADULT/CHILD SEXUAL
RELATIONSHIPS ARE NOT
11 IDENTIFIED IN HIS BOOK, ADVISE OF ANY
CHANGE IN
12 THAT ASSERTION AND IDENTIFY EITHER
PASSAGES IN THE
13 TEXT OF HIS BOOK OR OTHER WORKS
REFERRED TO IN THE
14 TEXT OR FOOTNOTES OR BIBLIOGRAPHY WHERE
15 INTERGENERATIONAL SEX WAS A TOPIC OF
THOSE
16 PASSAGES OR STUDIES.
17
Q MR. EASTWOOD: You've included in your book a
18 chapter titled "Sex and
Psychological Health."
19 It's Chapter 8. Can you advise as to how that
20 chapter fits in with the main theme of
your book,
21 which is pornography?
22
A Yes. The basic subject of the book is pornography,
23 obviously. The broader concern, which is clearly
24 indicated all the way through, is
sexuality more
25 generally, pornography being sort of an
icon for a
26 lot of beliefs and attitudes regarding
sexuality
27 more generally.
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1 The basic structure of the book
was one in
2 which having presented certain basic
issues at the
3 beginning, I then went topic by topic
to discuss
4 the question of whether pornography is,
as some
5 would allege, a bad thing. And so the -- in fact,
6 it might even be good if we could -- if
we could
7 look at the Table of Contents to answer
this
8 question.
9
Q Sure.
10
A I take it you want -- you're
asking about the
11 structure, and it's somewhat complex.
12 As we see from looking at the
Table of
13 Contents, I start off with some general
remarks in
14 the first chapter about sexual desire
and fantasy,
15 fantasy being what's relevant to
pornography. And
16 the second one, sex and values, that
being a
17 general discussion of the morality of
sexuality and
18 morality in general. With that as background, then
19 I look at, chapter by chapter, at
specific kinds of
20 arguments against pornography. And I don't think I
21 need to go through all of these to
answer the
22 question, but one of the charges
against
23 pornography is that it is either a sign
of or a
24 cause of, that is, using it, is either
a sign of or
25 a cause of mental ill health in some
way, and so
26 that chapter was designed to refute
those claims,
27 and also to say some more general
things, as
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1 always, about sexuality and mental
health.
2
Q I'd like to turn to page 110
of your book, please.
3 I'm going to read you a
passage. I can't
4 seem to find it on this page, so it may
not be on
5 this page, but the passage I have in
mind is:
6 "Stories of emotional distress
from
7 early sexual experience are often
8 told in this society; but it is
9 clear that the real sources of
such
10 trauma, other than those involving
11
unwanted pregnancy,
coercion, or
12 disease, lie in the accompanying
13 social attitudes."
14
A Yes.
15
Q Middle of page 110.
16
A On 110.
17
MR. BROWN: It's
almost exactly in the
18 middle.
19
A "As for the common
idea" is where the paragraph
20 starts.
21
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Thank you. In that passage
22 you refer to "sexual
experience." Can you advise
23 what you mean by sexual experience?
24
A Early sexual experience that I
had in mind would be
25 things like masturbation and sexual
contact with
26 other children of various kinds. Do you need a
27 list, or is that --
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1
Q Would sexual experience
include sexual experience
2 between adults and children?
3
A That is definitely not what I
had in mind in
4 discussing the subject.
5
Q Right. Are there other passages in your book that
6 you could refer us to which might help
explain or
7 unpack the words "sexual
experience"?
8
A Offhand, I can't be sure. I'd have to look in the
9 index and look up places where sex and
children are
10 mentioned.
11
Q Well, I'll ask for that
undertaking.
12
A But that wouldn't be hard to
do.
13
Q If you could undertake,
please, to advise of other
14 passages in your text which help to
define the term
15 "sexual experience" as used
in this sentence?
16
A "Early sexual
experience," that should be no
17 problem.
18
Q Thank you.
19 UNDERTAKING NO. 30:
20 ADVISE OF OTHER PASSAGES IN DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT
21 WHICH HELP TO DEFINE THE TERM
"EARLY SEXUAL
22 EXPERIENCE" AS USED IN THE
SENTENCE QUOTED WITHIN
23 THE SECOND PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 110 OF THE
TEXT.
24
Q MR. EASTWOOD: On page 111, as well, another
25 quote I'd like to refer you to is:
26 "Among other primates, early
sexual
27 activity, like play in general, is
a
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1 kind of "rehearsal" for
their adult
2 roles. And at least in some
3 species, such sex play is known to
4 be required for later sexual
5 adequacy."
6 In that passage, when you refer to
"sexual
7 activity," would that include
sexual activity
8 between adult primates and child
primates?
9
A That was certainly not my
intent, and not in accord
10 with anything I had read on the
subject. It was
11
little monkeys, and doing
things with each other.
12
Q I'm going to ask for the same
undertaking then that
13 if you would advise if there's any
passages in your
14 book that might define the term
"sexual activity"
15 as you've used it in the passage we
just read.
16
A Sexual activity, sexual
experience. It sounds like
17 basically the same undertaking.
18
Q Yes, but each undertaking is
specific to the
19 sentence that we referred to.
20
A Sexual activity as opposed to
experience?
21
Q Yes.
22
A Okay. No problem.
23 UNDERTAKING NO.
31:
24 ADVISE IF THERE'S ANY PASSAGES IN
25 DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK THAT MIGHT
DEFINE THE TERM
26 "SEXUAL ACTIVITY" AS IT IS
USED IN THE PASSAGE
27 QUOTED ON PAGE 111 OF THE TEXT.
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1
Q MR. EASTWOOD: And in that same sentence you
2 used the word -- or the same passage,
in the second
3
sentence of it, on page 111:
4 "And in at least some
species, such
5 sex play is known to be required
for
6 later sexual adequacy."
7 Would the words "sex play"
include activities
8 between adult primates and juvenile or
child
9 primates?
10
A That was not my intention and
not what I had read
11 about that I was alluding to here.
12
Q I'll ask also for an
undertaking that you advise as
13 to whether there are any other passages
in your
14 text which help define the terms
"sex play" as
15 you've used them in the sentence we've
just read.
16
A It's basically the same undertaking, sex
play, sex
17 activity, sex experience. I see no problem there.
18
Q Thank you.
19 UNDERTAKING NO.
32:
20 ADVISE WHETHER THERE ARE ANY OTHER
PASSAGES IN
21 DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT WHICH HELP
DEFINE THE TERM
22 "SEX PLAY" AS USED IN THE
SENTENCE QUOTED FROM THE
23 SECOND PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 111 OF THE
TEXT.
24
Q MR. EASTWOOD: On page 111, you also wrote:
25 "It may even be the case, as
various
26 researchers have suggested, that
27 there is a valuable place for
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1 erotically explicit materials in
the
2 education of children."
3 Would erotically explicit materials include
4 materials that depict sexual activity
between
5 adults and children?
6
A It's certainly not what I
intended.
7
Q All right. I'll ask for a further undertaking that
8 you advise as to any passages in your text
where
9 you further define or discuss the words
or phrase
10 "erotically explicit
materials" as you've used them
11 in this sentence.
12
A Erotically explicit
materials. There's a lot in
13 the book about erotically explicit
materials, you
14 must realize.
15
MR. BROWN: He's only
asking for the ones
16 that define or help to explain what you
mean by
17 that phrase; correct?
18
MR. EASTWOOD: That's
correct.
19
MR. BROWN: Not just
whenever it's used,
20 but used in such a way as to --
21
A That might clarify.
22
MR. BROWN: To
clarify.
23
A I see. I see.
24
MR. BROWN: Okay.
25
Q MR. EASTWOOD: And, in particular, I think
26 it's fair to say that you have just
stated when you
27 used those words, you were not
including
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1 adult/child explicit materials.
2
A I certainly did not have that
in mind at all.
3
Q The undertaking then is, to
make sure we're on the
4 same page, to find other passages in
your book
5 which might confirm or not confirm that
to be the
6 case.
7
A I'm not sure how they would do
that offhand, but I
8 will certainly look.
9
Q All right.
10 UNDERTAKING NO.
33:
11 ADVISE AS TO ANY PASSAGES IN DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S
12 TEXT WHERE HE FURTHER DEFINES OR
DISCUSSES THE
13 WORDS OR PHRASE "EROTICALLY
EXPLICIT MATERIALS" AS
14 USED IN THE SENTENCE QUOTED IN THE
THIRD PARAGRAPH
15 ON PAGE 111 OF THE TEXT.
16
Q MR. EASTWOOD: On page 111 you also wrote:
17 "This does not apply, of
course, to
18 depictions of deviant sex."
19 Can you advise what you mean by
"deviant sex"?
20
A Adult/child sexuality would
certainly be an
21 example. I have in mind things like fetishism and
22 sadomasochism. Is that good enough for your
23 purposes?
24
Q Are there other passages in
your book which further
25 explain the words "deviant
sex"?
26
A There may be.
27
Q Well, maybe I'll just ask for
the undertaking, if
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1 that's all right, if you could -- if
you could
2 undertake to advise of other passages
in your book
3 where you refer to deviant sex, which
will help to
4 understand what you meant when you
referred to
5 deviant sex --
6
A Yes.
7
Q -- in the passage we just read?
8
A Yes.
9 UNDERTAKING NO.
34:
10 ADVISE OF OTHER PASSAGES IN DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
11 WHERE HE REFERS TO "DEVIANT
SEX," WHICH WILL HELP
12 TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANT WHEN HE
REFERRED TO
13 "DEVIANT SEX" IN THE PASSAGE
QUOTED FROM THE THIRD
14 PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 111 OF THE TEXT.
15
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Also on page 111 you wrote:
16 "But healthy, happy sexual
17 depictions or descriptions are no
18 more inappropriate for them than
is
19 the case for those involving other
20 kinds of healthy human
behavior."
21 Now, when you refer to
"them," you are referring to
22 children; is that correct?
23
A Still talking about children
here, yes.
24
Q When you say "happy
sexual depictions or
25 descriptions," what do you mean by
that?
26
A I used the word
"healthy" as well, clearly
27 distinguishing this from anything
deviant. So I
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1 guess depictions of playing doctor,
even possibly
2 intercourse, self display, these are
the sorts of
3 things I had in mind, I would think.
4
Q Could "healthy, happy
sexual depictions" include
5 adult/child sexual depictions?
6
A Not healthy, because
pedophilia is a perversion.
7 That would be, I think, taken care of
by the way
8 I've described it.
9
Q Is it possible that in a
different culture that
10 "happy, healthy sexual
depictions" could include
11 depictions of adult/child sexual
activity?
12
A It's hard for me to see how it
could. I might have
13 said earlier that adult/child sex is
considered
14 inappropriate in all the cultures that
I'm aware
15 of, with the special exceptions of the
sort of
16
thing that I mentioned
earlier. Very young
17 infants, adults will sometimes
masturbate them, and
18 that it's for the -- it's for the
benefit of the
19 infant, not for the benefit of the
adult. It's
20 not -- it's not pedophilia. Beyond that, in the
21 fairly extensive reading that I've done
on the
22 subject, I've not run across a culture
that
23 considers sexual behavior between full
adults and
24 children to be appropriate. That may not fully,
25 exactly answer your question, but I
hope it helps.
26
Q No, it does.
27
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
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1
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. In your Statement
2 of Claim, you have complained about the
following
3 two sentences:
4 "Ferrel Christensen, for his
part,
5 is a professor emeritus of
6 philosophy at the University of
7 Alberta and the author of a 1990
8 book, Pornography, The Other Side.
9 While a child's sexuality has
10 decided moral dimensions for most
11 Canadians, in a section titled
'Sex
12 and Young People,' Professor
13 Christensen discusses these issues
14 outside a moral context."
15 Is that correct?
16
A That's correct. That's part of our action.
17
Q In paragraph 8 of your
Statement of Claim, and feel
18 free to put that in front of your
client, if you
19 want to, you have specifically stated
that the
20 article as a whole contains the
following false and
21 defamatory innuendo, namely, in paragraph 8(a)
--
22
A Sorry, what page was that?
23
MR. BROWN: Paragraph
8, I think he said.
24
MR. EASTWOOD: 8(a).
25
Q MR. EASTWOOD: In paragraph 8(a), you have
26 complained of the false and defamatory
innuendo
27 that:
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1 "By allegedly discussing
issues of
2 childhood sexuality outside of a
3 moral context in his book,
4 Dr. Christensen expressed the view
5 that morality is irrelevant to
6 issues involving children's
7 sexuality."
8 Is that correct?
9
A That still seems to be
correct, as it was written
10 there.
11
Q Are there passages in your
book upon which you rely
12 to claim that the article does not have
the meaning
13 referred to in paragraph 8(a)?
14
A I'm sorry, I'm not -- I'm not
quite following
15
something here. This 8(a) denies something
16 specific.
17
MR. BROWN: Maybe you
can just repeat your
18 question.
19
MR. EASTWOOD: Yes, I'll
try to.
20
MR. BROWN: I sort of
lost track of it.
21
Q MR. EASTWOOD: It's a little bit of a
22 difficult question, and I hope I can
make it clear.
23 In paragraph 8(a) you have stated a
meaning that
24 comes from the article that is false
and
25 defamatory?
26
A Yes, this is claimed to be
false and defamatory.
27
Q And that meaning is that in
your book you express
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1 the view that morality is irrelevant to
issues
2 involving children's sexuality?
3
A Right.
4
Q That's correct?
5 My question is: Are there passages in your
6 book which you rely upon with respect
to that claim
7 that it's false that morality is
irrelevant, that
8 in your book morality is irrelevant to
issues
9 involving children's sexuality?
10
A Well, now, if my book simply
never said such a
11 thing, then there wouldn't be any
particular
12 passage that I could point to where I
didn't say
13 that.
So if -- that's part of what's throwing me
14 here.
15
Q Well --
16
A There are passages where, on
the contrary, I not
17 only said -- not only failed to say
what it was
18 alleged that I did say, but other
things that
19 suggest that I believe otherwise.
20
Q Those are the passages --
21
A Is that what you're getting
at?
22
Q You're helping me unpack a
complete question, and
23 that's the question I would like you to
answer.
24 What are the passages you rely on in
your text to
25 support your position that morality is
relevant to
26 issues involving children's sexuality?
27
A If I may, I feel that my
former lawyer did a
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1 wonderful job of pointing out passages
to
2 Ms. Laframboise in which I speak in a
moral context
3 of these issues, and I guess my first
thought would
4 be to just go back to some of the
things he pointed
5 out to her, that this was not amoral
what I was
6 saying, quite the contrary. Does that help us get
7 any farther?
8
Q That answer is partially
helpful, but I'm still
9 going to ask for a little bit more
particulars.
10
A M-hm.
11
Q I would like you -- I think
perhaps it might be
12 best as an undertaking. I'm not trying to heap
13 piles of undertakings here, but I think
--
14
MR. BROWN: It's
going to have to be if
15 it's about the whole book really.
16
Q MR. EASTWOOD: I would think so, yes. So I
17 would ask you to give the undertaking
that you
18 would identify passages in your book
that you rely
19 on to support your position that
morality is
20 relevant to issues involving children's
sexuality.
21 A
Okay. Put that way, as long as
you don't ask me to
22 list all such passages, simply some
reasonably good
23 ones.
Would that be adequate?
24
Q I would ask you to list all
such passages.
25
A Because if I may, we're talking about
general
26 context here, so every time I say
something about
27 the harm principle, for example, being
relevant to
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1 sex, you know, in a way this is part of
the moral
2 context that I'm building up for
everything else I
3 do say.
Do you see what I'm getting at?
Any time
4 I talk about morality, directly or
indirectly, I'm
5 putting the moral context that Ms.
Laframboise has
6 said is not there, and that could get
quite
7 lengthy. She says that I spoke outside of a moral
8 context. Well, my goodness, the book is one great
9 big moral context, so I hope -- I hope
you see what
10 I'm finding troubling here.
11
Q Yes. I think that's a fair comment, and then I'll
12 allow you to use your discretion in
selecting those
13 portions that particularly relate to
the subject.
14
A That I can understand, I
believe, and I think that
15 is quite a reasonable request.
16
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
17
Q MR. EASTWOOD: If you can undertake to advise
18 of the passages in your book upon which
you rely to
19 support your view that morality is
relevant to
20 issues involving children's sexuality,
21 acknowledging that to some degree your
entire book
22 discusses issues based on a foundation
of morality,
23
in your words, and therefore
selecting those
24 passages which most particularly
identify issues of
25 morality with respect to children and
issues of
26 morality with respect to adult/child
sexual
27 activity.
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1
A Oh, you've gone way beyond the
general question of
2 the moral context which is discussed
here. There's
3 nothing about adult/child sexuality
alluded to in
4 8(a), so the last part in there I'm
troubled by.
5
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
6
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Confirming a discussion we've
7 had off the record to better identify
the
8 undertaking which I am requesting from
9 Dr. Christensen, I will state the
undertaking as
10 follows: that you undertake to identify passages
11 in the book that show that morality is
relevant to
12 issues involving children's sexuality.
13
A That sounds clear to me. Yes, I will do that.
14
Q Thank you.
15 UNDERTAKING NO.
35:
16 IDENTIFY PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S
BOOK THAT
17 SHOW THAT MORALITY IS RELEVANT TO
ISSUES INVOLVING
18 CHILDREN'S SEXUALITY.
19
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. Turning to page 15
20 of your book, in the second full
paragraph on page
21 15, the following sentence is written:
22 "Turning more specifically to
sexual
23 attitudes, we again find some
24 remarkable variations across time
25 and space - good evidence that
they
26 are only the product of training,
27 not moral truths obvious to
anyone."
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1 Is it fair to say that that text refers
to the
2 topic of morality and sexual activity?
3
A Yes, that's the topic.
4
Q And that would include sexual
activity involving
5 children?
6
A I believe I explicitly mention
children here, so,
7 yes.
8
Q And it would involve activity
involving adults and
9 children?
10
A In the broad sense that it's
talking about
11 sexuality in general, but without any
specific
12 focus on adults and children. It's a very broad
13 statement, so, yes.
14
Q All right. Turning to page 20, please.
15 Near the bottom of page 20,
there's a
16 subheading "Real Morality, Sexual and
Otherwise."
17
A M-hm.
18
Q Let me first ask the general
question. This
19 section under the title "Real
Morality, Sexual and
20 Otherwise" goes from page 20 to
24.
21
A M-hm.
22 Q Would you agree that that section of your
book is
23 relevant to issues of sexuality and
sexual activity
24 and morals?
25
A Oh, yes, indeed.
26
Q Thank you. And the first sentence in that section
27 is:
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1 "A major point of the
foregoing
2 discussion of attitude origins is to
3 reveal our obligation to
critically
4 examine all our moral
beliefs."
5 Are there any moral beliefs that should
not be
6 critically examined?
7
A Not to my knowledge. I would say no.
8
Q What about the moral belief
that what is moral or
9 immoral is determined by what causes
harm or
10 potential harm, should that belief be
critically
11 examined?
12
A Surely. I speak as one who has critically examined
13 it.
14
Q On page 21, the first full
paragraph there begins
15 with the sentence:
16
"In a word, the
central principal is
17 that values must be based on needs
-
18 on what makes for suffering or
19 happiness in life."
20 Again, is that sentence, in your view,
relevant to
21 the issue of the relationship of sexual
activity or
22 sexuality and morals?
23
A Surely.
24
Q Page 153, the paragraph at the
bottom of the page,
25 the following sentence is written:
26 "If we are to do anything
27 significant about all the
aggression
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1 in this society, the remedy must
2 include a lot of things, such as
3 attacking its socioeconomic roots.
4 It must also include simply doing
a
5 better job of teaching morality to
6 children - real morality, that is:
7 Respect and concern for others,
and
8 equal dignity for all."
9 Is it fair to say that that passage is
relevant to
10 the topic of sexuality and sexual
activity and
11 morality?
12
A Surely.
13
Q Page 101, please, about the
third last sentence
14 there, starts:
15 "The only moral wrong
involved in
16 teenage sex, or any other kind,
lies
17 in taking an appreciable chance of
18 bringing harm to another - not in
19 sexual activity per se, nor in the
20 desire that leads to it. If our
21 society's moral condemnations were
22 placed there, where they belong,
23 some of the serious social
problems
24 we now face would be vastly
25 reduced."
26 Is it fair to say that those two
sentences are
27 relevant to the subject of sexuality
and sexual
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1 activity and the relationship to
morals?
2
A Surely.
3
Q With respect to the phrase
"or any other kind," can
4 you advise as to what that refers to?
5
A I believe it's clear, any kind
of sex or any kind
6 of activity, any kind at all, I would
say, what
7 makes it good or bad is, as we
discussed earlier,
8 what the agent knows about the
likelihood of harm,
9 and so on and so on.
10
Q So when you say any other
kind, you're referring to
11 any other kind of sex?
12 A
It would include any other kind of sex, yes.
13
Q And that would include sex
between adults and
14 children?
15
A Right. What would make sex between adults and
16 children wrong would be the likelihood
of harm
17 being done, taking the appreciable
chance of harm
18 to another. That, I think, follows from what we
19 said earlier.
20
Q All right. Referring back to your Statement of
21 Claim for a moment. In paragraph 5 of your
22 Statement of Claim, you've complained
about the
23 sentence in the article which reads:
24 "Even more controversially,
when
25 discussing the harm he believes
26 society's attitudes towards
27 childhood sex cause, he equates
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1 loving parents who teach their
2 children sexual restraint with
3 pedophiles . . ."
4 and then, I believe, in your Statement
of Claim it
5 has ". . ." there; is that
correct?
6
A Yes.
7
Q I take it that means that
you're referring not just
8 to that sentence but to the remainder
of that
9 paragraph in the article?
10
A I do not remember offhand why
the three dots were
11 put there. I wouldn't suppose it meant that I was
12 referring to all of the rest of the
paragraph, to
13 answer your questions, but I'm not sure
why the
14 three dots are there in the first
place, so I'm not
15 sure, as I say, overall.
16
MR. BROWN: Do you
know where that
17 paragraph is, so I can find it?
18
MR. EASTWOOD: Yes,
right there.
19
MR. BROWN: Just so
that he can see what
20 the three dots may . . .
21 "Even more
controversially," right there.
22
A Oh, okay.
What follows that is a quotation.
I
23 guess that's why the -- there was felt
to be no
24 need to repeat the quotation, and the
three dots
25 were put there instead.
26
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Okay.
Well, for the purpose
27 of my next series of questions then, I
will be
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1
referring to that entire
paragraph which starts
2 with the words "Even more
controversially, when
3 discussing the harm, he believes,"
and ends in the
4 third column in the article with the
sentence:
5 "Ironically, in
fact, it is the very
6 fear and guilt that children are
7 taught to keep them from being
8 sexual that cause the
problems."
9 Is that acceptable?
10
A I sort of lost track of your
lengthy sentence there
11 at one point.
12
Q All right. I'm going to ask you some questions
13 about this paragraph in your Statement
of Claim,
14 paragraph 5, and I just want to try and
get clear
15 what we're talking about in terms of
what you put
16 in your Statement of Claim, and I'm not
trying to
17 pin you down to one meaning of what
you've pled or
18 another meaning. That's not the purpose. The
19 purpose is, if we can at this point, be
clear about
20 what it is that you're complaining
about in
21 paragraph 5 when you refer to that --
22
MR. BROWN: Can I
just make a suggestion?
23 It seems to me, if you read this, the
sentence
24 that's quoted here is the reporter's
words.
25
A Exactly.
26 MR. BROWN: We take it that that
27 paraphrase, or that's her intent, it's
her intent
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1 to paraphrase the quotes
that she -- that follow
2 that in this way; in other words, she's
3 paraphrasing what Dr. Christensen's
position is in
4 the words that are quoted in the
Statement of
5 Claim.
And the basis of her paraphrase, she's
6 providing with direct quotes from his
book. Okay.
7 He's obviously not complaining about
the quotes
8 from his book. What he's complaining about is the
9 way she paraphrases those quotes.
10
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Right.
Well, he might be.
11 The remainder of the book, there is one
other
12 sentence which isn't a quote from your
book.
13 Midway down it says: "Elsewhere he says," and then
14 continues on with a further quote.
15
MR. BROWN:
Okay. Well, I guess he's not
16 complaining about "Elsewhere he
says."
17
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. Well then, is it
18 fair then, we just restrict, for the
purposes of
19 these questions with respect to what
you've
20 complained of in the Statement of
Claim, just that
21 first part of that paragraph that
you've set out in
22 your Statement of Claim?
23
MR. BROWN: The
reporter's paraphrase.
24
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. Fair enough.
25
A Surely, although I don't --
it's not clear to me
26 that it's a paraphrase. The colon could be
27 indicating that this is an example --
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1
Q Fair enough.
2
A -- of the sorts of things I
say in my book.
3
Q Okay. Well, just for the purpose of these
4 questions then, that's what we're
referring to.
5
A Good.
6
Q Now, in paragraph 6(a) of the
Statement of Claim,
7 you have advised or complained that --
the words
8 that you've complained about in the
article have
9 the natural and ordinary meaning as set
out in
10 paragraph 6(a) that:
11 "Dr. Christensen has
published the
12 opinion that a loving parent who
13 teaches children sexual restraint
is
14 morally indistinguishable from a
15 pedophile."
16 Is that correct?
17
A That still seems to be
correct, as we wrote it
18 before.
19
Q Now, can you advise of places
in your book where
20 you have dealt with the topic of
teaching sexual
21 restraint?
22
A You may want an undertaking on
this again. In the
23 document titled "My Case"
that I've given to you
24 before, I've discussed this to some
degree, and, in
25 fact, in some of the passages you've
just had me
26 read, I discuss it. This one, on page 153, as I
27 recall, I speak explicitly of teaching
children
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1 morality. If you want to look specifically at the
2 matter of restraint, I may be able to
find
3 something.
4
Q Well, why don't I ask it by
way of undertaking.
5 I'm not sure if you have an
objection. The
6 undertaking would be that you would
identify
7 passages in your book that deal with
the topic or
8 allude to the topic of teaching sexual
restraint.
9
A That should be no problem.
10
Q Thank you.
11 UNDERTAKING NO.
36:
12 IDENTIFY PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S
BOOK THAT
13 DEAL WITH THE TOPIC OR ALLUDE TO THE
TOPIC OF
14 TEACHING SEXUAL RESTRAINT.
15
Q MR. EASTWOOD: At page 16 of your book, if
16 you could turn there, please. You've written the
17 sentence:
18 "Even among those parents who
do not
19 overtly punish their children's
20 expressions of eroticism (which
many
21 do, physically or
psychologically),
22 the message is sent in subtle
ways.
23 If a child is playing with its
24 genitals, the hand is pushed
away."
25 Is it fair to say that that passage is
relevant to
26 the topic of teaching sexual restraint?
27
A I would not describe it that
way. I'd say it's
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1 about teaching sexual aversion and
fear, but not
2 restraint. I hope -- I don't know how clear that
3 is to you, but that's how I would
describe it. I
4 speak that way recognizing words like
restraint and
5 so on are not highly precise terms, so
. . .
6
Q On page 112, about in the
middle of the page near
7 the end of the first full paragraph,
you've
8 written:
9 "In fact, given all the harms
that
10 (as we'll continue to see) result
11 from teaching sexual guilt to
12 children, it would be very
13 appropriate to regard such
teachings
14 as a form of child sex
abuse."
15 Is that passage relevant to the subject
of teaching
16 children sexual restraint?
17
A Basically, I would answer the
same as I just did.
18 To me, teaching sexual guilt is
something quite
19 other than simply teaching sexual
restraint. It
20 may involve restraint but in a way that
I consider
21 illegitimate, whereas restraint per se
I would --
22 or maybe I should say legitimate
teaching of sexual
23 restraint would be based on genuine
harms and not
24 irrational fears, and not guilt over
things that
25 don't do any harm. So I understand your question,
26 I think.
27
Q Right.
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1
A And it's perhaps a subtle
point, but I would say
2 that -- maybe put it this way. There are
3 illegitimate ways of teaching restraint
that I
4 would object to, and I have never
objected to
5 teaching restraint per se. Maybe that will help.
6
Q On page 111, starting at the
last sentence on the
7 bottom of the page and then turning
over to 112,
8 you've written:
9 "The 'official' information
they do
10 get, moreover, tends to be all
11 negative, about the perils of
12 disease or molestation, never
about
13 the joy of being sexual. The
14 inevitable result is a society in
15 which the adults are, in spite of
16 what they assume, both miserably
17 ignorant about and filled with
18 superstitious fear concerning
their
19 own bodies and feelings. They raise
20 their children the same way they
21 were raised, and the cycle
22 continues."
23 Would you agree that that passage
relates to the
24 subject matter of parents teaching
children sexual
25 restraint?
26
A With the same caveats that
I've just been giving,
27 it would -- it would relate to
illegitimate ways of
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1 teaching restraint, and illegitimately
teaching
2 other things as well, but it's
certainly not any
3 sort of opposition to teaching
restraint per se,
4 certainly not any opposition to
teaching legitimate
5 grounds for restraint.
6
Q So can you advise what would
be a legitimate
7 subject matter for parents to teach
their children
8 sexual restraint about?
9
A I'd be glad to do that. The dangers of disease
10 which -- very, very serious danger in
the modern
11 world, which it has not always been at
all times
12 and places. The special dangers of harm that
13 attend any kind of coercion. People's sexual
14 desires sometimes make them do things
to other
15 people that they certainly should not
do, and
16
children need to be warned
about this, just as they
17 would warn children about your desire
for this toy
18 should not lead you to do anything
hurtful to
19 another child, your desire of any kind
should not
20 lead you to do things to hurt other
people, and
21 this is teaching restraint on genuinely
moral
22 grounds of avoiding harm to other
people, avoiding
23 harm to yourself.
24
Q Would it ever be justified for a parent to
teach
25 sexual restraint with respect to sexual
activity
26 that didn't cause harm?
27
A Again with the understanding
of -- that we're
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1 dealing with the likelihood of harm,
the
2 possibility of harm and so on, then I
think I can
3
safely say the answer is
no. In my view, morality,
4 in general, is based, among other
things, on the
5 possibility or likelihood of causing
harm to
6 another person.
7
Q Right. With respect to the methods of teaching
8 sexual restraint, could you advise what
methods of
9 teaching sexual restraint you would
condone and
10 what methods you would have concern
about, and, in
11
particular, with respect to
what you've written in
12 your book?
13
A M-hm. I think my answers are going to be along the
14 same lines. Teaching on the basis of genuine
15 morality, which to me means genuine
dangers of harm
16 and help to other people. Let's see now. I think
17 I've lost track of your question.
18
Q Well, maybe I can refer back
to a passage we've
19 already discussed to try and make my
question more
20 clear.
21 On page 16, I had read the passage
where you
22 had written:
23 "Even among those parents who
do not
24 overtly punish their children's
25 expressions of eroticism (which
many
26 do, physically or
psychologically),
27 the message is sent in subtle
ways.
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1 If a child is playing with its
2 genitals, the hand is pushed
away."
3 Would it be your view that it would be
possible for
4 an adult to legitimately teach sexual
restraint to
5 their child with respect to a child
playing with
6 their genitals?
7
A Certainly an adult could teach
something about
8 appropriate times and places, as
opposed to
9 inappropriate ones.
10
Q And it -- all right, sorry.
11
A I'm having to think about
something for the first
12 time that I haven't thought for a long
time. But,
13 in general, I guess, the answer would
be the same
14 as for any kind of teaching of
children. Are there
15 legitimate and illegitimate ways to do
it, as I see
16 it.
Inculcating irrational fears, as opposed to
17 fears of genuine dangers, is a bad
thing. Now,
18 this particular example is, and is
meant to be a
19 very, very minor illustration, a very,
very subtle
20 sort of thing. This is not anything that I would
21 get extremely excited about or blaming
an adult for
22 doing, but it's meant to be an example
of subtle
23 ways in which messages are sent that
nevertheless
24 can be negative, so I hope the
impression is not
25 there that I see this as a serious
matter, but it
26 is a nice, concrete example of
something that I
27 think can be inappropriate, and so if
the -- if the
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1 child can be taught something about
appropriate
2 times and places as opposed to being
sent a message
3 that it's always bad to touch yourself
down there,
4 I think that would be one I would be
asking adults
5 to look for.
6
Q If we take away the issues of
time and place and
7 look at the activity of a child
touching their own
8 genitals, and aside from any harm or
possible harm
9 that might come from that, would it be
your view
10 that that is a natural and a normal
activity for
11 children?
12
A Natural, normal, and healthy,
yes.
13
Q And given that, would it be
fair to say that your
14 position is that parents teaching
children not to
15 do that in any way or ever --
16
A M-hm.
17
Q -- would be inappropriate?
18
A I believe that's
inappropriate, yes.
19
Q Wouldn't a parent who teaches
their child never to
20 touch their genitals be teaching their
child sexual
21 restraint?
22
A They would be doing what I
have referred to as
23 teaching inappropriate sexual
restraint, teaching
24 the wrong kind of sexual restraint for
the wrong
25 reasons, as opposed to the right kind
for
26 legitimate reasons. Yes -- but, yes, it's still a
27 kind of restraint, but I think I made
that
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1 distinction before.
2
Q On page 23 and 24 of your
book, please, again
3 starting at the bottom of the page, the
last
4 sentence that is contained on page 23:
5 "During the Victorian era,
many
6 parents resorted to such
deterrents
7 as mittens and straps, chastity
8 belts and devices to cause pain if
9 an erection occurred - even
painful
10 types of circumcision and cutting
11 out or cauterizing the clitoris
were
12 used. Loving parents were willing
13 to inflict pain, humiliation, and
14 mutilation on their children to
15 prevent the supposed evil. Such is
16 the power of superstitious
fear. So
17 the subject of this book is hardly
a
18 trivial one; its ultimate concern
is
19 human happiness. And though we
20 cannot here discuss the entire
issue
21 of sexual morality, it will be
22 further developed in regard to our
23 restricted subject."
24 Again, is it fair to say that that
passage is
25 relevant to the topic of parents
teaching their
26 children sexual restraint?
27
A Given the understanding I now
have, I'm just saying
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1 it certainly is a beautiful example of
2 inappropriate ways of teaching
restraint of an
3 inappropriate sort in an extreme.
4
Q In that passage you refer
specifically to loving
5 parents.
6
A M-hm.
7
Q I take it that means that
despite the activity that
8 they were engaging in which was harmful
to their
9 children, that those parents still
loved their
10 children?
11
A That's -- I meant what I
said. I think there's a
12 terrible irony here, and I think it's
clear from
13 what I said, that they had the best
intentions in
14 the world. They wanted -- they loved their
15 children, they wanted to help their
children, but
16 because of the mistaken attitudes that
they had, as
17
I see it, they did something
terribly harmful to
18 their children instead. I think this is one of the
19 best illustrations I could use of
inappropriate --
20 teaching inappropriate restraint for
inappropriate
21 reasons, and certainly using
inappropriate methods
22 in -- methods that are inappropriate in
the
23 extreme. But, again, there is clearly no objection
24 to sexual restraint per se, or no
objection to the
25 right kind of restraint for the right
reasons.
26 That is most certainly the opposite of
what is
27 here.
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1
MR. EASTWOOD: All
right. I think that's
2 perhaps a suitable place for me to
break at this
3 time, if that's all right.
4
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
5
6
(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:00 P.M.)
7
(PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 1:30 P.M.)
8
9
Q MR. EASTWOOD: If you could turn in your
10 Statement of Claim to paragraph 5
again, and I'm
11 referring to the statement at the
bottom of page 3
12 where you have complained with respect
to what was
13 published in the National Post article,
the
14
following sentence:
15 "Pedophiles, he believes, are
able
16 to lure children because, in our
17 culture, young people are
prevented
18 from having the sexual knowledge
and
19 the sexual contact with peers that
20 they naturally desire."
21 And in paragraph 6(d) of your Statement
of Claim,
22 you have identified the meaning, the
natural and
23 ordinary meaning, of that sentence as
follows, in
24 paragraph 6(d), that:
25 "Dr. Christensen has claimed
in his
26 book that keeping children from
27 sexual knowledge and sexual
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1 experience with their peers does
not
2 just make possible the specific
3 pedophile tactic of using
4 pornography to lure children but
is
5 the entire explanation of the
6 success of pedophiles in luring
7 children into sex with them."
8 Is that correct?
9
A That is what we've claimed,
and that's what I
10 believe to be the case.
11
Q Turning to page 112 of your
book, would you agree
12 that the sentence you've complained of
in your
13 Statement of Claim is based on or
quotes from the
14 following sentence, on page 112 of your
book, which
15 is:
16 "In fact, this and similar
tactics
17 by pedophiles are possible because
18 young people are prevented from
19 having the sexual knowledge, and
the
20 sexual contact with peers, that
they
21 naturally desire."
22
A Actually, the relevant
material begins before that.
23
Q Right.
24
A Should I read that?
25
Q Yes. You could identify where it begins. That
26 would be great.
27
A The first complete paragraph
on that page, "One
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1 currently popular argument."
2
Q All right. And then continuing through to the end
3 of the quote that I had just read, is
that correct,
4 or continuing past that?
5
A The two -- the two sentences fit
together, yes.
6
Q In fact, there's three
sentences there.
7
A I'm sorry?
8
Q There's three sentences.
9
MR. BROWN: Three
sentences.
10
A Oh, sorry. Yes, my mistake.
11
Q MR. EASTWOOD: So just to be clear for
12 myself, that your answer is that, in
your view,
13 relevant in your book to this complaint
and the
14 portion of the article complained about
is the
15 first three sentences in the paragraph
that begins
16 with "One currently popular
argument."
17
A Yes. That seemed to be quite clearly where she
18 drew her statement from.
19
Q All right. Are there other passages in your book
20 that you rely on -- let me back
up. I take it
21 that, and I'm not asking a legal
question here, but
22 I take it that your complaint about
that sentence
23 that you've identified in the Post
article is that
24 the meaning is not an accurate
reflection of the
25 meaning of the portions of the book we
just read?
26
A Yes, I think she seriously
distorted what I said in
27 the book.
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(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
2
Q MR. EASTWOOD: So let me ask this question
3 then, and it's similar to some of the
questions
4 I've tried to ask before with some
limited success
5 at times due to my own incoherence, I
think, but
6 can you identify in your book passages
that you
7 rely on to support your claim that her
8 interpretation of the three sentences
on page 112
9 is false?
10
A To my awareness there wouldn't
be any other
11 passages to reveal that. It seems to me that it's
12 fairly clear from seeing what I
actually said and
13 her wording that she is distorting
things. So I
14 guess the answer to your question is, I
can't -- I
15 can't think of any other passage that
would be
16 relevant to that, other than simply
reading what it
17 says and noticing how she -- what she
said.
18 Q
Could you identify then in those three sentences
19 what, in particular, you rely upon in
support of
20 your claim that her interpretation,
that her words
21 communicate the meaning that you've complained
of?
22
A I'm not sure that I know what
you're asking for
23 here.
24
Q Right. I'll try again.
25
A But I could -- I could be --
give more detail
26 perhaps, but I'm --
27 Q
That's what I'm looking for. In
particular, you've
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1 said that the sentence in the article:
2 "Pedophiles, he believes, are
able
3 to lure children because, in our
4 culture, young people are
prevented
5 from having the sexual knowledge
and
6
the sexual contact with
peers that
7 they naturally desire."
8 You've said that that sentence, in its
natural and
9 ordinary meaning, has the meaning that
we've
10 identified in paragraph 6(d).
11
A That's right.
12
Q From your previous answers,
I'm interpreting them
13 to mean that you base that complaint on
the content
14 of those three sentences in that
paragraph?
15
A That's correct.
16
Q My question is, if you can
identify, more
17 particularly or with some
particularity, what it is
18 in those three sentences that you think
--
19
A Now, if I could --
20
Q -- conveys the meaning that
you're complaining
21 about?
22
A If I could clarify this. This seems to call on me
23 to basically give an argument, and
that's
24 appropriate for this setting, because
it's an
25 argument about how words are used; is
that really
26 what you want?
27
Q What I want you to do is
identify the passages in
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1 those sentences that you're relying on
to assert
2 your claim that the meaning you've
complained about
3 that she's communicated, that the
author of the
4 article has communicated about, is
false; in other
5 words -- and I don't think that's an
unfair
6 question.
7
A Okay. Well, maybe I could say a bit more, and it
8 will get clarified?
9
Q Sure.
10
A But my inclination is to
say: Well, look, when
11 somebody, say A is able to do X because
of Y, it
12 has a certain sort of meaning in
general. Y makes
13 A able to do X. These are familiar
expressions, and
14 what we have stated in our -- in our
pleadings here
15 basically relies on what I take to be
the standard
16 meaning of X makes Y able to do -- or X
makes A --
17 I guess I've lost the letters I was
using.
18
Q Right.
19
A When you say, in general, that
something makes
20 someone able to do something, it has a
certain
21 standard meaning, and I believe I'm
relying on that
22 standard meaning, for one thing, in the
pleadings
23 here; and does that help at all?
24
Q Yes.
25
A Again, in terms of the
specifics that you may be
26 looking for, one that certainly is
important is the
27 fact that I've talked about using
pornography as
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1 bait, and in her statement in the
article
2 complained of, there's nothing about
using
3 pornography as bait. There's no mention of
4 pornography at all, in fact, and so it
makes it
5 look as if, and this is what we've
pled, makes it
6 look as if she's saying that this lack
of sexual
7 knowledge makes children just vulnerable
to the
8 pedophiles themselves without anything
like the use
9 of the bait to lure them and so
on. I'm having
10 difficulty framing this, but -- because
it seems so
11 obvious to me.
12
Q Now --
13
A She has distorted the meaning.
14
Q In following up on that a
little bit, your comment
15 is that, as I understand it, that part
of the
16 unfairness in her sentence is that she
has not
17 referred to pornography?
18
A Well, what that means is, of
course, that she's
19 saying that children are attracted to
pedophiles,
20 and that is not what I said. I said that children
21 were, in fact, attracted to the bait.
22
Q Right. Would you agree that the word
"lure"
23 includes a connotation of use of bait?
24
A No, I do not agree with that.
25 Q
All right.
26
A But I was specifically
concerned that she -- I used
27 the word "lure," but I used
it as a noun, where it
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1 could be a lure. It's very different from just
2 luring.
3
Q Okay.
4
A So, no, I think my answer to
that is no.
5
Q Now, and you've complained
that the tactic -- that
6 the meaning of her sentence is that the
tactic of
7 using pornography to lure children is
the entire
8 explanation of success of pedophiles in
luring
9
children into sex with them?
10
A Well, again, she doesn't
mention pornography at
11 all, so, if I could rephrase your own
words, she
12 makes it look as if I'm saying that the
entire
13 explanation of children being attracted
to
14 pedophiles is that children don't have
other sexual
15 outlets, and that, of course, is quite
different
16 from what I actually said.
17
Q Right.
18 A I
mean, it really sounds like the kids are turning
19 to the pedophiles as a -- directly as a
substitute,
20 and that is definitely not what I said.
21
Q You've complained in the
meaning that you've
22 alleged that the meaning is that the
entire
23 explanation for the success of
pedophiles using
24 pornography to lure children is the
keeping of
25 children from sexual knowledge and sexual
26 experience; is that correct?
27
A Yes.
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1
Q Is there anything in the sentence
that she wrote
2 which states that?
3
A I think it's -- I'm taking
this to be the most
4 natural and ordinary meaning of those
words. X is
5 able to do -- X is able to do B because,
and it
6 doesn't say partially because or
anything like
7 that, so I think the most natural
meaning is that
8 that's the explanation.
9
Q All right. So you would disagree that that
10 sentence is capable of the meaning that
there may
11 be other explanations?
12
A This may be a bit tricky. When you say "capable of
13 other meanings," I guess I'd pause
a bit. What I
14 take to be the most natural and
ordinary meaning is
15 the one that we have attributed.
16
Q I understand that, and that's
what you pled, and my
17 question is whether or not there's
other meanings
18 that could be taken from that sentence
with respect
19 to --
20
A Could reasonably be taken, or
could -- because
21 "could" is --
22
Q Well, reasonably is -- yes, I
would accept that as
23 a qualifier to the question.
24
A I don't think it would be
reasonable to take
25 another meaning from it.
26
Q All right. Turning to page 7 in your Statement of
27 Claim -- or, first of all, page 6,
sorry. In
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1 paragraph 8, you have alleged a number
of false and
2 defamatory innuendos, including, on
page 7, that
3 8(g), that Dr. Christensen is an
amoral, or of bad
4 character, or an evil person, and (i),
that
5 Dr. Christensen is, in some way or
other, a threat
6 to children; is that correct?
7
A That's correct.
8
Q I'd ask you to turn to page 89
of your book.
9
A M-hm.
10
Q On page 89, almost in the
middle, the third
11
sentence in the middle
paragraph there reads:
12 "One has only to consider the
13 cross-cultural picture to begin to
14 realize this, say, the promiscuous
15 children and youth of Mangaia or
the
16 Trobriand Islands or the Muria
17 villages, who grow up into
18 hard-working adults who have
19 internalized all their society's
20 moral standards. More generally,
21 there is no indication that
sexually
22 positive cultures have greater
23 amounts of antisocial
behavior."
24 The paragraph continues.
25 Can you advise as to in what way
the children
26 and youth of Mangaia or the Trobriand
Islands were
27 or are promiscuous?
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1
A Sorry, in what way?
2
Q In what way.
3
A They're?
4
Q Promiscuous.
5
A I'm having trouble
understanding the question. Do
6 you mean maybe to what degree, because
promiscuous,
7 to me, means they have more than one
sexual
8 partner.
9
Q Is that what you meant in this
--
10
A That's how I understand the
term. Sorry if that
11 wasn't -- this is a term that I'm
familiar with and
12 may not -- may use quite unconsciously,
but . . .
13
Q Were there some studies or
information that you
14 relied on in making that claim?
15
A Oh, yes. In fact, the very references that we were
16 looking at earlier today. In the case of Mangaia,
17 I forget the authors' names. The Trobriand
18 Islands, islanders, were written about
in classic
19 anthropological tests by Malinowski.
20
Q All right.
21
A The Muria villages in India
were written about by
22 Elwin.
23
Q Those are some of the people
who are identified in
24 Footnote 9 of Chapter 8; is that
correct?
25
A That's right. Although I did -- there is one
26 difference here. I mentioned Mangaia, and I don't
27 believe that's mentioned in the
footnote. The
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1 authors of the material on Mangaia are
not
2 mentioned there, and I'm not -- one of
them, I
3 believe, was named Suggs, S-U-G-G-S,
but I'm not
4 completely sure of that. This has been quite some
5 years, so . . .
6
Q All right.
7
A But it just -- I think your
broader question is to
8 be sure that I genuinely had solid
information to
9 make this statement, and I certainly
did.
10
Q And that solid information are
the authors and
11 studies that are referred to in
Footnote 9 of
12 Chapter 8?
13
A Except for the one regarding
Mangaia, but, yes,
14 this was -- these and others. In fact, other
15 studies I could have mentioned I didn't
mention
16 here draw the same conclusion.
17
Q Okay. Could I ask for an undertaking that you
18 would identify the studies that you
relied on in
19 support of that sentence that aren't
identified in
20 the book?
21
A I will do that, yes.
22
Q Thank you.
23 UNDERTAKING NO.
37:
24 IDENTIFY THE STUDIES THAT DR.
CHRISTENSEN RELIED
25 ON IN SUPPORT OF THE SENTENCE QUOTED
FROM THE
26 SECOND PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 89 OF THE
TEXT, STUDIES
27 THAT ARE NOT IDENTIFIED IN THE BOOK.
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1
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Now, the promiscuous children
2 and youth of Mangaia and Trobriand
Islands, were
3
they promiscuous with respect to
activities with
4 other children or were they promiscuous
with
5 respect to activities with adults?
6
A With regard to other children,
which is why I did
7 not mention adults.
8
Q Is it your recollection that
the studies that you
9 relied on in support of this sentence,
that there
10 was no sexual activity between children
and adults
11 in those societies?
12
A Again, as indicated earlier,
to the best of my
13 memory, there was no such
discussion. It's very
14 rare to have this sort of thing
discussed, because
15 it's apparently very rare in all of
these cultures.
16
Q All right.
17
A And it's certainly not
approved by any of these
18 cultures, so it's not the sort of thing
that would
19 be discussed as part of their -- what that
culture
20 is like.
21
Q Okay. If you could turn to page 101, please.
22 Actually, I think we've already
covered this
23 in detail in connection with another
portion of
24
your Statement of Claim, so
I'll strike that for
25 now in terms of the question.
26 I'd like you to turn to your
bibliography in
27 your book, and page 178.
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1
A All right.
2
Q On page 178, there's a work
referred to under the
3 heading:
4 "Diamond, Milton. In press.
5 "Cross-Generational Sex in
6 Traditional Hawai'i." In J.R.
7 Feierman (ed.). Pedophilia:
8 Biosocial Dimensions. New York:
9 Aldine Publishers."
10 Now, have you read the article written
by
11 Milton Diamond,
"Cross-Generational Sex in
12 Traditional Hawai'i"?
13
A Yes, I have.
14
Q Can you advise when you first
read that article?
15
A I read it before it was
published because he gave
16 me advanced copy, so it would be
roughly a year,
17 possibly two years before the date of
publication.
18
Q All right. Have you read it since it was
19 published?
20
A I reread it pursuant to this
case sometime in, I
21 think, the year following the events
we're dealing
22 with here, publication of the article
complained
23 of, I believe, sometime in that
following year as a
24 general matter of reviewing things that
might be
25 relevant to the case.
26
Q When you read it on that
subsequent occasion that
27 you just mentioned, is it your
recollection that
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1 the article you read at that time was
the same as
2 the article that you had read prior to
it being
3 published?
4
A As far as my memory could
disserve, yes.
5
Q Now, you had mentioned that
Milton Diamond had
6 provided you a copy of this article
prior to it
7 being published. For what purpose did he provide
8 you that article?
9
A A general interest in
sexuality. He would tend to
10 give me copies of everything he was
writing in
11 those days. We would trade information back and
12 forth, and this was an obvious way to
do it.
13
Q Was there any other purpose
besides that general
14 purpose with respect to
this article?
15
A I don't believe so. He knew of my interest, in
16 general, in various cultures' approach
to
17 sexuality, and so you could put that
down as a
18 special reason, I guess, but there
needn't have
19 been any special reason.
20
Q After you had read the article
that he provided
21 you, did you speak with him about it?
22
A I certainly think that I would
have done, but I
23 can't say to how great a degree.
24
Q Do you have any recollection
of what you might have
25 spoken to him about with respect to the
article?
26
A No, not at this date.
27
Q Would you have any notes or
records of any
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1 conversations or communications you had
with
2 Milton Diamond about this article?
3
A I'm quite certain I would not
have such.
4
Q When you read this article,
was it at all for the
5 purpose of providing him feedback or
input to the
6 article?
7
A In a general sense he would be
looking for feedback
8 from anyone, and so, yes, that would --
I can
9 safely say that would have been part of
his
10 interest.
11
Q Did you provide any feedback
or input that you
12 remember?
13
A Not that I remember. It would not have been
14 substantial, but I don't remember.
15
Q And what was your reaction to
the article when you
16 read it?
17
A It might be of value to step
aside just a moment to
18 mention something that you wouldn't be
aware of,
19 namely:
that the title is quite misleading.
In
20 spite of the term cross-generational
sex, it's
21 really -- when he speaks of
cross-generational sex,
22 he's mostly talking about the adults
that are
23 educating the children sexually, and
the openness
24 about sex in the family, and things of
that nature.
25 I'm almost embarrassed to say this
because the
26 title is, in fact, highly
misleading. I think it
27 might be a really good idea to produce
a copy for
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1 you to look at, because it seems to be
-- I can see
2 why it's relevant to your concerns, and
that might
3 go far to clarify what it's all about,
and . . .
4
Q All right.
5
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
6
Q MR. EASTWOOD: So
I had asked you -- previous
7 to our off-the-record discussion, I had
asked you
8 with respect to your reaction to
reading this
9 article, and you had made a comment
that the title
10
is misleading, and then advised
as to what the
11 content of the book was, as opposed to
what might
12 be surmised from reading the
title. Aside from
13 that, can you advise as to any other
reaction you
14 had with respect to the article when
you read it?
15
A Not at this date, no.
16
Q All right. Now, this article, "Cross-Generational
17 Sex in Traditional Hawai'i," does
it appear
18
anywhere else in your
text? That particular
19 article, has it been cited anywhere
else in your
20 text?
21
A Not that I'm aware of, and, in
general, I have
22 books in the bibliography that are not
actually
23 cited in footnotes or elsewhere.
24
Q All right.
25
A So it's possible, but I'm
certainly not aware of
26 it, having cited it in the text.
27
Q Well, I'll ask you for an
undertaking to review
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1 your book and advise if there are any
other
2 locations in the book where the text
cites this
3 article specifically.
4
A I can. I will do that.
5
Q If there any portions of the
book that you can
6 identify which rely on materials in
this article as
7 a source or basis for what you discuss
in the book.
8
A So things that I've said that
I got from this
9 source even though I don't site that
source; is
10 that the question?
11 Q
That's correct. Thank you.
12
MR. BROWN: Or are
supported by that
13 source.
He might have had it as background.
14
MR. EASTWOOD:
Sure. That may be my next
15 question.
16
A Again, that's a little more
possible, but I
17 certainly don't remember.
18
Q Well, I'll ask for the
undertaking then that you
19 review your book and advise as to
whether or not
20 there are passages in this book which
you wrote in
21 some way relying on this article or the
information
22 contained in this article.
23
A I will do that. I'll have to go back and reread
24 it.
It's been another three years, and it's very
25 fuzzy in my mind again, but I will
certainly do
26 that.
27
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1 UNDERTAKING NO.
38:
2 ADVISE WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE
PASSAGES IN
3 DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK WHICH RELY ON OR
USE
4 INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THE ARTICLE
5 "CROSS-GENERATIONAL SEX IN
TRADITIONAL HAWAI'I."
6
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Do you have a recollection
7 of --
8
A My lawyer has just pointed out
to me a footnote
9 where I do refer to it, in fact.
10
Q All right.
11
A I didn't remember it, but, in
fact, it's in there,
12 Footnote 3 in Chapter 3, on page 168.
13
Q All right.
14 A So
I stand --
15
Q So you've identified --
16
A I stand corrected.
17
Q You've identified Footnote 3
of Chapter 3 as a
18 specific reference to Milton Diamond's
19 "Cross-Generational Sex in
Traditional Hawai'i."
20
A Yes.
21
MR. BROWN: But there
may be others, and
22 we'll undertake to, you know, do the
others if we
23 find any.
24
MR. EASTWOOD: Thank
you. All right.
25
Q MR. EASTWOOD: How was this bibliography
26 compiled? Did you do that?
27
A Oh, yes.
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Q What was your approach or
criteria in selecting
2 works to include in the bibliography?
3
A I think I mentioned in the
earlier Discovery
4 session that I was writing for a general
educated
5 audience; and, in this case, as I
recall, I
6 selected books that seemed to me to be
fairly
7 important, and the sorts of things that
the
8 educated reader might want to look up,
without
9 putting in highly technical
articles. This is the
10 distinction I'm making. There were certainly a lot
11 of journal articles that didn't wind up
in here
12 because they weren't particularly
relevant to the
13 issues and may be just not as important
to a
14 potential reader.
15
Q Do you have a recollection now
of what, in
16
particular, would have led
you to include this
17 article in your bibliography?
18
A Well, that footnote identifies
the particular use
19 that I put to you, and it's pretty
minor, but the
20
fact that I did refer to it in
the footnote was
21 sufficient reason to have it in the
bibliography.
22
Q Right.
23
A Whether there might have been
some other reason, I
24 do not recollect.
25 Q
So would it be true that every book or work that
26 you site in a footnote would appear in
your
27 bibliography?
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A I would have scrupulously
tried to do that.
2
Q So it might be the case then
that the reason the
3 book is included -- or the sole reason
the book is
4
included in the bibliography
is the reference in
5 Footnote 3 that we have identified
earlier?
6
A That could well be the sole
reason.
7
Q Are you --
8
A It's of -- it's of general
interest, so it need not
9 be the sole reason, but I can't
recreate the
10 mind state I had then, of course.
11
Q You don't have any
recollection at this point?
12
A Yes.
13
Q Right. But you've given an undertaking that you
14 will review that to see if there were
other reasons
15 that --
16
A They would probably appear.
17
Q Yes. Now, you've advised previously in this
18 Examination for Discovery that Dr.
Milton Diamond
19 was a friend; is that correct?
20
A I believe I used that word,
explaining that I knew
21 him well because of spending a lot of
time in his
22 little institute. It's not as if we were drinking
23 buddies or anything like that, but
certainly a
24 friend, in a general sense.
25
Q Would you also describe him as
a colleague?
26
A In a general sense, surely,
both of us being
27 professors and having respect for each
other's
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1 writings and ideas.
2
Q Is the subject matter of this
article of particular
3 interest to Milton Diamond?
4
A The article complained of
here?
5
Q No, sorry, is the subject
matter of the article
6 "Cross-Generational Sex in
Traditional Hawai'i" of
7 particular interest to Milton Diamond?
8
A I guess I'm not sure what you
would mean by "a
9 particular interest." I do know that most of the
10 work that he did was in line with his
training,
11 which was not in anthropology or
ethnology. This
12 was sort of a side -- I think you could
say, call
13 this a side interest that arose from
the fact that
14 he was in Hawaii where he had access to
certain
15 resources.
16
Q So what was most of his
training in?
17
A I'm trying to remember. It's one of the biological
18 sciences, but which specific division
I'm not
19 remembering at the moment; but, in any
case, to
20 help answer, he was doing things like
experimenting
21 on sex change in fishes. He had tanks -- fish
22 tanks set up, and he would manipulate
the hormones
23 and things like that, so maybe that
will give you
24 some feel of what . . .
25
Q Well, was human sexuality an
academic interest of
26 his?
27
A Oh, yes. I believe I said before that he had a
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1
little institute there.
2
Q Right.
3
A A research institute,
occupying a few rooms on
4 one -- in one of the buildings where he
had a
5 library, which I used a great
deal. And so
6 sexuality, human sexuality, certainly,
but with
7 connections to animals was -- is what
he was doing
8 in that institute.
9
Q All right.
10
A Is doing in that institute
still.
11 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
12
(ADJOURNMENT)
13
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Just confirming a conversation
14 off the record where you have
identified a further
15 article in the bibliography written by
Paul Okami,
16 also in press, entitled
"Sociopolitical Biases in
17 the Contemporary Scientific Literature
on Adult
18 Human Sexual Behavior with Children and
19 Adolescents" in Jay R. Feierman's
Pedophilia,
20 Biosocial Dimensions, Aldine
Publishers, New York,
21 and we would ask that you would
undertake to review
22 your text and advise what passages or
portions of
23 your text may have relied on the
content of the
24 article just identified?
25
A Yes.
26
Q Thank you.
27
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1 UNDERTAKING NO.
39:
2 ADVISE WHAT PASSAGES OR PORTIONS OF
3 DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT MAY HAVE RELIED
ON THE
4 CONTENT OF THE ARTICLE TITLED
"SOCIOPOLITICAL
5 BIASES IN THE CONTEMPORARY SCIENTIFIC
LITERATURE
6 ON ADULT HUMAN SEXUAL BEHAVIOR WITH
CHILDREN AND
7 ADOLESCENTS" IN JAY R. FEIERMAN'S
PEDOPHILIA,
8 BIOSOCIAL DIMENSIONS.
9
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
10
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Referring to our Counterclaim,
11 which I'll ask your counsel to put in
front of
12 you --
13
MR. BROWN: Statement
of Defense and
14 Counterclaim.
15
Q MR. EASTWOOD: In paragraph 27 of our
16 Counterclaim, we have identified an
email from --
17 sorry?
18
MR. BROWN: We only
have 26 paragraphs in
19 this one so -- oh, no, Counterclaim,
sorry.
20
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. So you have
21 paragraph 27 of the Counterclaim in
front of you?
22
A Yes.
23 Q In
that paragraph 27, we have identified an email
24 that Dr. Christensen did send to Donna
Laframboise
25 on March 22nd, 2001, and perhaps it
would be better
26 to identify that document.
27 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
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1
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. Referring then to
2 tab 8 of your production, which is an
email to
3 Donna Laframboise from Ferrel
Christensen, dated
4 March 22, 2001, you have that in front
of you?
5
A Yes.
6
Q You confirm that you sent that
email to
7 Donna Laframboise?
8
A I do.
9
Q And that it was sent on March
22nd, 2001?
10
A That accords with my memory,
yes.
11
Q Did you send it to any other
persons?
12
A As indicated in the email, it
was cc'd to Senator
13 Anne Cools.
14
Q All right, and who is Senator
Anne Cools?
15
A She's a member of the Senate
of Canada who is well
16 acquainted with both me and Ms.
Laframboise.
17
Q Why did you send this email to
Senator Anne Cools?
18
A I was hoping that she would do
something by way of
19 intercession, interceding with what I
saw as a very
20 serious error that Ms. Laframboise was
about to
21 make.
22
Q When you say intercession,
could you explain a
23 little further what, in particular, you
were hoping
24 she might do?
25
A She might say something to
Donna about the harm
26 that she was about to do.
27
Q Are you aware of whether Anne
Cools knows
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1 Donna Laframboise?
2
A She knows her, yes.
3
Q How does she know Donna
Laframboise?
4
A Well, I have discussed Ms.
Laframboise with the
5
Senator a bit in times past, in
particular, I
6 believe, in connection with a lengthy
article about
7 the Senator that Ms. Laframboise had
written.
8
Q What is the title of that
article that
9
Donna Laframboise wrote about
Senator Anne Cools?
10
A I'm not certain. The phrase "Hurricane Anne" comes
11 to mind.
12
Q All right.
13
A That phrase was certainly used
there someplace, but
14 I don't remember whether
that was the whole title,
15 or part of the title, or simply
otherwise
16 prominent.
17
Q Have you included a copy of
that article in your
18 production?
19
A I have not.
20
Q I'm going to ask for an
undertaking to produce a
21 copy of the article that Dr.
Christensen just
22 referred to that was written by Donna
Laframboise
23 with respect to Senator Anne Cools.
24
A I'm not sure that I have a
copy anymore. It may
25 not be difficult to find, but I'm not
too sure. Is
26 this going to be crucial to be able to
find it?
27
Q I'm going to ask for an
undertaking.
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1
A I guess we can try, perhaps.
2
MR. BROWN: Well, it's authored by your
3 client.
Presumably, your client can produce it, if
4 she wants to produce it at trial. My client
5 doesn't know where -- he has no
recollection where
6
it was published or
stuff. I mean, he can make his
7 best efforts, but it would be much more
reliable to
8 get it directly from your own client, I
would
9 think.
10
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All
right. Well, I'll
11 withdraw the previous undertaking, and
I'll ask for
12 a different one that may be a little
more
13 reasonable, given who the author of the
article is.
14 Can you undertake to advise as to the
correct
15 identification of the article that
you've referred
16 to by title, and date, and any other
identifier
17 that might help us to produce or obtain
the article
18 that you have just mentioned?
19
A I'm certainly willing to
try. I would imagine that
20 your client would recognize it right
away, but I
21 will certainly do what I can.
22
Q From your recollection right
now, the identifiers
23 that you can remember, can you advise
as to what
24 those are?
25
A Identifiers for the article?
26
Q Yes.
27
A I believe that the phrase
"Hurricane Anne" was part
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1 of the title. It seems to me that it was in a
2 major newspaper or magazine in
Canada. That's
3 about as much as I can think of at the
moment.
4 UNDERTAKING NO.
40:
5 ADVISE AS TO THE CORRECT IDENTIFICATION
OF THE
6 ARTICLE WRITTEN BY DONNA LAFRAMBOISE
ABOUT SENATOR
7 ANNE COOLS THAT MIGHT HELP THE
DEFENDANTS TO
8 PRODUCE OR OBTAIN THE ARTICLE.
9
Q MR. EASTWOOD: If we can turn to tab 19 of
10 your production. This is an email to
11 Donna Laframboise from Ferrel
Christensen, copied
12 to a number of persons, and sent, it
appears, March
13 23rd, 2001; is that correct?
14
A Let's check the date here. That's the printing
15 date up there, is it not? Let's see, well, I guess
16 it's March 24th, but --
17
MR. BROWN: Isn't
this it here?
18
A Oh, no. Okay, now --
19
MR. BROWN: Oh, no,
that's when --
20
A She wrote on the --
21
MR. BROWN: Oh, okay.
22
A And so the 24th would be the
date that I sent it to
23 her.
24
MR. BROWN: So that must be it.
25
A Right.
26
MR. BROWN: That's
the date sent.
27
A The way my printer does it, it
puts it up here
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1 instead of all down here, so . . .
2
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Okay.
So your answer is that
3 you would have sent this email on March
24th --
4
A That's what's indicated in the
--
5
Q -- 2001, according to what it
states on the
6 document?
7
A -- printed email, yes.
8
Q Do you confirm that you sent
this email?
9 A I
do.
10
Q You sent it to Donna
Laframboise?
11
A Yes.
12
Q You also sent it to the
individuals identified in
13 the cc lines; is that correct?
14
A That's correct.
15 Q
Did you send this article to any other -- or this
16 email to any other persons?
17
A I don't believe I sent this
particular email to
18 anyone subsequently.
19
Q All right. I'm going to ask for an undertaking
20 that you review your records to
determine whether
21 or not this email was sent to persons
in addition
22 to Donna Laframboise and those people
identified in
23 the cc lines.
24
A Yes, I will do that.
25 UNDERTAKING NO.
41:
26 ADVISE WHETHER THE MARCH 24, 2001,
EMAIL WAS SENT
27 TO PERSONS IN ADDITION TO DONNA
LAFRAMBOISE AND
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1 THOSE PEOPLE IDENTIFIED IN THE CC
LINES.
2
Q MR. EASTWOOD: If you could turn to tab 37 of
3 your production, and this is an email
to
4 Gus Sleeman, sent April 3rd, 2001 --
5
A Yes.
6
Q -- by yourself, and it
contains a press release;
7 that's correct?
8
A Correct.
9
Q Would you have sent this press
release to others
10 aside from Gus Sleeman?
11
A Yes. The afternoon of April the 3rd, I sent it as
12 a press release. I faxed it to the Edmonton
13 Journal, the Calgary Sun, and the
National Post.
14
Q All right. And in addition to those locations,
15 would there be other locations that you
would have
16 sent this press release to?
17
A Not as a press release,
no. Now, if you're asking
18 whether, as in this case, I emailed it
to anyone
19 else -- is that the question, sorry?
20
Q Whether you emailed it or sent
it in any way?
21
A I sent a number of things to a
number of people
22 over time. It should all show up in the production
23 here; and so following the time that I
sent it to
24 Gus Sleeman, I do believe I sent it to
others as
25 well.
Which ones they were, I would have to find
26 out by going through the production and
reminding
27 myself.
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1
Q All right. Well, I'm going to ask for an
2 undertaking that you advise, in
addition to the
3 parties that you've already identified today
that
4 you sent this email to, that you
identify all other
5 parties that you could identify that
this email was
6 sent to at the material time.
7
A I'll do that.
8 UNDERTAKING NO. 42:
9 IDENTIFY ALL OTHER PARTIES THAT DR.
CHRISTENSEN
10 SENT THE EMAIL DATED APRIL 3RD, 2001.
11 (TAB 37 OF THE PLAINTIFF'S PRODUCTION)
12
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Tab
43 appears to be a record
13 of a chain of email communications, and
included in
14 that is an email sent on April 9th,
2001, to Doug
15 --
16
A Pierozinski.
17
Q -- Pierozinski; is that
correct?
18
A That's correct.
19
Q Can you identify any other
persons who this email
20 would have been sent to?
21
A It indicates that it was sent
to the email list
22 MESA@topica.com, and that, of course, goes out
to
23 persons unknown to me who are on that
list.
24
Q All right. And who are included on the
25 MESA@topica.com mailing list?
26
A That's a discussion list on
the Internet run by a
27 Calgary group that has interest in the
kinds of
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1
issues that ECMAS and MERGE deal
with.
2
Q Aside from that
MESA@topica.com address and Doug
3 Pierozinski, would there be others who
this email
4 was sent to?
5
A I'm quite certain I would have
sent it to -- I'm
6 quite certain I did send it to no one
else.
7
Q All right.
8
A I certainly would have had no
occasion that I can
9 think of to do so, and I believe I did
not.
10
Q I'd like you to turn to, or
have your counsel
11 provide you with a copy of your
pleading, Reply to
12 Statement of Defense and Defense to
Counterclaim.
13
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD).
14
MR. EASTWOOD: What I'm
specifically looking
15 for is a copy of the attachments that
you have in
16 the version that was served on us.
17
MR. BROWN: Filed
November 20th, 2001?
18
MR. EASTWOOD: That's correct.
19
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Your counsel has placed before
20 you a copy of your pleading, which is
titled Reply
21 to Statement of Defense.
22
A Yes.
23 Q
Also included with that pleading is, on page 5,
24 your Statement of Defense to
Counterclaim?
25
A Right.
26
Q Then turning further into the
document, there are
27 at the back a number of emails
attached. Do you
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1 see those there?
2
A Oh, okay.
3
Q I'm going to ask you to turn
to an email that
4 begins with the heading Rutherford Show
QR77?
5
A That being the one we looked
at earlier in a
6 different --
7
Q Yes. That's correct.
8
A -- setting, I guess. Can you tell us how far along
9 that is? Appendix A, B, C -- it goes D.
10
Q E-1, perhaps.
11
MR. BROWN: Here it
is.
12
A There's one right there, but
it's not the first
13 page.
There we are. Okay. It's E.
14
Q MR. EASTWOOD: If you turn to the next page,
15 there is a copy starting about halfway
down of your
16 article written, "Moral Fervor
Without Accurate
17 Knowledge Does Evil"?
18
A Yes.
19
Q All right. And then turning one further page, I'd
20 like to ask you some questions about
that, that
21 page.
22
MR. BROWN: E-3?
23
MR. EASTWOOD: That's
correct.
24
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Now, at the top of that page,
25 E-3, which is attached to your
pleadings, you've
26 written the sentence in this article:
27 "Irrational attitudes
involving sex
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1 have lead to therapies that were
2 ineffective or worse."
3 Can you advise as to which therapies
you were
4 referring to there?
5
A Probably not in great detail,
but I can try to best
6 remember as best I can at the
moment. By way of
7 background, just so it's clear why I
wasn't more
8 explicit. I expected Donna to be aware of some of
9 these therapies already. It includes things like
10 recovered memory therapy in which
psychotherapists
11 or other counselors attempt to elicit
memories of
12 child sex abuse from their clients on
the grounds
13 that these clients, having a lot of
emotional
14 problems, must have been sexually
abused as
15 children. I don't know if this speaks to you, but
16 I'm sure Donna would know what I'm
talking about,
17 so . . . in case that helps.
18
Q All right. This article was intended for
19 publication in newspapers; is that
correct?
20
A As originally written, this
was a proposed article
21 to be published in the Post, subject to
the
22 provision that I be -- I would make
changes in it
23 before publication when it became clear
exactly
24 what Donna was attacking me over.
25
Q Aside from distributing this
article to the
26 National Post, you also distributed the
article by
27 email to other parties; is that
correct?
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1
A That's certainly correct.
2
Q So your intention in doing
that was for them to
3 read the article?
4
A Indeed.
5
Q In the third paragraph, third full
paragraph on
6 that same page, which begins:
7 "It is largely for espousing
the
8 latter claim that I have been
9 attacked by Ms. Laframboise. I
10 maintain, based on years of study of
11 sexuality through research
12 literature and anthropology,
13 ethology, psychology and
sociology,
14 that the latter view is correct.
15 (Ms. Laframboise herself has not
put
16 in such an ounce of study of this
17 huge corpus. She is reacting out of
18 moral fervor.)"
19 At the time that you wrote those
sentences I just
20 read, what was your knowledge of Ms.
Laframboise's
21 training?
22
A Primarily, I was relying off
the contents,
23 including the bibliography, of her own book,
which
24 discusses a great deal of -- sexuality
a great
25 deal, but strictly in terms of popular
sources,
26 with virtually no indication of any
scientific
27 research materials mentioned
anywhere. That, and
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1 my general knowledge that her
background was in the
2 humanities and she was a journalist I
think were
3 the main facts I was relying on in
making this
4 admittedly somewhat rash statement.
5
Q In addition to the book that
she wrote -- and
6 what's the title of that book that
you're referring
7 to?
8
A The Princess At the Window.
9
Q In addition to looking at the
bibliography of
10 The Princess At the Window, did you
undertake any
11 other steps to determine what her
background and
12 studies were prior to writing that
sentence we just
13 read?
14
A I did not.
15
Q The next paragraph -- sorry,
were you going to say
16 something more?
17
A Well, again, there was some
more inference going on
18 in my mind at the time. The fact that she was
19 plainly so ignorant of child sexuality
and other
20
things were undoubtedly part
of my reasoning in
21 deciding that she did not have good
scientific
22 background on the subject. Her response, indeed,
23 was one of anger and emotion. She was not giving
24 any kind of an argument based on
facts. She was,
25 indeed, responding emotionally, and so
I think that
26 I had some good reasons for saying
this.
27
Q In the next paragraph, you
refer to a "massive
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1 meta-analysis of scientific studies of
child sex
2 abuse."
3
A Yes.
4
Q Can you advise as to the -- or
identify what that
5 massive meta-analysis was that you're
referring to?
6
A I believe there's an earlier
undertaking to do it.
7
Q Was there?
8 MR. BROWN: I think so.
9
Q MR. EASTWOOD: I apologize if I've --
10
A No, that's --
11
MR. BROWN: Yes. There's already an
12 undertaking.
13
MR. EASTWOOD: Thank
you.
14
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
15
(ADJOURNMENT)
16
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Referring again to page E-3 of
17 the emails that have been attached to
your Reply to
18 Statement of Defense and Defense to
Counterclaim,
19 and looking at the fourth paragraph on
that page,
20 in the middle of that paragraph, the
following
21 sentence has been written:
22 "The US Congress medical experts all
23 voted to condemn the
research."
24 Can you advise --
25
A Could I correct that? The US Congress, medical
26 experts all, voted to condemn it. So the "all"
27 goes with the "medical
experts" phrase, not with
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1 the "voted" word.
2
Q Okay.
3
A It's an ironic phrase I have
thrown in. I'm hoping
4 that's clear.
5
Q No, it wasn't clear, and I
thank you for pointing
6 that out.
7
A Oh, yes, very heavily ironic,
I'm afraid.
8
MR. BROWN: The
congress you're referring
9 to is elected politicians, not medical
experts; is
10 that --
11
A Right.
12
Q MR. EASTWOOD: I thank you for that
13 clarification, and I'll ask the
following question.
14 Can you identify what vote US congress
made in
15 particular with respect to the research
that you're
16 referring to?
17
A I may be able to find news
articles on it, but I
18 can't guarantee that. What I certainly remember,
19 because this study caused quite a stir,
a lot of
20 people were unhappy with its
conclusions, and among
21 the people who were unhappy were the US
Congress
22 who voted to condemn it, and in
ironically saying
23 "medical experts all," I was,
of course, saying
24 they're not medical experts.
25
Q Right.
26
A They were not relying on
scientific evidence to
27 make their judgment. They were doing something
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1 quite other.
2
Q Is it your recollection that
there was a particular
3 vote by the US Congress to specifically
condemn the
4 meta-analysis that you referred to
previously?
5
A That is my recollection, that
that was reported in
6 the news.
7
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
8
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Confirming our discussion off
9 the record, I will ask for an
undertaking that you
10 advise as to a record or records which
would show
11 the particular vote made by the US
Congress which
12 condemned the meta-analysis referred to
in that
13 paragraph of this page E-3.
14
A I will do that.
15 UNDERTAKING NO.
43:
16 ADVISE AS TO A RECORD OR RECORDS WHICH
WOULD SHOW
17 THE PARTICULAR VOTE MADE BY THE US CONGRESS
WHICH
18 CONDEMNED THE META-ANALYSIS REFERRED TO
IN THE
19 FOURTH PARAGRAPH OF PAGE E-3, WHICH IS
ATTACHED TO
20 THE PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO STATEMENT OF
DEFENSE AND
21 DEFENSE TO COUNTERCLAIM.
22
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Further on in that same
23 paragraph, you refer to:
24 "Subsequent studies continue
to draw
25 the same conclusions . . ."
26 omitting the part that's in parentheses
for now.
27 Can you advise as to what those
subsequent studies
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1 were?
2
A The one that I specifically
allude to there, I
3 should be able to identify. At this stage, I don't
4 remember others. I simply remember having run
5 across some, but I could -- I could
certainly track
6 down the one that I mention.
7
Q The one that you mention that
you're referring to
8 is the one that's identified in the
parentheses; is
9 that correct?
10
A That's correct.
11
Q Well, I'll ask for an
undertaking then that you
12 provide, first of all, a copy of the
recent paper
13 that is referred to in the parentheses,
being a
14 survey of literature by three
professors in the
15 Faculty of Medicine, at the University
of Auckland.
16
A Yes.
17 UNDERTAKING NO.
44:
18 PROVIDE A COPY OF THE SURVEY OF LITERATURE BY
19 THREE PROFESSORS IN THE FACULTY OF
MEDICINE, AT
20 THE UNIVERSITY OF AUCKLAND, REFERRED TO
IN THE
21 PARENTHESES IN THE FOURTH PARAGRAPH OF
PAGE E-3,
22 WHICH IS ATTACHED TO THE PLAINTIFF'S
REPLY TO
23 STATEMENT OF DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO
COUNTERCLAIM.
24
Q MR. EASTWOOD: In addition, I'll ask for an
25 undertaking that you review your
records and
26 perhaps your memory and identify what
articles in
27 addition to that you were relying on or
referring
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1 to when you mentioned "subsequent
studies."
2
A I could certainly try to track
something of that
3 nature down.
4 UNDERTAKING NO.
45:
5
IDENTIFY WHAT ADDITIONAL
ARTICLES DR. CHRISTENSEN
6 WAS RELYING ON OR REFERRING TO WHEN HE
MENTIONED
7 "SUBSEQUENT STUDIES" IN THE
FOURTH PARAGRAPH OF
8 PAGE E-3, WHICH IS ATTACHED TO THE
PLAINTIFF'S
9 REPLY TO STATEMENT OF DEFENSE AND
DEFENSE TO
10 COUNTERCLAIM.
11
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. In the next
12 paragraph you have written:
13 "Ms. Laframboise has herself
spoken
14 up for persons convicted of sex
15 abuse."
16 Can you advise as to what occasion she
has done
17 that?
18
A At the time I wrote those
words, I was not
19 remembering any particular article,
just
20 remembering that from time to time she
has written
21 articles doing that, and hence was
quite certain of
22 what I was saying.
23
Q All right.
24
MR. BROWN: Just
maybe to be clear, when
25 you use the phrase "spoke on
behalf of," just now
26 you said "written
articles." Do you mean
27 something --
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1
A Oh, sorry.
2
MR. BROWN: Spoken up
through her articles
3 or --
4 A
That's what I had in mind.
5
MR. BROWN: -- in
addition to her articles
6 or --
7
A No, through the articles is
what I had in mind
8 because that's what I would know about.
9
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Okay.
So when you used the
10 words "spoken up for persons
convicted of sex
11 abuse," were you conveying the
meaning that she was
12 an advocate for those people, or that
she wrote on
13 that topic, or both?
14
A She wrote on that topic. I'm not sure what would
15 be built in the word
"advocate" here, but certainly
16 that she wrote in some way or other for
their -- in
17 their interest and in their
defense. Actually, I
18 could say further that among the
articles in which
19 she did this, she was quoting Ms.
Malenfant.
20
Q And in the sense --
21
A Articles about Ms. Malenfant,
excuse me.
22
Q Right. In the sense of the meaning that you were
23 conveying in this article, what aspect
of persons
24 convicted of sex abuse was she speaking
up for?
25
A Oh, well, she was decrying the
prevalence of false
26 accusations of sex abuse that had led
to false
27 convictions.
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1
Q All right. So you weren't claiming in that
2 sentence then that she was speaking up
for people
3 who were correctly convicted for sex
abuse?
4 A
No, no, that's not what I had in mind in saying it.
5
Q Right. Going down the page a little bit, there's a
6 paragraph, begins with the words:
7 "The second part of the claim
above
8 is that negative things put into
9 children's minds about sex itself
by
10 those around them, from fear to
11 self-loathing, can itself cause
12 serious psychological hurt and
harm.
13 Hence, in particular, these
negative
14 feelings can be a dominant factor
in
15 the harm when such children are
also
16 sexually abused and can even do
more
17 harm than sex itself."
18
A Sex abuse itself.
19
Q
20 ". . . sex abuse itself. There is
21 absolutely no scientific doubt
about
22
the truth of this, huge
amounts of
23 accumulated evidence prove it,
24 though Ms. Laframboise will
25 evidently not reveal the evidence
I
26 have given."
27 Can you advise as to what the huge
amounts of
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1 accumulated evidence are that you were
referring to
2 there?
3
A Not anything specific at that
point, but I have
4 certainly read much about -- on this
subject over
5 time.
It would be hard to know where to begin, so
6
I'm not sure exactly what you
might want me to do
7 in regard to this.
8
Q Well, maybe we can do it by
way of undertaking
9 then.
Will you undertake to advise as to what
10 evidence you were referring to when you
identified
11 huge amounts of accumulated evidence?
12
A It would have to be examples
rather than everything
13 I might have seen, surely?
14
Q All right. Well --
15 MR. BROWN: Just so that you understand, I
16 mean, as he indicated earlier in his
testimony, he
17 would sit in the library in Hawaii and
read through
18 the whole, you know, history of a
journal, and, you
19 know, he would have read articles and
scanned
20 abstracts and stuff like that and made
no notes or
21 made no specific recollection, so he
wouldn't be
22 able to give you that, obviously. But presumably
23 this is a subject that's covered in his
book, and
24 he can tell you from his book where it
comes from.
25
A Look at Chapter 12 in my
book. I can give you that
26 information right now. That's where I focused on
27 that particular subject most in the
book, even
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1 though there were references and
comments made
2 elsewhere.
3
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. You've identified
4 Chapter 12 of your book as being a
source for
5 evidence with respect to the huge
amounts of
6 accumulated evidence that you referred
to in the
7 paragraph we were just discussing; is
that correct?
8
A I think that's the best
response I could give to
9 this is to say: That's it.
10
Q Chapter 12 in your book is the
chapter titled
11 "Sexual Repressiveness and
Violence"?
12
A Yes.
13
Q Right. In addition to the information contained in
14 Chapter 12 of your book that you've
just referred
15 to, would there have been other
studies, or
16 documents, or works that would have
constituted the
17 evidence you're referring to?
18 A Well, again, not that I was specifically
thinking
19 of when I said these words. I was remembering the
20 great mass of material that I had seen
over time.
21
Q Okay. And given that response then, maybe I will
22 ask whether you can identify now or by
way of
23 undertaking in a more general sense
then what was
24 the scientific evidence that you were
-- or the
25 huge amounts of evidence that you were
referring to
26 there?
27
A I'm not following.
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1
Q In other words, you're saying
that you can't, at
2 this point, other than what was in
Chapter 12,
3 identify particular pieces of evidence;
is that
4 correct?
5
A That's right, there having been
so many.
6
Q Maybe I can ask then, what
types of evidence are
7 there that you were referring to?
8
A Types of evidence are spoken
of quite thoroughly in
9 Chapter 12 again.
10
Q Right, but are there any in addition to
that?
11
A I'm really not sure how I
would respond to that
12 question. Types are hard to count. They divide up
13 in various ways, so. . .
14
Q All right.
15
A I must say I know you're not
-- you're not trying
16 to make it difficult for me, but I do
feel that
17 Chapter 12 is so thorough that there
shouldn't need
18 to be anything else for me to produce,
even though
19 I could, if pressured, look for other
examples of
20 the most I could find would be further
examples.
21
Q Okay. That's fine then.
22 Turning the page over, the first
paragraph on
23 the page that is numbered E-4 there is
a sentence
24 in parentheses there which states:
25 "Ms. Laframboise, close
collaborator
26 in preparing this attack on me, is
27 tightly allied with certain far
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1 right wing, antihomosexual
2 propagandists."
3 Can you identify who that person is
you're
4 referring to?
5
A His name is Walter Schneider.
6
Q Who is Walter Schneider?
7
A He's a long-time activist of
various stripes. In
8 particular, he has a fathers' rights
website, and
9 he has been involved in the past with
the various
10 email groups on the Internet in linking
up with
11 others to promote his views on these
subjects.
12 Does that description help as a start
at least?
13
Q Thank you.
14
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
15
Q MR. EASTWOOD: I'm handing your counsel a
16 copy of a document that we've had
photocopied as
17 agreed to by way of conversation off
the record.
18 The document is titled Pedophilia,
Biosocial
19 Dimensions. The text, I'm sorry, is titled
20 Pedophilia, Biosocial Dimensions, and
the article
21 is titled "Selected
Cross-Generational Sexual
22 Behavior in Traditional Hawai'i: A Sexological
23 Ethnography" written by Milton
Diamond. With your
24 permission, I'd like to enter that as
an exhibit in
25 these proceedings.
26
MR. BROWN: That's
the article, isn't it?
27
A That looks like it. I've never seen the published
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1 version, I guess. The prepublication copies he
2 sent me, so . . .
3
MR. EASTWOOD: May we
enter this as an
4 exhibit?
5 EXHIBIT D-7:
6 PHOTOCOPY OF "SELECTED
CROSS-GENERATIONAL SEXUAL
7 BEHAVIOR IN TRADITIONAL HAWAI'I: A SEXOLOGICAL
8 ETHNOGRAPHY," WRITTEN BY MILTON
DIAMOND, TAKEN
9 FROM THE TEXT TITLED PEDOPHILIA,
BIOSOCIAL
10 DIMENSIONS
11
Q MR. EASTWOOD: I'd ask you to look at the
12 exhibit we just entered, and if you
could turn to
13 page 441.
14 On page 441, there's a heading
titled Summary,
15 and in the first paragraph of the
summary, about
16 two-thirds of the way into the first
paragraph,
17 there appears the following sentence:
18 "The sexual desire of an
adult for a
19 nonadult, heterosexual or
20 homosexual, was accepted, and the
21 regular erotic preference by an
22 adult for a young individual
23 probably was viewed more as being
24 unusual than as being
intrinsically
25
bad."
26 Do you see where that's written?
27
A Yes.
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1
Q At the time that you wrote
your book, were you
2 aware of this sentence?
3
A I'd certainly doubt that I was
remembering this
4 particular sentence.
5
Q Was your citing of this
article in your book's
6 bibliography, to your recollection, in
connection
7 at all with the proposition in this
sentence?
8
A I think I can say with
complete certainty that it
9 was not. In fact, we've already pointed out the
10 way that I did use it, and I will look
for others,
11 but it was on a quite different
subject.
12
Q Now, earlier you had referred
in your evidence to
13 the potential for there being cultures
in which
14 sexual activity between adults and
children might
15 not be harmful, or possibly harmful; is
that
16 correct?
17
A There would certainly be
circumstances in which
18 it's not harmful, and I believe that's
what I said
19 before.
It's not automatically harmful to -- based
20 on anything that I know about the
subject, there's
21 nothing automatic about it.
22 Q
Based on your knowledge of this article and the
23 sentence that we've just read, would it
be fair to
24 say that a traditional Hawaii society,
as presented
25 in this article, would be one of those
examples of
26 a culture where sexual interactions
between adults
27 and children was not harmful?
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1
A I think we would need to
clarify the sentence a bit
2 more.
He speaks of adults and nonadults, and I
3 would certainly think that it was --
that sex
4 between what we would consider a full
adult and an
5 adolescent was not considered harmful
in Hawaii.
6 When he speaks, he does not speak
specifically of
7 children, and I'm just not sure exactly
what he did
8
have in mind, but I think
that clarification is
9 important.
10
Q Okay.
11
A He talks about a young
individual and a nonadult.
12
Q Earlier on in that paragraph,
there's a sentence
13 that reads:
14 "Adults attended physically
to the
15 sexual development of the young,
16 including the preparation of their
17 genitals."
18
A Yes.
19 Q Based on your recollection of the article,
or your
20 knowledge of the content of this
article, would it
21 be your understanding that the young
persons
22 referred to there would be prepubescent?
23
A That would make sense, yes.
24
Q All right.
25
A In my -- I would have to
reread the article.
26
Q Okay.
27
A It's been at least three years
since I read it, but
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1 this, again, has to do more with the
education of
2 the children and their physical needs
than any kind
3 of -- anything done for sexual
gratification.
4
Q Right, but it would be -- it
would be activity --
5 well, let me ask the question. Would you state
6 that that would be a sexual activity?
7
A Not in the usual sense of
having been done for
8 sexual gratification. It would be remotely similar
9 to circumcision, if that helps as a
comparison.
10 Oh, in fact, the sentence is -- occurs
there:
11 "These sexual interactions
between
12 adults and the young from
society's
13 perspective, were seen as
14 benefitting the young individual
15 rather than as gratifying the
16 adult."
17 I think that clarifies a bit further.
18
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
19
Q MR. EASTWOOD: So you're pointing out a
20
distinction then between the
activity of genital
21 preparation, referred to in this
subparagraph, and
22 the sexual desire of adults for
nonadults referred
23 to also in this paragraph with respect
to the age
24 of the individuals involved.
25
A I'm afraid I lost the thread
in your question.
26
Q You agree that the activity of
genital preparation
27 referred to where adults attend to the
sexual
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1 development of the young, including the
preparation
2 of the genitals, that that refers to
prepubescent
3 persons?
4
A I certainly believe so, based
on my memory of the
5 article.
6
Q And that in the sentence that
starts:
7 "The sexual desire of an adult
for a
8 nonadult . . ."
9 you identified the lack of specificity
with respect
10 to the age of nonadults. That could include
11 adolescents; is that fair to say?
12
A They would at least be
included, I would say, and
13 judging from the wording.
14
Q Can I ask for an undertaking
that you advise as to
15 your understanding of the word
"nonadult" as used
16 by Milton Diamond in this article?
17
A You mean ask him about it?
18
Q No, no. Upon review of the article, advise as to
19 whether or not there is anything in the
article
20 that defines what was meant by
"nonadult"?
21
A I could do that. The context, other uses, might
22 clarify this use.
23
Q Right, and I appreciate that.
24 UNDERTAKING NO.
46:
25 ADVISE AS TO DR. CHRISTENSEN'S
UNDERSTANDING OF
26 THE WORD "NONADULT" AS USED
BY MILTON DIAMOND IN
27 THE ARTICLE TITLED "SELECTED
CROSS-GENERATIONAL
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1 SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN TRADITIONAL
HAWAI'I: A
2 SEXOLOGICAL ETHNOGRAPHY."
3
Q MR. EASTWOOD: All right. I'd like you to
4 turn to page 436 of the article,
please, and about
5 the first, second, third complete
paragraph there
6 has the following sentence:
7 "Peripubertal females, in
many
8 cultures of Oceania, were noted to
9 often be publicly sexually active
10 with adults . . . reported
11 copulation in public in Hawai'i
12 between an adult male and female
13 estimated to be 11 or 12 'without
14 the least sense of it being
indecent
15 or improper.'"
16 Would you agree that that sentence
describes sexual
17 activity between adults and children?
18
A No. Of course, in fact, he uses the word
19 "peripubertal."
20
Q All right.
21
A That being around the age of
puberty, so I think
22 that generally excludes children,
although there's
23 clearly no sharp dividing line.
24
Q Is it not the case that
peripubertal means some who
25 are not yet in puberty and some who are
in puberty?
26
A "Peri" meaning about
or around. It's around the --
27 around the age of puberty.
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Q Right.
2
A And so --
3
Q Is it fair to say that a child
is someone who
4 hasn't started puberty?
5
A Prepubertal would be a good
way to describe a
6 child, rather than peripubertal.
7
Q And, therefore, if an adult
has sex with
8 peripubertal persons, they may be
having sex with
9 someone who hasn't entered puberty; is
that
10 correct?
11
A Again, it's a fine
distinction, but it would be --
12 since puberty is not a sudden,
overnight event,
13 it's a somewhat gradual process, it
would
14 conceivably include someone who is
almost ready to
15 enter puberty, I guess. Again, it's a -- I don't
16 really know his usage of terms, but the
answer
17 could be, you could say, well, yes,
just almost
18 pubertal would fit, I guess.
19
Q You agree that the activity
that Milton Diamond is
20 referring to in that paragraph is
activity for
21 sexual gratification?
22
A Oh, that certainly appears to
be the case, yes.
23
Q Referring to the same page,
the first complete
24 paragraph, I'll just read that for the
record:
25 "Virginity was considered to
be a
26 virtue for female chiefs only,
where
27 genealogy was crucial. With this
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1 point in mind, ali'i -
particularly
2 the firstborn of either sex, with
3 special status rights - often were
4 betrothed while they were quite
5 young. Sometimes the age difference
6 between the betrothed was
7 significant. Handy reported the
8 acceptance of pairings in which
the
9 female was hardly of walking age
and
10 the male was old enough to be her
11 grandfather, as well as pairings
in
12 which tiny males were betrothed to
13 elderly matrons. Such young
14 individuals obviously did not have
15 to restrain themselves as their
16 libido matured, but it also is
17 possible that mechanisms, such as
18 the Westermarck effect, dampened
19 eroticism if the individual was
20 betrothed at a very young age."
21 In this paragraph, would you agree that
22 Milton Diamond is referring to sexual
activity
23 between adults and children?
24
A I would not agree with that.
25
Q All right.
26 A
He's talking about betrothal, which happens, I
27 might add, in India to this day in
their arranged
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1 marriages. It's a long time before they're ever
2 consummated.
3
Q Is there anything in that
paragraph that
4 specifically excludes sexual activity
between those
5 that were betrothed?
6
A Nothing that specifically
excludes it, no. I think
7 he makes the remark that we read
earlier about it
8 being very rare to have this sort of
thing, but
9 there's nothing in that paragraph that
specifically
10 excludes it.
11
Q At the bottom of that same
page, there's a
12 paragraph that begins with the
following words:
13 "Suggs cited many cases of
full
14 heterosexual intercourse in public
15 between adults and prepubertal
16 individuals in Polynesia."
17 You would agree that that sentence
refers to sexual
18 activity for the purpose of sexual
gratification
19 between adults and children?
20
A That one certainly does.
21
Q Would it be fair to say that
in the Hawaiian
22 culture, or, sorry, the culture that is
being
23 referred to there, that such activity
was not
24 viewed as wrong?
25
A Evidently, and certainly from
what he is saying,
26 that is the case.
27
Q In your view would such
activity be wrong in that
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1 culture?
2
A In the conditions, as I've said
before, where there
3 is no appreciable danger of harm being
caused, then
4 I would say that it's not wrong. This is my
5 general view about what makes for moral
rightness
6 and wrongness. There are -- I would have to
7 qualify that to be, by knowing more
about the
8 actual conditions there, but you've
explicitly said
9 that there's no harm, so it follows
from what I've
10
said that it wouldn't be
wrong.
11
Q Is there anything in your book
that's inconsistent
12 with the view that the sexual activity
referred to
13 in the paragraph we were just
discussing between
14 adults and children is wrong?
15
A Could I get you to repeat
that, please? Anything
16 in the book that?
17
Q Is there anything in your
book, Pornography,
18 The Other Side, that is inconsistent
with the view
19 that the kind of sexual activity
referred to in
20 this paragraph between adults and
children is
21 wrong?
22
A Okay, it's still a long
sentence. Anything in the
23 book that conflicts with the view that
adult/child
24 sex is wrong?
25
Q The type of adult/child sex
referred to in this
26 paragraph.
27
A This specifically here? Again, because my book
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1 doesn't discuss such things, there
wouldn't be
2 anything to directly conflict. What I do talk
3 about in the book is the principles
that for me
4 determine what is right and wrong, and
this all
5 goes back to the likelihood of harm and
so on. So
6 except within that -- except in that
very general
7 way, I would say there's nothing in the
book that
8 speaks to this one way or the other.
9
Q I'm handing to your counsel a
copy of an article
10 titled "Sociopolitical Biases in
the Contemporary
11 Scientific Literature on Adult Human
Sexual
12 Behavior With Children and
Adolescents," written by
13 Paul Okami. I would ask if you have any objections
14 to entering that document as an exhibit
in these
15 proceedings?
16
MR. BROWN: No. That's the article that's
17 referenced in your book?
18
A It certainly appears to be,
yes.
19
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Can that be entered as the
20 next exhibit? Just for the record, I understand
21 you haven't had a chance to look
through every page
22 of that. I think what would be fair then is, in
23 the future when you review a copy of
that exhibit
24 or that exhibit, if there's any
inaccuracies or
25 omissions, obviously those could be
corrected.
26
MR. BROWN: Oh, you mean in terms of the
27 copying of the pages?
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MR. EASTWOOD: Yes.
2
3 EXHIBIT D-8:
4 COPY OF AN ARTICLE TITLED
"SOCIOPOLITICAL BIASES
5 IN THE CONTEMPORARY SCIENTIFIC
LITERATURE ON ADULT
6 HUMAN SEXUAL BEHAVIOR WITH CHILDREN AND
7 ADOLESCENTS" TAKEN FROM THE TEXT
PEDOPHILIA,
8 BIOSOCIAL DIMENSIONS
9
Q MR. EASTWOOD: With respect to Exhibit D-8, I
10 would ask for an undertaking that you
advise, upon
11 reviewing your book, what portions or
passages in
12 your book may have been based on the
content of
13 this article in Exhibit D-8 which was
identified in
14 your bibliography.
15
A Passages based on the content
of this article?
16
Q That's correct.
17
A Yes.
18
Q Thank you.
19 UNDERTAKING NO.
47:
20 AFTER REVIEWING PORNOGRAPHY, THE OTHER
SIDE,
21 ADVISE WHAT PORTIONS OR PASSAGES IN THE
BOOK MAY
22 HAVE BEEN BASED ON THE CONTENT OF
EXHIBIT D-8.
23
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
24
(ADJOURNMENT)
25
Q MR. EASTWOOD: In your book, you have used
26 the following terms in the section
titled "Sex and
27 Young People," and I would suggest
probably
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1 throughout your book, terms such as
"young people,"
2 "childhood,"
"adolescents," "nonadult," "minor,"
3 and "children."
4 My question is, in using those
terms, did you
5 have particular definitions associated
with those
6 terms that made the use of them
consistent in your
7 book?
8
A I believe I did use them
consistently in the book,
9 young people and minor
referring to both
10 adolescents and children, in case that
answers your
11 question.
12
Q And childhood?
13
A Childhood, again about
children, not adolescents.
14
Q If you could just answer, and
perhaps we've covered
15 this previously a little bit, but what
the defining
16 characteristics of those groups are
again?
17
A Again, there's no sharp division
in nature, but the
18 onset of puberty is pretty well what I
had in mind
19 in distinguishing adolescents from
children.
20 Teenagers pretty well speaks for
itself, and it
21 roughly corresponds to the period
following the
22 onset of puberty, but only
roughly. There's
23 certainly a lot of variation.
24
Q So when you refer to young
people, would that
25 include children, or would that not
include
26 children?
27
A I believe my usage was
consistently to include
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1 children when I said young people. I can't swear
2 that I didn't slip at some point, but
that would
3 have been my -- that, I believe, was my
pattern.
4
Q Minors would include both
adolescents and children?
5
A That, I think, is pretty
standard usage, and my
6 usage.
7
Q Nonadult would include
children and adolescents?
8
A That would be my usage.
9
Q All right. Just referring, first of all, to some
10 documents you provided to us, as
included in your
11 Supplemental Affidavit of Records, and,
in
12 particular, a document included in
section 102, and
13 you may not need to refer to it here, I
think. I'm
14 referring to a document that identifies
the
15 following book, the title is Harmful to
Minors:
16 The Perils of Protecting Children From
Sex,
17 University of Minnesota Press,
Copyright 2002 by
18 Judith Levine.
19 At the time you wrote your book in
1990, did
20 you have any acquaintance with the work
of
21 Judith Levine?
22
A No, I did not.
23
Q Okay. I'm going to look now at some of the
24 documents, just briefly, that you've
provided in
25 your answers to undertakings, and, in
particular,
26 with respect to undertaking number 3
there was a
27 number of articles that you've
provided, and I
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1 don't know if you have copies of those
with you.
2 The article I wanted to refer to is the
article
3 titled "Cultural and Ideological
Bias in
4 Pornography."
5
A In "Pornography Research"
that should read.
6
Q That's correct.
7
A Was there a misprint there?
8
Q So you have a copy of the
article, "Cultural and
9 Ideological Bias in Pornography
Research" in front
10 of you?
11
A Yes.
12
Q And that's an article you
wrote?
13
A That is correct.
14
Q When did you write that
article?
15
A Well, the date on the page
there pretty well
16 narrows it down. It was published in 1990, and
17 that pretty well puts it into the year
or two
18 preceding 1990.
19
Q If I can ask you to turn to
the back of the article
20 to the section of notes.
21
A Notes.
22
Q And the first note which
reads:
23 "This point was somehow
missed in a
24 reply to an earlier article of
mine
25 on the subject of bias and
26 pornography research."
27 Can you advise, have you produced
already a copy of
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1 that earlier article that you referred
to there?
2
A I'm not remembering offhand,
so we might have to
3 look at the --
4
Q We can make an undertaking.
5
A -- origin of that.
6
MR. BROWN: Maybe if
we get out your c.v.,
7 we can identify what that article would
have been.
8 It's an article that it mentions
in that note,
9 is it?
Not a book, article?
10
A It does say
"article", yes.
11 I appear to be referring to the
article listed
12 as "Christensen 1986," which
would be "Sexual
13 Callousness Re-Examined," in the
Journal of
14 Communication. So unless what appears on the
15 surface to be the case is somehow not,
that would
16 be the answer to your question.
17
MR. EASTWOOD: And you
have provided us a
18 copy of that article.
19
MR. BROWN: That's
the very next one.
20
MR. EASTWOOD: Right.
21
A Yes.
22
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Thank you. Maybe I'll ask for
23 the undertaking. If you identify at some point
24 that that wasn't the article referred
to in that
25 footnote, that you could provide that
article to
26 us?
27
A Surely. Surely.
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1 UNDERTAKING NO.
48:
2 IF THE ARTICLE "SEXUAL CALLOUSNESS
RE-EXAMINED"
3 WAS NOT THE ARTICLE REFERRED TO IN THE
FOOTNOTES
4 FOLLOWING THE ARTICLE TITLED
"CULTURAL AND
5 IDEOLOGICAL BIAS IN PORNOGRAPHY
RESEARCH," PROVIDE
6 THE ARTICLE THAT IS BEING REFERRED TO
IN THAT
7 FOOTNOTE.
8
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Referring in that same
9 article, "Cultural and Ideological
Bias in
10 Pornography Research," to the
references also
11 contained at the end of the document,
on the top of
12 page 375 there's cited a work which I
think is
13 indicated that you authored titled
"Effects of
14 Pornography, The Debate
Continues," appearing in
15
the Journal of
Communication, on pages 186, 187; do
16 you see that.
17
A Oh, okay. All right.
Yes.
18
Q Have you provided that to us
in your undertakings
19 or production?
20
A I suspect I did not, and the
reason would be that
21 it was a very brief rejoinder to a
rejoinder.
22
Q All right.
23
A And because I -- again, I
could be mistaken in my
24 memory, but it seems fairly clear,
because it was
25 so brief I never listed it in my c.v.
for
26 professional purposes. It wouldn't have had any
27 value there, and that's why -- it could
be why I
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1 overlooked it now.
2
Q Well, I'll ask for an
undertaking that you provide
3 us with a copy of the article titled
"Effects of
4 Pornography, the Debate
Continues."
5
A I should be able to do
that. Even if I haven't
6 kept it, I should be able to get it
from the
7 library.
8
Q Thank you.
9 UNDERTAKING NO.
49:
10 PROVIDE A COPY OF THE ARTICLE TITLED
"EFFECTS OF
11 PORNOGRAPHY, THE DEBATE
CONTINUES."
12
Q MR. EASTWOOD: With respect to undertaking
13 number 6, you have provided us a copy
of a document
14 titled "Alberta Societies Act,
Equitable Child
15 Maintenance and Access Society Bylaws,
Effective
16 May 1st, 2001." I'd ask your counsel to put a copy
17 of that document in front of you.
18
A Yes.
19
Q I'd like to first of all ask,
is it your
20 understanding that these bylaws would
not have been
21 in place at the time, in March of 2001; is
that
22 correct?
23
A Well, these are the bylaws
that were passed at the
24 annual general meeting, which was in
March of 2001.
25
Q But they say at the top,
Effective May 1st, 2001.
26
A Well, passed. The effective date for -- being
27 later.
For reasons I don't understand, the
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1 effective date indicated here is later
than the
2 time they were passed, but this was --
wait a
3 minute.
I should maybe stop and think here.
I'm
4
wondering if something might
have been added
5 subsequently. I can be pretty sure that these are
6 basically the bylaws as passed on that
date, but
7 this effective date suggests that maybe
there was
8 some further change made afterwards, so
I have to
9 be careful about that.
10
Q All right.
11
A But basically they would be, I
think I can safely
12 say, basically the bylaws passed on
that day.
13
Q These would be the same --
this document would be
14 the same bylaws that were passed in
March of 2003?
15
A Basically. As I say, I'm wondering --
16
Q Basically, yes.
17 A
I'm wondering, like you, about why the effective
18 date would be later, and I don't
recall.
19
Q I want to ask you a question
with respect to 5.2,
20 which reads:
21 "The board may, by a
two-thirds
22 majority vote, revoke the
membership
23 of any member for conduct not in
24 keeping with the purpose and
25 objective of the Society or with
26 good order within the
Society. A
27 person whose membership privileges
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1 are under reconsideration shall be
2 given 30 days notice in writing
and
3 opportunity to speak before the
4 board before any such action is
5 taken."
6 Is it your understanding that this
bylaw was in
7 effect in March of 2003?
8
A It is my understanding, yes.
9
Q All right.
10
MR. BROWN: March of
2003?
11
A 2001.
12
Q MR. EASTWOOD: Thank you, March of 2001.
13
A Interesting. I had forgotten about that.
14
Q In your previous Examination
for Discovery, you
15 referred to an article titled, or a
paper titled
16 "Defining Sexual Sophistry"
delivered at a meeting
17 of the Society For Scientific
Study. Has that
18 document been provided to us?
19
A No. I was unable to locate a copy.
20
Q All right. And do you know if a copy -- why were
21 you unable to locate a copy?
22
A Well, all I can do is
speculate. As we indicated
23 in a recent letter covering some of
these topics, I
24 indicated -- or, sorry, I'm -- at some
point, I
25 indicated that many of the ideas that
were used in
26 that oral paper wound up in a later
publication,
27 and I speculated that I may have failed
to keep a
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1 copy because of that, but it was only
speculation.
2
Q Okay.
3 A
Why I could not find a copy, I don't know for
4 certain.
5
Q So the paper titled
"Defining Sexual Sophistry"
6 that you referred to in your previous
Examination
7 wasn't a paper that was published?
8
A No. No.
9
Q It was, in fact, notes or an
oral presentation you
10 made?
11
A It was an oral presentation
only.
12
Q You're stating that you have
not kept copies of
13 that?
14
A Well, I may have misfiled it,
but in any case --
15
Q You can't find it?
16
A -- I couldn't find it in any
of the places it
17 should have been in when I looked.
18
Q All right. Thank you.
19 Can you advise of instances where,
as a result
20 of the National Post article being
published, you
21 have suffered occasions of public
humiliation?
22 A
Occasions of public humiliation.
This might have
23 to be -- the answer might have to be
finessed a
24 bit, but because it was as a result of
the behavior
25 of Donna Laframboise in preparing to
publish the
26 article that I was publicly humiliated
by things
27 that were said on the radio
specifically and things
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1 that were hinted at in publication
elsewhere that
2 otherwise would not have occurred had
it not been
3 for her plans to publish that article.
4 It didn't come out very well, but . . .
5
Q At those times, can you
describe the feelings of
6 humiliation that you had?
7
A Well, great humiliation and
distress. When it is
8 being hinted that you have very
unsavory views,
9 it's painful.
10
Q How long did that -- did those
feelings of public
11 humiliation continue? Are you still feeling
12 publicly humiliated because of the article?
13
A I don't go around from day to
day feeling that. I
14 do worry about things coming up from
unexpected
15 quarters, so in that sense it stays
with me, but
16 it's not as if I were feeling distress
constantly
17 as opposed to intermittently
remembering what might
18 happen.
19
Q Can you recall occasions where
you felt distress
20 because of the publication of the
article?
21 A
Well, again, when you say "because of the
22 publication," that includes
occasions before the
23 publication, but nevertheless because
it was --
24
Q Let me put it this way
then. Can you remember
25 occasions, specific occasions because
of the
26 statements that you've complained of in
your
27 Statement of Claim, where you felt
distress?
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1
A Well, specifically, the
statement made to
2 Mr. Bouvier that I condone child sex
abuse, the
3 statement, or insinuation, or however
one may
4 describe it at this point, that caused
incredible
5 distress to me, and, as I believe I've
written
6 someplace, I couldn't sleep the night
before the
7 article was originally planned to be
published.
8
Q Did you have other symptoms of
distress?
9
A There's feelings of anguish,
there's feelings of
10 helplessness and violation. These things are, I
11 think, fairly common to the human
condition, so I'm
12 not quite sure how I should answer
differently from
13 that.
14
Q Do you recall that the
feelings of distress were so
15 significant that it prevented you from
doing your
16 normal activities?
17
A To a very great degree, at
least by being
18 distracted, I have had these kinds of
feelings ever
19 since.
When your mind constantly has to go back to
20 dealing with this problem, it becomes
part of your
21 life, even if it's not every moment of
the day.
22 Again, I'm not quite sure what you're
reaching for,
23 and I'm not quite sure the best way to
articulate
24 an answer.
25
Q Well, was there a time when
you were not able,
26 because of the stress you felt
resulting from the
27 publication of the statements you've
complained
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1 about, was there a time when you were
not able to
2 work?
3
A No, no time when I couldn't
work at all, as opposed
4 to times when I felt nervous and
distracted because
5 of it.
6
Q You mentioned one occasion,
being the night before
7 the article was published in the
National Post,
8 when you didn't sleep. Were there other occasions
9 when the distress related to the things
you've
10 complained about caused you to lose
sleep?
11
A I don't remember specific
occasions at this point.
12 That one certainly stands out in my
memory. That
13 would be as much as I could say.
14
Q Can you advise of any income
that you have lost
15 that you attribute to the statements
that you've
16 complained about in your Statement of
Claim?
17
A I think it's safe to say that
I have not lost any
18 income as a result of these matters
because, being
19
retired, I had no intentions of
earning income from
20 other sources than my retirement
income.
21
Q Can you advise of any loss of
opportunities that
22 you have suffered as a result of the
statements
23 that you've complained of in your
Statement of
24 Claim?
25
A The opportunities would
primarily be those that
26 I've mentioned already elsewhere. The work that I
27 have been doing and was planning to
continue to do
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1 involved a great deal of contacting of
people in
2
positions of authority, and
that has been greatly
3 reduced because of my fears about what
they have
4 been told, or, more likely, what they
might hear
5 later on about me because of the
publication of the
6 article.
7
Q You've provided to us in your
production
8 correspondence, for instance with the
Chief Justice
9 of the Province of Alberta, and in
addition to that
10 instance are there other instances that
you can
11 specifically refer to where you've lost
12 opportunities because of the articles
that you
13 complained of?
14
A Where I specifically refrained
from approaching one
15 of these people that I just spoke of or
--
16
Q Yes.
17
A I might have to work on
that. The . . .
18
Q Maybe I'll ask for an
undertaking.
19
A It's more of -- well, it's
more of an -- it's more
20 of an ongoing sort of thing where you
just sort of
21 get in the habit of not doing things
that you would
22 otherwise do, and that makes it pretty
hard to
23
think of specific instances,
I'm afraid.
24
Q And is that --
25
A And I don't want to be too
negative. I might be
26 able to come up with some meetings that
I failed to
27 go to or something like that, so I
could take an
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1 undertaking in this regard.
2
Q I'll ask for an undertaking
that you advise as to
3 specific opportunities to partake in
activities
4 that you otherwise would have partaken
in have been
5 lost to you because of the publication
of the
6 statements you've complained of in the
article.
7
A Yes, that's a fair request.
8 UNDERTAKING NO.
50:
9 ADVISE AS TO SPECIFIC OPPORTUNITIES TO
PARTAKE IN
10 ACTIVITIES THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN
OTHERWISE WOULD
11 HAVE PARTAKEN IN THAT HAVE BEEN LOST TO
HIM
12 BECAUSE OF THE PUBLICATION OF THE
STATEMENTS HE
13 HAS COMPLAINED OF IN THE ARTICLE.
14
Q MR. EASTWOOD: In addition, I'll ask for an
15 undertaking that you provide any
instances, aside
16 from the letter from the Chief Justice
which you've
17 provided, which you claim shows that
opportunities
18 have been denied to you by others
because of the
19 statements that you've complained about
in your
20 Statement of Claim.
21
A Sorry, I lost what the
undertaking is.
22
MR. EASTWOOD: Can you read
it back?
23
THE COURT REPORTER: (By
Reading)
24 "Q In addition, I'll ask for an
25 undertaking that you provide any
26 instances, aside from the letter
27
from the Chief Justice
which you've
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1 provided, which you claim shows
that
2
opportunities have been
denied to
3 you by others because of the
4 statements that you've complained
5 about in your Statement of
Claim."
6
A Okay. I can probably provide instances, but they
7 wouldn't be the sorts of things for
which I would
8 have documentary evidence, as I do in
the case of
9 the Chief Justice. It would just be perhaps my
10 memory of something, with no material
evidence.
11
Q MR. EASTWOOD: That would be fine. That
12 would be fine.
13 UNDERTAKING NO.
51:
14 PROVIDE ANY INSTANCES, ASIDE FROM THE
LETTER FROM
15 THE CHIEF JUSTICE, WHICH DR.
CHRISTENSEN CLAIMS
16 SHOWS THAT OPPORTUNITIES HAVE BEEN
DENIED TO HIM
17 BY OTHERS BECAUSE OF THE STATEMENTS
THAT HE HAS
18 COMPLAINED ABOUT IN HIS STATEMENT OF
CLAIM.
19
Q MR. EASTWOOD: And have those opportunities
20 that you're speaking of as having been
lost, is
21 that something that has continued up to
the present
22 day.
23 A
Well, yes, indeed. Not
opportunities that come to
24 me but rather opportunities that I was
not able to
25 seek out would be a clearer way of
putting it.
26
Q Okay. And do you have any recent examples of
27 opportunities that you were not able to
seek out
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1 because of the statements that you
complained about
2 in the Statement of Claim?
3
A I may be able to think of some
specific ones that I
4 could list, but I would have to work on
it.
5
Q Okay. Well, I think that's included in the
6 previous undertaking.
7
A I thought so, yes.
8
MR. BROWN: Yes.
9
Q MR. EASTWOOD: After the article was
10 published in April of 2003, can you advise
as to --
11
MR. BROWN: 2001.
12
MR. EASTWOOD: 2001,
thank you.
13
Q MR. EASTWOOD: -- what occurred with the
14 ECMAS group in Edmonton?
15
A After the article was
published?
16
Q What occurred?
17
A Everything that occurred or --
18
Q If you could recount whether
the activities --
19 first of all, did the activities of
ECMAS continue
20
after April 2001?
21
A Yes, they did.
22
Q Do they continue to the
present day?
23
A They do.
24
Q Have the activities of -- did
the activities of
25 ECMAS Edmonton, after the article
appeared in April
26 2001, decline in terms of volume, or
stay the same,
27 or increase?
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1
A They have certainly
declined. In terms of the
2 regular members of the group, they have
continued
3 on, but we have certainly been able to
deal with
4 far fewer people that we wanted to help
than we
5 were doing before.
6
Q And what, in your view, is the
cause of that?
7
A I attribute it directly and
indirectly to the
8 article and the events surrounding the
article.
9
Q It's your opinion that that
effect continues to
10 this day?
11
A That's correct.
12
Q What about your own
involvement with ECMAS
13 following the publication of the
article, did you
14 stay involved?
15
A Yes, I have stayed involved.
16
Q And you have stayed involved
from April of 2001 to
17 the present date?
18
A That's correct.
19
Q What's the nature of your
involvement been since
20 April 2001?
21
A It is very much the same as
before in terms of
22 going to the meetings and helping
people who
23 contact us, and so on.
24
Q Since the article was
published in April 2001, have
25 people in ECMAS ever identified to you
concerns
26 with respect to your views in the book
and your
27 participation at ECMAS?
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1
A I believe they have not. As I think I indicated
2 before, they were inclined to believe
what I said
3 about the contents of my book. A few of them
4 actually looked at it without getting
back and
5 commenting to me further, and they
certainly have
6 not raised it as a negative concern with
me since
7 then.
8
Q Has [Tim] Adams maintained his
involvement with
9 ECMAS following the time period of
April 2001?
10
A He has.
11
Q Up to the present date?
12
A To the present day.
13
Q And has his involvement
changed following the
14 publication of the article?
15
A It has decreased considerably
in terms of his
16 attendance at support group meetings.
17
Q And do you know the reason for
that?
18
A I have -- I have an impression
that, like the rest
19 of us, he was very discouraged by all
of this, and
20 when you're discouraged it's harder to
keep going.
21 If you're -- if you become more cynical
about
22 people's behavior and chances of doing
good, you
23 may be well be discouraged, but I have
not
24 specifically asked him if that is the
reason, if
25 that answers the question.
26
Q Since April 2001, have you
continued to be involved
27 with MERGE?
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1
A I have indeed.
2
Q Have your activities with
MERGE changed
3 significantly since April 2001?
4
A In terms of the attempts at
contacting influential
5 people, I've already addressed that;
but the basic
6 activities, running meetings and things
like that,
7 have continued on because I'm still
president, and
8 there's a somewhat lesser degree of
activity
9 because of my attention being taken
away more than
10 it was before, but the same kinds of
things, though
11 not in the same degree, I'm still
doing.
12
Q Did the publication of the
statements you've
13 complained about in your Statement of
Claim cause
14 you irreparable harm to your activities
with ECMAS?
15
A They certainly harmed the
activities that I was
16
doing through ECMAS in terms of
hurting the good
17 things that we could have done and were
planning to
18 do.
We had great plans to increase the work of
19 ECMAS very greatly, and instead it
decreased. I'm
20 not sure if that's quite what you're
asking, but
21 I'm still fully involved with ECMAS
though we're
22 not doing nearly as much as we were
before and
23 certainly not doing as much as we had
planned to
24 do.
25
Q Can you give instances of
where your professional
26 reputation has been harmed by the
publication of
27 the statements you've complained about?
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A When you say my
"professional reputation," you're
2 thinking of my work as a philosopher
and the kind
3 of --
4
Q Well, I'm referring to your
use of the term
5 "professional reputation" in
your Statement of
6 Claim.
7
A Yes, of course. In terms of specific examples, I
8 guess the answer to that is no. It's the sort of
9 thing where one expects to be harmed;
but to give
10 you specific examples that I definitely
know about,
11 that, I believe, I cannot do.
12 Q
Have any of your colleagues ever identified the
13 article as a source of concern for them
to you?
14
A It seems to me that one or two
of them raised the
15 issue to me, but these were people that
I know
16 pretty well, and they did not give
indication that
17 they had lost any esteem for me as a
result and
18 seemed to be open to my saying that the
article was
19 scurrilous and not to be believed. Again, these
20 are colleagues that I actually worked
with in my
21 department, and it's -- I'm much more
worried about
22 those whom I do not know well when it
comes to my
23 reputation.
24
Q But you don't have any
instances of where those
25 people have addressed that with you
directly?
26
A I have none.
27
Q Do you have any secondhand
information of that
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1 nature where a colleague has told you
that another
2 of their acquaintances or colleagues
has
3 communicated that they think less of
you because of
4 the article?
5
A I have none, but I would like
to add that because
6 I'm retired and seldom get to campus
anymore,
7 seldom deal with these colleagues,
there wouldn't
8 be much occasion for them to tell me
anything about
9 any other subject as well as that one.
10
Q Can you advise as to specific
instances which show
11 that your personal reputation has been
harmed by
12 the publication of the statements
you've complained
13 about?
14
A I think the main ones have
already been mentioned,
15 the difference in treatment of me by
members of
16 Canada's government. I take it you're asking for
17 further examples, or do I have your
question
18 understood right?
19
Q Well, I'm specifically
focusing on personal
20 reputation.
21
A Personal.
22
Q In terms of perhaps friends,
or family members, or
23 people who know you personally who have
advised you
24 that this article has made them think
differently
25 about you?
26
A I think it's safe to say the
answer is no. People
27 that are friends and know me well don't
have to
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1 rely on what they read in the paper for
their
2 judgment of me.
3
Q Outside of those friends and
people who know you
4
well then, are there examples
of others then who
5 you can advise have indicated that
their view of
6 your reputation has changed because of
the article?
7
A Since I was first asked this
same basic question in
8 the first session, I have not thought
of any
9 further examples.
10
Q Okay. When you say "first session,"
you're
11 referring to the Examination for
Discovery in
12 September 2003; is that correct?
13
A That's correct.
14
Q Have you suffered any specific
expenses or monetary
15 losses for which you intend to make a
claim as a
16 result of the statements you've
complained about in
17 your Statement of Claim?
18
A We've already agreed that
there's no loss of
19 income.
There certainly have been expenses in
20 connection with the lawsuit, but I
imagine you're
21 not alluding to those.
22
Q Aside from legal expenses.
23
A So, and, again, these would be
personal monetary
24 losses as opposed to money we were
hoping to get
25 for ECMAS perhaps, if I have you right?
26
Q Yes.
27
A Then the answer, I think, is
safely -- can be
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1 safely said to be no.
2
Q Following up on your comment
about ECMAS, not that
3 they are a party to this lawsuit, but
to your
4 knowledge has ECMAS lost opportunities
for income
5 or resources because of the publication
of the
6 article in the National Post?
7
A I would say very probably, at
least on the basis
8 that I alluded to earlier that ECMAS
was planning
9 to make application for funding of
various kinds to
10 do of a lot of -- a lot of good things,
and when
11 your name has been smeared like this,
you feel as
12 if there's not much hope, so you don't make
the
13 application.
14
Q Are there any instances that
you're aware of where
15 funds for ECMAS were denied by the
funder because
16 of the publication of the article?
17
A No, I'm quite sure there are
none. I know that
18 plans that were made to do -- to get
funding, for
19 example, to get a casino license, have
just been
20 dragged down and put on hold out of the
general
21 feeling of helplessness and
hopelessness that came
22 over the group as a result of these
events; but
23 since they never got to the point of
finishing
24 applications, they were not turned
down. By the
25 way, I wouldn't -- sorry, that's
adequate.
26
Q With respect to MERGE, are you
aware of any
27 instances where MERGE was denied
funding because of
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1 the publication of the article?
2
A There were none.
3
MR. EASTWOOD: All
right. Subject to your
4
provision of the answers to
undertakings that you
5 have agreed to provide, and any
questions that
6 might arise from those, and also
subject to your
7 provision of further documents which
might lead to
8 further questions, we would advise that
the
9 Examination is concluded.
10
MR. BROWN: Thanks.
11
A Thanks.
12
13
14
15
------------------------------------------------------
16 PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED SUBJECT TO
UNDERTAKINGS
17 AND PROVISION OF FURTHER
DOCUMENTS
18 AT 4:20 P.M., 18TH FEBRUARY,
2005
19
------------------------------------------------------
20
21 MR. KOZAK EXAMINES THE WITNESS 111
22 MR. EASTWOOD EXAMINES THE WITNESS 245
23
24
25
26
27
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1
CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPT
2
3 I, the undersigned, hereby certify
that the
4 foregoing pages are a true and faithful
transcript
5
of the proceedings taken down by me in shorthand and
6
transcribed from my shorthand notes to the best of my
7
skill and ability.
8 Dated at the City of Edmonton,
Province of
9
Alberta, this 1st day of March, 2005.
10
11
12
13
14
______________________________
15 D. L. Ragan, CSR(A)
16 Official Court
Reporter/
17 Examiner
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
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