[As noted elsewhere, this
professionally produced document has been altered in one respect, replacing the
names of certain individuals by brief descriptors in brackets to protect their
identity.]
Action No. 0103-14569
IN THE COURT OF QUEEN'S
BENCH OF
JUDICIAL DISTRICT
OF EDMONTON
BETWEEN:
FERREL
CHRISTENSEN
Plaintiff
- and -
THE NATIONAL POST COMPANY,
NP HOLDINGS COMPANY,
GLOBAL COMMUNICATIONS LIMITED
and DONNA LAFRAMBOISE
Defendants
------------------------------------------------------------
CONTINUED EXAMINATION
FOR DISCOVERY
OF
FERREL MARVIN
CHRISTENSEN
(Volume
II)
------------------------------------------------------------
G. A. Brown, Esq. For the Plaintiff
F. S. Kozak, Esq. For the Defendants
P. L. E. Eastwood, Esq.
D. L. Ragan, C.S.R. (A) Official Court Reporter/
Examiner
17th and 18th
February, 2005
00001
INDEX
INDEX OF
EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
D-7 PHOTOCOPY OF "SELECTED 367
CROSS-GENERATIONAL SEXUAL
BEHAVIOR IN
TRADITIONAL
ETHNOGRAPHY," WRITTEN
BY
DIAMOND, TAKEN FROM THE
TEXT TITLED
PEDOPHILIA, BIOSOCIAL
DIMENSIONS
D-8 COPY OF AN ARTICLE TITLED 378
"SOCIOPOLITICAL
BIASES IN THE
CONTEMPORARY SCIENTIFIC
LITERATURE ON
ADULT HUMAN SEXUAL
BEHAVIOR WITH
CHILDREN AND
ADOLESCENTS" TAKEN FROM
THE TEXT PEDOPHILIA,
BIOSOCIAL
DIMENSIONS
INDEX OF
UNDERTAKINGS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
12 ADVISE OF ANY OTHER REASONS 119
DR. CHRISTENSEN BELIEVES
PARAGRAPH
15(B) IN THE STATEMENT OF
DEFENSE IS
INCOMPLETE AND POTENTIALLY
MISLEADING.
13 PROVIDE COPIES OF EMAILS THAT WOULD 128
OUTLINE THE BOUNDARIES OF
MS. MALENFANT'S DUTIES AND
RESPONSIBILITIES AND HER
EXPECTED ROLE
THAT MIGHT RELATE BACK TO
THE SCOPE OF
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S
INVITATION TO HER.
14 PROVIDE TO PLAINTIFF'S COUNSEL THE 142
NAMES OF CLIENTS THAT [TIM]
ADAMS
OBTAINED BECAUSE OF THEIR
INVOLVEMENT
WITH ECMAS. ADVISE WHETHER THERE IS AN
ISSUE OF CONFIDENTIALITY;
IF SO,
PROVIDE THE PLAINTIFF'S
POSITION WITH
RESPECT TO THAT ISSUE.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00002
15 PROVIDE THE NAME OF THE FEMALE LAWYER 147
THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN
RECOMMENDED TO
VISITORS TO ECMAS.
(ANSWERED ON PAGE 148)
16 (UNDER ADVISEMENT) PRODUCE ALL OF THE175
NOTES THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN
HAS FOR
SUPPORT GROUP MEETINGS.
17 PRODUCE ANY EMAILS OR OTHER DOCUMENTS 213
THAT DR.
CHRISTENSEN HAS THAT DOCUMENT
THE FALLING OUT OR THE
DETERIORATION IN
HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH
LOUISE MALENFANT.
18 PROVIDE COPY OF THE JANUARY 26TH, 2001230
LETTER FROM THE CHIEF JUSTICE.
19 IF DR. CHRISTENSEN IS UNABLE TO LOCATE232
HIS COPY OF THE JANUARY
26TH, 2001,
LETTER FROM THE CHIEF
JUSTICE, MAKE A
REQUEST FOR A COPY OF THE
LETTER FROM
THE CHIEF JUSTICE THROUGH
COUNSEL.
20 PROVIDE A TYPEWRITTEN COPY OF 238
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S
HANDWRITTEN MINUTES
OR NOTES TAKEN FROM
SUPPORT GROUP
MEETINGS.
(DOCUMENT 96 IN THE
PLAINTIFF'S
PRODUCTION)
21 FURTHER TO UNDERTAKING NUMBER 4, WHICH243
WAS TAKEN UNDER
ADVISEMENT, ADVISE IF
THERE ARE OTHER EMAILS NOT PRODUCED
REGARDING DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S
CORRESPONDENCE BOTH TO AND
FROM
DR. DIAMOND WITH RESPECT
TO ISSUES
RAISED IN THIS LAWSUIT.
22 IDENTIFY IN THE ARTICLE TITLED "MORAL
256
FERVOR WITHOUT ACCURATE
KNOWLEDGE DOES
EVIL" THOSE PASSAGES
WHICH
DR. CHRISTENSEN SUGGESTS
IDENTIFY THAT
HE HAS CONDEMNED ADULT/CHILD
SEXUAL
RELATIONSHIPS IN THIS
ARTICLE.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00003
23 IDENTIFY THE META-ANALYSIS OF STUDIES 257
OF CHILD SEX ABUSE
REFERRED TO IN THE
ARTICLE TITLED "MORAL
FERVOR WITHOUT
ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE DOES
EVIL."
24 PROVIDE THE REMAINDER OF ANY 268
CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN DR. CHRISTENSEN
AND STEPHANE C. GIROUX
THAT HE MIGHT
HAVE STILL IN HIS
POSSESSION, POWER, OR
CONTROL, RELEVANT TO THE
ISSUES IN THIS
LAWSUIT.
25 PRODUCE ANY FURTHER DOCUMENTS THAT 271
DR. CHRISTENSEN MIGHT HAVE
WITH RESPECT
TO CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN
HIMSELF AND
CATHY YOUNG THAT ARE
RELEVANT TO THE
LAWSUIT.
26 IDENTIFY THE DATE THAT DR. CHRISTENSEN273
SENT MIKE LABERGE A COPY
OF THE ESSAY
REFERRED TO IN DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S EMAIL
TO MARINA FORBISTER OF
APRIL 28TH,
2001.
27 ADVISE IF THERE ARE ANY PORTIONS OF 278
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
WHERE HE
CONDEMNS INTERGENERATIONAL
SEX.
28 ADVISE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE 280
ANY PASSAGES IN
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
THAT ALLUDE TO
INTERGENERATIONAL SEX,
OTHER THAN THE REFERENCE
AT THE BOTTOM
OF PAGE 112.
29 FURTHER TO DR. CHRISTENSEN'S ASSERTION287
THAT THE TOPIC OF
ADULT/CHILD SEXUAL
RELATIONSHIPS ARE NOT
IDENTIFIED IN HIS
BOOK, ADVISE OF ANY CHANGE
IN THAT
ASSERTION AND IDENTIFY
EITHER PASSAGES
IN THE TEXT OF
HIS BOOK OR OTHER WORKS
REFERRED TO IN THE TEXT OR
FOOTNOTES OR
BIBLIOGRAPHY WHERE
INTERGENERATIONAL
SEX WAS A TOPIC OF THOSE
PASSAGES OR
STUDIES.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00004
30 ADVISE OF OTHER PASSAGES IN 290
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT
WHICH HELP TO
DEFINE THE TERM
"EARLY SEXUAL
EXPERIENCE" AS USED
IN THE SENTENCE
QUOTED WITHIN THE SECOND
PARAGRAPH ON
PAGE 110 OF THE TEXT.
31 ADVISE IF THERE'S ANY PASSAGES IN 291
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
THAT MIGHT
DEFINE THE TERM
"SEXUAL ACTIVITY" AS IT
IS USED IN THE PASSAGE
QUOTED ON PAGE
111 OF THE TEXT.
32 ADVISE WHETHER THERE ARE ANY OTHER 292
PASSAGES IN DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT
WHICH HELP DEFINE THE TERM
"SEX PLAY"
AS USED IN THE SENTENCE
QUOTED FROM THE
SECOND PARAGRAPH ON PAGE
111 OF THE
TEXT.
33 ADVISE AS TO ANY PASSAGES IN 294
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT
WHERE HE FURTHER
DEFINES OR DISCUSSES THE
WORDS OR
PHRASE "EROTICALLY
EXPLICIT MATERIALS"
AS USED IN THE SENTENCE
QUOTED IN THE
THIRD PARAGRAPH ON PAGE
111 OF THE
TEXT.
34 ADVISE OF OTHER PASSAGES IN 295
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
WHERE HE REFERS
TO "DEVIANT
SEX," WHICH WILL HELP TO
UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANT
WHEN HE
REFERRED TO "DEVIANT
SEX" IN THE
PASSAGE QUOTED FROM THE
THIRD PARAGRAPH
ON PAGE 111 OF THE TEXT.
35 IDENTIFY PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S302
BOOK THAT SHOW THAT
MORALITY IS
RELEVANT TO ISSUES
INVOLVING CHILDREN'S
SEXUALITY.
36 IDENTIFY PASSAGES IN DR. CHRISTENSEN'S311
BOOK THAT DEAL WITH THE
TOPIC OR ALLUDE
TO THE TOPIC OF TEACHING
SEXUAL
RESTRAINT.
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00005
37 IDENTIFY THE STUDIES THAT 331
DR. CHRISTENSEN RELIED ON
IN SUPPORT OF
THE SENTENCE QUOTED FROM
THE SECOND
PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 89 OF
THE TEXT,
STUDIES THAT ARE NOT
IDENTIFIED IN THE
BOOK.
38 ADVISE WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE 338
PASSAGES IN DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S BOOK
WHICH RELY ON OR USE
INFORMATION
CONTAINED IN THE ARTICLE
"CROSS-GENERATIONAL
SEX IN TRADITIONAL
HAWAI'I."
39 ADVISE WHAT PASSAGES OR PORTIONS OF 343
DR. CHRISTENSEN'S TEXT MAY
HAVE RELIED
ON THE CONTENT OF THE
ARTICLE TITLED
"SOCIOPOLITICAL
BIASES IN THE
CONTEMPORARY SCIENTIFIC
LITERATURE ON
ADULT HUMAN SEXUAL BEHAVIOR WITH
CHILDREN AND
ADOLESCENTS" IN JAY R.
FEIERMAN'S PEDOPHILIA,
BIOSOCIAL
DIMENSIONS.
40 ADVISE AS TO THE CORRECT IDENTIFICATIO347
OF THE ARTICLE
WRITTEN BY DONNA
LAFRAMBOISE ABOUT SENATOR
ANNE COOLS
THAT MIGHT HELP THE
DEFENDANTS TO
PRODUCE OR OBTAIN THE
ARTICLE.
41 ADVISE WHETHER THE MARCH 24, 2001, 348
EMAIL WAS SENT TO PERSONS
IN ADDITION
TO DONNA LAFRAMBOISE AND
THOSE PEOPLE
IDENTIFIED IN THE CC
LINES.
42 IDENTIFY ALL OTHER PARTIES THAT 350
DR. CHRISTENSEN
SENT THE EMAIL DATED
APRIL 3RD, 2001.
(TAB 37 OF THE PLAINTIFF'S
PRODUCTION)
43 ADVISE AS TO A RECORD OR RECORDS WHICH358
WOULD SHOW THE PARTICULAR
VOTE MADE BY
THE US CONGRESS WHICH
CONDEMNED THE
META-ANALYSIS REFERRED TO
IN THE FOURTH
PARAGRAPH OF PAGE E-3,
WHICH IS
ATTACHED TO THE
PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO
STATEMENT OF DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO
COUNTERCLAIM.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00006
44 PROVIDE A COPY OF THE SURVEY OF 359
LITERATURE BY THREE
PROFESSORS IN THE
FACULTY OF MEDICINE, AT
THE UNIVERSITY
OF AUCKLAND, REFERRED TO
IN THE
PARENTHESES IN THE FOURTH
PARAGRAPH OF
PAGE E-3, WHICH
IS ATTACHED TO THE
PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO
STATEMENT OF
DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO
COUNTERCLAIM.
45 IDENTIFY WHAT ADDITIONAL ARTICLES 360
DR. CHRISTENSEN WAS
RELYING ON OR
REFERRING TO WHEN HE
MENTIONED
"SUBSEQUENT
STUDIES" IN THE FOURTH
PARAGRAPH OF PAGE E-3,
WHICH IS
ATTACHED TO THE
PLAINTIFF'S REPLY TO
STATEMENT OF DEFENSE AND DEFENSE TO
COUNTERCLAIM.
46 ADVISE AS TO DR. CHRISTENSEN'S 371
UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD
"NONADULT" AS
USED BY MILTON DIAMOND IN
THE ARTICLE
TITLED "SELECTED
CROSS-GENERATIONAL
SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN
TRADITIONAL HAWAI'I:
A SEXOLOGICAL
ETHNOGRAPHY."
47 AFTER REVIEWING PORNOGRAPHY, THE OTHER378
SIDE, ADVISE WHAT PORTIONS OR PASSAGES
IN THE BOOK MAY HAVE BEEN
BASED ON THE
CONTENT OF EXHIBIT D-8.
48 IF THE ARTICLE "SEXUAL
CALLOUSNESS 383
RE-EXAMINED" WAS NOT
THE ARTICLE
REFERRED TO IN THE
FOOTNOTES FOLLOWING
THE ARTICLE TITLED
"CULTURAL AND
IDEOLOGICAL BIAS IN
PORNOGRAPHY
RESEARCH," PROVIDE
THE ARTICLE THAT IS
BEING REFERRED TO IN THAT FOOTNOTE.
49 PROVIDE A COPY OF THE ARTICLE TITLED 384
"EFFECTS OF
PORNOGRAPHY, THE DEBATE
CONTINUES."
50 ADVISE AS TO SPECIFIC OPPORTUNITIES TO392
PARTAKE IN
ACTIVITIES THAT
DR. CHRISTENSEN OTHERWISE
WOULD HAVE
PARTAKEN IN THAT HAVE BEEN
LOST TO HIM
BECAUSE OF THE PUBLICATION
OF THE
STATEMENTS HE HAS
COMPLAINED OF IN THE
ARTICLE.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00007
51 PROVIDE ANY INSTANCES, ASIDE FROM THE
LETTER FROM THE CHIEF JUSTICE, WHICH
DR. CHRISTENSEN CLAIMS
SHOWS THAT
OPPORTUNITIES HAVE BEEN
DENIED TO HIM
BY OTHERS BECAUSE OF THE
STATEMENTS
THAT HE HAS COMPLAINED
ABOUT IN HIS
STATEMENT OF CLAIM.
Undertakings listed in this
transcript are provided
for your assistance only. Counsel's records may
differ. Please check transcript to ensure that all
undertakings have been listed
according to your
records.
MR. KOZAK EXAMINES THE
WITNESS 111
MR. EASTWOOD EXAMINES THE
WITNESS 245
A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
[For a list of
the errors below that were later corrected, see Discoveries-FCCorrigenda.htm.]
00111
1
FERREL MARVIN CHRISTENSEN, AFFIRMED AT 10:00 A.M.,
2 EXAMINED BY MR. KOZAK:
3
Q Dr. Christensen, I want to ask
you a series of
4 questions that relate to the Statement
of Defense
5 that was filed on behalf of the
Defendants in this
6 action, and your counsel will provide
you with a
7 copy of that document, and I want you
to refer to
8 paragraph 15.
9
A Okay. Is there a comment to that?
10
Q Yes. Paragraph 15 has a number of subparagraphs,
11 (a) through (t). Do you see them there?
12
A Oh, yes.
13
Q All right. Now, in your reply to this pleading,
14 you acknowledged that 15(a) through (s)
were true,
15 but your reply went on to say that each
of those
16 paragraphs, when taken in context, is
either
17 irrelevant to the words complained of,
or
18 incomplete and misleading, or both, and
I want to
19 spend some time going through these
paragraphs and
20 have you identify which category each
of these fall
21 into, and why.
22
A Sounds good.
23
Q So starting with (a), which
reads:
24 "The Equitable Child
Maintenance and
25 Access Society, hereinafter ECMAS,
26 is a nonprofit corporation
27 incorporated April 14th, 1994, and
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00112
1 has an Edmonton chapter."
2 That is something that you've confirmed
to be true
3 in your pleading. Can you tell me if that
4 statement is irrelevant to the words
that you've
5 complained of?
6
A If I understand the legalese
here --
7
Q Yes.
8
A -- it certainly doesn't seem
relevant to me.
9 Obviously, it's a part of the whole
case, but in
10 the particular matter here, it's not
anything
11 actionable, and so irrelevant in that
sense, I
12
would say.
13
Q All right. Is that statement, in your view,
14 incomplete and misleading?
15
A Not to my knowledge, no.
16
Q Thank you. The second paragraph reads:
17 "Some persons involved with
ECMAS
18 have been falsely accused of
19 sexually abusing children."
20 You've confirmed that as being true in
your reply.
21 Do you confirm that today?
22 A
Yes.
23
Q And is that statement
irrelevant to the words that
24 you've complained of from the article?
25
A Well, let me see. In the context of the case, it's
26 potentially misleading. Again, the legalese I may
27 be unclear on, but it's potentially
misleading as
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00113
1 regards some of the issues that may
arise in the
2 case, or seem to have arisen in the
case, the point
3 being that, as a matter of agreement
between the
4 two organizations, ECMAS and MERGE,
those who
5 were -- presented themselves as falsely
accused of
6 sexually abusing children were sent
over to and
7 dealt with by ECMAS -- or, sorry, by
MERGE rather
8 than by ECMAS, as a matter of division
of labor
9 between the two groups. ECMAS dealt specifically
10 with access, maintenance and custody
issues. MERGE
11 dealt with such related items as family
violence,
12 family abuse, and false accusations of
that, and it
13 was to this -- perhaps you can see why
this is
14 somewhat relevant to the case, and so
some of the
15 things that are said in the case would
bear on
16
this, and it would -- it would
be important to
17 understand, even though these people
came to ECMAS
18 with this problem, they were not dealt
with by
19 ECMAS for this problem. I hope that's clear.
20 Q
Well, that certainly helps me understand the
21 different mandates of the two groups.
22 Now, you referred to an agreement
between
23 ECMAS and MERGE in giving me your
answer.
24
A Very informal about -- agreement made about
1995 or
25 '96 or so between me and the person who
was
26 president at that time.
27
Q And who was that?
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00114
1
A Caroline Van Ee.
2
Q And was that agreement ever
reduced to writing?
3
A I believe not.
4
Q And whose idea was that?
5
A It was probably mine in the
first instance because
6 before ECMAS came along, there was
really nobody
7 in -- no organization in town to try to
help people
8 or deal with people having any kind of
divorce
9 problem.
10 Once ECMAS arose, it no longer
made very good
11 sense for an organization that was
focused
12 specifically on gender equality to deal
with this
13 much more specialized set of problems
having to do
14 with divorce and separation. In theory, the two
15 organizations could have gone on each
dealing with
16 those problems, but when you have
little volunteer
17 groups, it is counterproductive to
compete with
18 each other for resources. Better to divide,
19 separate the work between you, and that
was the
20 most obvious way to do it.
21
Q And so when this agreement was
reached in or about
22 1995 or 1996, had both ECMAS and MERGE
been dealing
23 with the same issues for some time?
24
A The same issues being?
25
Q Being the entire --
26
A Divorce?
27
Q Yes.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00115
1
A Divorce-type issues? MERGE hadn't been doing much
2 with it. It's a bit complicated by the fact that
3 there was a precursor organization to
ECMAS, and it
4 was not incorporated with the province,
and I have
5
less knowledge of what they
were doing. We had
6 some contact, but they were just
growing and
7 getting started, and I'm not -- I don't
have an
8 awfully good memory of all that they
were doing,
9 but, in any case, sometime before that
agreement,
10 they were -- they were doing their work
with
11 divorce-type problems. That's about as much as I
12 can say.
13
Q The precursor organization,
was that CAPE?
14
A No. No.
They had a name that had "Men" in it, and
15 they eventually decided they wanted to
be gender
16 inclusive, so they changed their name,
and I can't
17
even remember that name. They were really small at
18 that stage. They had no real publicity. Well, not
19 much publicity.
20 It's hard for me to give a very
clear answer
21 to what you're saying because of the
time lapse and
22 so on.
23
Q So just to complete the
context for me before
24 getting back to the pleading. After the agreement
25 in 1995 or 1996, if someone came to
ECMAS with an
26 issue that dealt specifically with
access,
27 maintenance, custody, or some other
divorce-related
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00116
1 issue, would they be sent to MERGE?
2
A No, no, not really. That was their territory.
3
Q That was ECMAS's territory?
4
A That's right.
5
Q And who would be sent to
MERGE, only those that had
6 been falsely accused of sexually
abusing children?
7
A Or had some other kind of
family abuse problem or
8 issue.
9
Q And was there anything
reflected in the minutes of
10 meetings or the bylaws that would
evidence this
11 agreement?
12
A I don't believe so. These organizations, as I
13 mentioned before, are quite
informal. They don't
14 have a lot of talent, a lot of ability
to do things
15 formally, and so on, and so I'm quite
sure that
16 nothing like that was written on that.
17
Q I'm interested in the process,
and again I'll
18 specifically ask you to think of the
time period
19 following the agreement. If a parent came to ECMAS
20 and had issues involving family
violence, who would
21 determine that and direct them to go to
MERGE
22 instead of stay at ECMAS?
23
A It would generally be either
Caroline Van Ee or
24 Brian St. Germain, or as more often
than not,
25 because by that stage I was going to
nearly all the
26 ECMAS meetings, I would pick up on them
and just
27 talk to them myself.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00117
1
Q Did the agreement specifically
contemplate that
2 people with family violence issues
would not be
3 welcome at ECMAS?
4
A Certainly not, because most of
the people coming in
5 that situation had both kinds of
issues.
6
Q And so --
7
A Divorce, custody, and so on.
8
Q -- these weren't discrete
problems?
9
A That's why we had to make an
agreement is that they
10 were -- they were very often
together. I've used
11 the phrase -- well, these days I'm
calling it
12 Divorce 21st Century Style. You want to grab the
13 kids and the house and get all sorts of
advantages
14 for the divorce and separation, and you
make
15 accusations of -- child sex abuse was
the big one
16 back around the turn of the 1990s, and
-- but by
17 the middle of the 1990s, spouse abuse
was the big
18 issue and continues to be so today.
19 A further thought I've just had, I
recall
20 specifically that Brian St. Germain had
a special
21 interest in family violence issues, and
he would
22 sometimes come to MERGE meetings where
we were
23 dealing with that problem.
24
Q I see. And so was it the case that people that
25 came to ECMAS for help that had a
family violence
26 allegation component would be referred
to MERGE and
27 might attend meetings in both
organizations?
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00118
1
A Attending meetings at both was
quite common.
2
Q Right.
3
A Is quite common.
4
Q Now, getting back to 15(b),
would you put this
5 statement in the irrelevant category,
or would you
6 say that it is incomplete and
misleading, or both?
7
A It certainly seems
relevant. Incomplete and
8 potentially misleading is how I would
prefer to put
9 it.
10
Q All right. And what makes this incomplete? Is it
11 the information that you've just given
to me about
12 the relationship between ECMAS and
MERGE?
13
A That's what I had in mind,
yes.
14
Q Yes. Anything else that makes this incomplete?
15
A Not that I can see at the
moment.
16
Q All right. When you respond in that fashion, not
17 that you can see at the moment, I'm
compelled to
18 say I would like an undertaking that
would oblige
19 you to advise me through your lawyer if
something
20 occurs to you at a later date between
now and
21 trial.
Will you give me that undertaking?
22
A Surely. I understand your constraints, and I hope
23 you understand, as a philosopher
trained in
24 caution, I sometimes may be overly
cautious.
25
Q Well, no, I'm sure your
counsel has encouraged you
26 to be cautious, and that's appropriate
in this
27 setting.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00119
1 UNDERTAKING NO.
12:
2 ADVISE OF ANY OTHER REASONS DR.
CHRISTENSEN
3 BELIEVES PARAGRAPH 15(B) IN THE
STATEMENT OF
4 DEFENSE IS INCOMPLETE AND POTENTIALLY
MISLEADING.
5
Q MR. KOZAK: Now, I'd like you to turn to
6 15(c):
7 "Christensen has been
involved with
8 the Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS."
9 I'm sure that you will confirm that
that is true.
10
A Yes.
11
Q Is it relevant to the words
complained of?
12
A It surely is relevant.
13
Q Is it incomplete and
misleading in some fashion?
14
A Not misleading. It's not -- it doesn't say very
15 much, but not incomplete in any
material sense, I
16 wouldn't say.
17
Q All right. The next statement:
18 "Christensen has attended
support
19 group meetings of
the Edmonton
20 chapter of ECMAS."
21 That is true, I assume.
22
A It is true.
23
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
24
A It is not.
25
Q Is it incomplete or
misleading?
26
A No. Again, it says very little, but it's not
27 incomplete in any material way.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00120
1
Q 15(e) reads:
2 "On March 25th, 2001, the
Edmonton
3 chapter of ECMAS considered a
motion
4 to suspend Christensen from the
5 group for three months to
6 investigate whether Christensen's
7 views conflicted with the guiding
8 principles and policies of
ECMAS."
9 Is that true?
10
A It is true.
11
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
12
A No, it is definitely relevant.
13
Q And is it incomplete and
misleading?
14
A Well, it's not misleading. It's, again, incomplete
15 in the sense of not telling all of the
-- all of
16 the facts that are important but not in
a way that
17 I would say would make it misleading.
18
Q All right. 15(f) reads:
19 "Christensen has written and
20 published a book titled
Pornography,
21 The Other Side."
22 That is true, is it not?
23
A It is true.
24
Q And is it irrelevant to the
words complained of?
25
A Certainly not. It is relevant.
26
Q Is it incomplete and
misleading, that statement?
27
A It is not.
A.C.E.
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1
Q 15(g):
2 "In his book, Pornography,
The Other
3 Side, Christensen included a
section
4 titled 'Sex and Young
People.' A
5 copy of this section is attached
as
6 Schedule A to this Statement of
7 Defense, and the Defendants will
8 rely on this section in its
9 entirety."
10 Is that statement true?
11
A Yes.
12
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
13
A It is not.
14
Q Is it incomplete and
misleading?
15 A
It is not.
16
Q 15(h):
17 "Louise Malenfant is a
community
18 activist who has been involved
with
19 the Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS."
20 Is that true?
21 A It is true.
22
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
23
A It is not.
24
Q Is it incomplete and
misleading?
25
A Not misleading, and incomplete
only in the sense of
26 saying so very little that is
important; but, no,
27 not misleading.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00122
1
Q All right. 15(i):
2 "Louise Malenfant accepted an
3 invitation from Christensen to
move
4 from Winnipeg to Edmonton to work
5 with divorced parents."
6 Is that true?
7
A It's ambiguous in a way that's
potentially
8 misleading.
9
Q Can you explain how?
10
A Yes. Specifically, what I invited her to come to
11 Edmonton to do was to research and
write up the
12 stories of individuals who had problems
dealing
13 with family abuse, and the phrase
"work with" is
14 somewhat problematic because it might
suggest
15 things that I did not bring her here to
do and
16 which might be relevant to issues that
would arise.
17 Specifically, she was to research their
stories,
18 get their documents, talk to them, and
then write
19
that information up for use
in potentially helping
20 them farther down the road with abuse
-- it's
21 usually accusations of some kind or
other, but it
22 wasn't specifically to do with divorced
parents,
23 although that's usually the case, but
certainly it
24 wasn't to do with divorce per se. It had to do
25 with the accusations.
26
Q So issues that you would say
following the
27
agreement in 1995 or 1996
would have more to do
A.C.E.
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1 with people who were going to MERGE as
opposed to
2 ECMAS?
3
A Exactly right, but, again,
keeping in mind that
4 most of them were going to both.
5
Q Yes. And in fairness, Dr. Christensen, you would
6 agree that the phrase "work with
divorced parents"
7 is general enough to include the fact
that she
8 would be interacting with them and
capturing their
9 story and committing it to writing?
10
A It is. It is general enough, yes.
11
Q And your answer to my
question, that is, it's
12 somewhat misleading I gather in your
mind because
13 your invitation to her was for a more
specific
14 purpose than what's suggested in 15(i)?
15
A Not just more specific, but
more specifically the
16 work that MERGE was doing as opposed to
the work
17 that ECMAS was doing, even again
granting that they
18 overlap, and, as we've said.
19
Q Now, is there some document,
whether it's an
20 agreement, or a contract, or an
exchange of emails,
21 that would illustrate the more limited
nature of
22 your invitation to Louise Malenfant?
23
A Unfortunately, there is no
such record. It was all
24 done by telephone, or virtually all
done by
25 telephone, and such emails as there
were, I did not
26 keep. Had I known what would eventually happen, I
27 certainly would have kept all those
records, but
A.C.E.
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1 the records that I have of my dealings
with
2 Ms. Malenfant that I've kept on email
don't begin
3 until about the time that she actually
got to
4 Edmonton.
5
Q All right. Now --
6
A If I can follow up?
7
Q Sure.
8
A Probably a lot of those
records would have
9 references that would help answer the
question, but
10 the actual original agreement, we -- I
guess
11 because we were -- at that time we saw
each other
12 as workers in a common cause, we
trusted each other
13 in ways that ceased later on, but we
certainly did
14 not bother with anything like a written
contract at
15 that -- at that earlier point.
16
Q I was just about to ask you
about that. So there
17 was no written contract. This topic may have been
18 covered in emails that are no longer
available to
19 you?
20
A That's correct.
21
Q Are you absolutely certain
that the invitation, as
22 it's described in 15(i), was
specifically confined,
23 to you, to working with people who
would go to
24 MERGE on family violence issues?
25
A About as certain as I can
be. It's not as if I
26 thought about it in terms of sharp
dividing lines
27 at that point.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00125
1
Q Yes.
2
A And don't usually think in
terms of sharp dividing
3
lines, but certainly the idea
was to deal with
4 people who specifically had problems
with police
5 and with Child Welfare because of the
kinds of
6 accusations, sometimes true even, of
dealing with
7 these issues. It's not as if I would have said:
8 Oh, of course, if any kind of other
issues arise,
9 we won't touch that at all. That didn't come up.
10 But certainly that was my reason for
doing it.
11
Q You would agree that parents
who have issues with
12 police authorities and Child Welfare
authorities
13 have a broad range of problems that
aren't
14 necessarily confined to family
violence?
15
A That I've said already. Many of them are in
16 divorce situations, separation. The two are very
17 much linked.
18
Q Would you agree that it
wouldn't have been
19 unreasonable for Louise Malenfant to
think that
20 your invitation was a more general one
than the one
21 that you intended to create?
22
A It would have been unlikely
for her to think that,
23 because her own work in Winnipeg was
always
24 specifically with the falsely
accused. She dealt
25 very specifically with people falsely
accused or
26 claiming to be falsely accused of child
sex abuse,
27 so it would have been odd for her to
think in more
A.C.E.
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1 general terms, I would think.
2
Q Right. 15(j) reads:
3 "Christensen paid Louise
Malenfant a
4 salary."
5 Is that true?
6
A Yes. Well, it's true enough, I guess. It was -- I
7
paid her a -- it was not an
hourly salary or
8 anything like that. It was a set amount per month,
9 so it was more on a contract
basis. For example,
10 if people think of salary normally,
they would
11 think of having benefits and this sort
of thing.
12 Louise simply wanted it on a contract
basis, so
13 there would be no EI, no benefits. I would just
14 give her $2,000 per month.
15
Q You weren't her employer, but
you paid her on a
16 monthly basis?
17
A That's correct.
18
Q Was it, in fact, $2,000 per
month?
19
A That's what it was.
20
Q Was that agreement to pay her
$2,000 a month ever
21 reduced to writing?
22
A Well, I certainly have records
of the payments.
23
Q Yes.
24
A But as I say, initially we
were quite informal, and
25 there was no actual contract to that
effect.
26
Q What I'm getting at is, I was
wondering whether
27 something in writing exists to outline
the
A.C.E.
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1 boundaries of her duties and
responsibilities and
2 her expected role that might relate
back to the
3 scope of your invitation to her?
4
A It's possible that emails from
the period would
5 allude to these things in ways that
would help, but
6 nothing really besides, I'm sure, would
exist on
7 the matter.
8
Q Those emails that you're
referring to, are those
9 emails that are no longer available to
you or ones
10 that you have provided through your
legal counsel?
11
A I have not provided them. They are available to
12
me.
13
Q Yes.
14
A When I began having conflicts
with Louise, I began
15 saving all the emails, and -- but I
have not
16 provided them in this case feeling that
they're not
17 relevant to the case, in my mind
relevance being to
18 what Donna knew and when she knew it,
and so, yes,
19 they're available; but, no, I have not
provided
20 them.
21
Q Right. I'm going to ask you, subject to anything
22 that your legal counsel says once he's
able to
23 review those emails, I'm going to ask
you to
24 undertake to provide those emails
through your
25 lawyer.
26 MR. BROWN: Sure.
27
MR. KOZAK: All
right. Thank you.
A.C.E.
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Phone: (780) 497-4223
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1
A Could that be made subject to
relevance?
2
MR. BROWN: I'll
review them. I'll review
3 them for relevance, and, you know, I
mean, if
4 there's nothing in there relating to
what you've
5 been just asking about, then, you know,
there's no
6 point.
7
A I want to be cooperative. The mountains of
8 documents in this case, I am worried
about drowning
9 in irrelevant material.
10
Q MR. KOZAK: I understand your concern,
11 because I am sure you feel that this
case has
12 dragged on far too long as it is, and
the concern
13 obviously relates to getting into an
examination of
14 things that you think are not directly
related to
15 the things complained of. However, in my view,
16 because of the nature of the
allegations that have
17 been made, there's actually a fairly
wide ambit of
18 relevance, and that's something that
your lawyer
19 will review, but in order to do that,
I'm going to
20 ask you to undertake to provide any
email or other
21 correspondence between you and Louise
Malenfant so
22 that he can review it and advise us of
his position
23 on the relevance to the issues in the
lawsuit.
24
A I will do that.
25
Q Thank you.
26 UNDERTAKING NO.
13:
27 PROVIDE COPIES OF EMAILS THAT WOULD
OUTLINE THE
A.C.E.
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1 BOUNDARIES OF MS. MALENFANT'S DUTIES
AND
2 RESPONSIBILITIES AND HER EXPECTED ROLE
THAT MIGHT
3 RELATE BACK TO THE SCOPE OF DR.
CHRISTENSEN'S
4 INVITATION TO HER.
5 Q
MR. KOZAK: And, can you
tell me the
6 period of time for which you paid
Louise Malenfant
7 this $2,000 per month?
8
A It was the three months of
September, October and
9
November of the year 2000. There was some talk of
10 a fourth month, but that didn't
materialize because
11 of the conflicts between us.
12
Q So your initial agreement
didn't have a term?
13
A It had a three-month, possibly
four-month term.
14
Q I see.
15
A And it may be helpful to add
that because
16 originally this looked like a very
promising
17 arrangement, my agreement was to, if things
worked
18 out well, to attempt to get funding so
I could
19 continue to pay her on beyond that
period,
20 indefinitely. This was all in the realm of
21 possibility as originally discussed
with
22 Ms. Malenfant.
23
Q Now, the $2,000 that you did
pay over the course of
24 each of three months, was that money
that you
25 personally paid her?
26
A That's correct.
27 Q
Were you reimbursed by anyone for that money that
A.C.E.
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1 you paid to her?
2
A No.
3
Q And the funding that you hoped
to arrange, who
4 would that funding have come from?
5
A Some government agency
perhaps, or some foundation
6 perhaps. It was all speculative, but there are --
7 there are sources of that kind that I
wanted to
8 look into, but that did not
materialize.
9
Q When you say "that did
not materialize," did you
10 take any steps to look into the possibility
and it
11 didn't come to fruition, or is it the
case that you
12 didn't take any steps?
13
A I took the steps of looking at
some of the
14 available sources of such funding, but
at that
15 point the conflict between me and Ms.
Malenfant was
16 such that I gave up on it.
17
Q 15(k) reads:
18 "[Tim] Adams was disbarred by
the
19 Law Society Alberta and pled
guilty
20 to the indictable criminal offense
21 of sexual exploitation of a
minor."
22 Is that true?
23
A As I understand it, that's
true.
24
Q And is any part of that
irrelevant to the words
25 complained of?
26
A No.
27
Q And is any part of that
incomplete and misleading?
A.C.E.
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1
A No.
2
Q 15(l) reads:
3 "[Tim] Adams has been involved
with
4 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS and
5 attended support group meetings of
6 the Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS."
7 Is that true?
8
A It's true.
9
Q Is any part of that irrelevant
to the words
10 complained of?
11
A It is not.
12
Q And is any part of that
statement incomplete and
13 misleading?
14
A It is not.
15
Q 15(m) reads:
16 "On March 12th, 2001, the
Edmonton
17 chapter of ECMAS elected [Tim]
Adams
18 as vice president."
19 Is that true?
20
A That is true.
21
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
22
A It is not.
23
Q Is any part of that incomplete
and misleading?
24
A It is not. Of course, there's a great story to be
25 told there that is relevant, but this
statement is
26 not problematic.
27
Q Thank you. 15(n) reads:
A.C.E.
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1 "On March 25th, 2001, the
Edmonton
2 chapter of ECMAS voted to accept
the
3 resignation of [Tim] Adams from the
4 position of vice president."
5 Is that true?
6
A It is true.
7
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
8
A It is not.
9
Q Is any part of it incomplete
and misleading?
10
A It is not.
11
Q 15(o) reads:
12 "On March 25th, 2001, the
Edmonton
13 chapter of ECMAS voted down a
motion
14 to eject [Tim] Adams from the
group."
15 Is that true?
16
A It is true.
17
Q Is it irrelevant to the words
complained of?
18
A It is not.
19
Q Is any part of it incomplete
and misleading?
20
A It is not.
21
Q 15(p), the following words
appear:
22 "In late March 2001, the
Board of
23 Directors of the Calgary chapter
of
24 ECMAS resigned and disassociated
25 itself from the ECMAS trade
name."
26 Is that true?
27
A It is true, as I understand
it.
A.C.E.
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Phone: (780) 497-4223
00133
1
Q Is that statement irrelevant
to the words
2 complained of?
3
A It is not.
4
Q And is any part of that
incomplete and misleading?
5
A It is not. Again, there's much more story here to
6 this, but, in itself, it's not a
problematic
7 statement.
8
Q 15(q) reads:
9 "The Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS
10 support group meetings begin with
a
11 disclaimer that the group is not
12 offering legal advice."
13 Is that true?
14
A It is problematic, and I could
explain what I mean
15 by that.
16
Q All right. Please do.
17
A The phrase "legal
advice" is something of a term of
18 art.
In the words that I would use, what the group
19 is told is that they're not being given
any
20 professional advice.
21
Q Okay.
22
A But, now, if the phrase -- if
you use the phrase
23 "legal advice" as I believe
it sometimes is used,
24 it's something that only lawyer can
give, and the
25 very point of this disclaimer given to
the
26 attendees is that we're not pretending
to give that
27 kind of information or of anything
professional.
A.C.E. Reporting
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1 It is -- it is very important here
though
2 that the -- what the group did
primarily was to
3 give "legal advice" in the
sense of lay people gave
4 information in the same sense, if I
may, that
5 neighbors sometimes give each other
medical advice:
6 Oh, I took -- you know, why don't you
take this
7 medicine, it helped me. But, if you understand,
8 the neighbors are not pretending to be
medical
9 doctors, they're just doing it as lay
people, so in
10 a sense, an important sense, it is
medical advice,
11 but in the sense of being official or
pretending to
12 be professional, it is not, and I think
this
13 important -- this distinction is
certainly material
14 to the issues at stake here. I hope that helps.
15
Q Yes, I understand. A well-intentioned stranger
16 that tells you not to cross the street
in the
17 middle of the block may or may not be
giving you
18 legal advice regardless of whether
they're a
19 lawyer.
Is that your point?
20
A Pretty well; but, again, I do
understand that the
21 phrase "legal advice" has a
quite special
22
resonance, if not a very
special definition.
23
Q But, Dr. Christensen, you
would agree that meetings
24 of the Edmonton chapter of the ECMAS
support group
25 commenced with some statement to make
it clear that
26 people weren't being offered legal
advice in the
27 sense that the term of art refers to,
that it
A.C.E.
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1 wasn't professional legal advice, but
it was advice
2 relating to legal matters from a
nonprofessional
3 source?
4
A Lay advice, exactly. The term "professional" is
5 used repeatedly in that
disclaimer, and I think
6 that's the key word here. Lay legal advice is a
7 good way I could put it, although we've
tried to
8 stress the fact that this is just from
our lay
9 experience.
10
Q No, I think I understand the
point; but subject to
11 that qualification, do you agree that
15(q) is
12 true?
13
A Subject to that qualification,
yes, 15(q) is true.
14
Q Is that statement relevant to
the words complained
15 of?
16
A I believe it is very relevant.
17
Q Other than the qualification
that you have just
18 given us, is that statement incomplete
and
19 misleading?
20
A The qualification I've given,
I think, is the only
21 -- the only -- might make it
misleading.
22
Q All right. If you could turn the page, 15(r)
23 reads:
24 "[Tim] Adams has handed out
business
25 cards at support group meetings of
26 the Edmonton chapter of
ECMAS. The
27 business cards of [Tim] Adams
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1 included the designation
LL.B."
2 Is that true?
3
A It is not known to me to be
true because, in my
4 memory, I never got one of his cards,
and so I
5 wouldn't know whether the designation
LL.B. was on
6 there, but I certainly understand this
statement to
7 be true.
8 There is a little bit of a
problem, and I
9 don't mean to be picking nits here, but
it says he
10 handed out his business cards at
support group
11 meetings. To my -- I don't believe I ever saw him
12 hand out a business card at the
meeting, though he
13 probably did after the meetings were
over, and I
14 certainly saw other people hand out his
card at the
15 meetings, so this is a bit nitpicking,
but the way
16 this could be misleading is in giving
the
17 impression that he was doing this
constantly, that
18 it was an important part of the meeting
as opposed
19 to something that occasionally happened
after the
20 meeting.
21
Q Yes.
22
A If you can see the distinction
I'm making, then
23 you'll understand why I'm a bit
hesitant to endorse
24 this just as it stands.
25
Q Yes. So if I can summarize then. You have no
26 personal knowledge of the truth of the
statement
27 made in 15(r), although you have no
reason to
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1 believe that it's false; is that fair?
2
A Well, again, as it stands,
it's . . .
3
Q Perhaps I'll just complete my
summary. You have no
4 reason to believe that it's false, but
it may be
5 misleading if it conveys the impression
that
6 [Tim] Adams had, as his primarily
function, handing
7 out business cards at meetings?
8
A Well, that's closer. I was there at all the
9 meetings. I do not remember at any time seeing him
10 hand his card out during the
meeting. In fact, I
11 don't even remember him -- seeing his
-- giving his
12 card out after a meeting was over, but
then he was
13 talking to people individually, and it
certainly
14 would have happened, I would think.
15
Q All right.
16
A Does that help?
17
Q Did you ever have occasion to
see one of
18 [Tim] Adams' business cards?
19
A I don't remember seeing --
looking at it close.
20 Not until this whole affair exploded
did I pay much
21 attention to the idea of a business
card.
22
Q So you can't personally say
whether or not his
23 business cards at that time included a
designation
24 LL.B.?
25
A I cannot personally say that.
26
Q Okay. Now, with respect to this statement, you've
27 summarized one aspect of it that you
think might be
A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.
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1 misleading. Is there something else that you would
2 say is either incomplete, or
misleading, or both?
3
A I think I've covered it. I could possibly repeat,
4 just to be sure, but -- and, if I may,
I'll do
5 that.
I had personal knowledge of what was
6 happening in those meetings because I
was there at
7 every one, and I have no memory of ever
seeing him
8 pass out his business card, although on
a few
9 occasions others would pass out his
business card,
10 and so I think it is a -- though I'm
sure that he
11 would have given his card to people, I
believe it
12 would have been after the meetings and
not terribly
13 often.
I think that covers my concerns however we
14 may wind up summarizing it.
15
Q Well, I accept the fact that
you're trying to be as
16 complete as possible in your answer,
but I want to
17 clarify one thing. You attended each and every
18 meeting, but you couldn't say with
certainty that
19 [Tim] Adams did not hand out his
business card at
20 the meeting?
21
A I certainly cannot say
that. I would expect the
22 opposite to be true.
23 Q
And I take it from our discussion about 15(r) that
24 you would agree that 15(r) is relevant
to the words
25 complained of?
26
A Certainly relevant.
27
Q 15(s) reads:
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1 "[Tim] Adams has obtained
clients for
2 his paralegal business,
'affordable
3 paralegal services,' who are
persons
4 involved with ECMAS."
5 Is that true?
6
A It is true.
7
Q Is it relevant to the words
complained of?
8
A It is relevant.
9
Q Is some part of that
misleading and incomplete?
10
A It is not.
11
Q This is obviously something
that you do have
12 personal knowledge of, given the
unequivocal
13 response to my questions. Who were the clients
14 that you can recall that [Tim] Adams
obtained for
15 his paralegal business who were
involved with
16 ECMAS?
17
A Are you asking for their
names?
18
Q Yes.
19
A I, at this date, couldn't give
you very many.
20
MR. BROWN: Can we do
that by way of
21 undertaking, give our best efforts to
--
22
MR. KOZAK: Yes. Yes. That's
23 satisfactory.
24
A That would be better.
25
MR. BROWN: It would
more likely give you
26 an answer that you, you know, could use
than if he
27 tries to remember right now.
A.C.E.
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1
MR. KOZAK: That
would be satisfactory.
2
Q MR. KOZAK: So, Dr. Christensen, I'll ask
3 you to undertake to provide us with a
list of the
4 clients that [Tim] Adams obtained for
his paralegal
5 business who were persons involved with
ECMAS, and
6
supply us with that information
through your legal
7 counsel. Will you give me that undertaking?
8
A May I clarify that?
9
Q Yes.
10
A Are you expecting me to confer
with [Tim] Adams to
11 get this information or simply to go
from my own
12 memory?
13
Q I would like you to do
both. I would like you to
14 rely on whatever resources are
available to you,
15 that is, documents that you have either
produced or
16 are going to produce to your legal
counsel, and, if
17 necessary, calling [Tim] Adams to ask
him.
18
MR. BROWN: [Tim] may
have objections based
19
on confidentiality, but, you
know, if he's prepared
20 to provide them, we'll ask.
21
MR. KOZAK: Yes.
22
A If I may, there may be further
complications
23 because it's germane to the case
whether he got
24 these clients from ECMAS. This simply says
25 "involved with ECMAS." I do recall very clearly
26 that quite a few of the people who
originally just
27 came to him were referred by him to
ECMAS for the
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00141
1 first time, so he did not get those
clients by
2
his -- from his involvement
with ECMAS, but rather
3 it was the reverse.
4
Q MR. KOZAK: Yes.
5
A There's a germane distinction,
I think, and it may
6 impact on what you're asking here.
7
Q I would have to agree with
that distinction. I
8 think that what I'm interested in are
clients that
9 [Tim] Adams obtained because of their
involvement
10 with ECMAS, not the other way around.
11
A That helps, and that I
understand. I will
12 undertake to do that.
13
Q You'll produce those to your
lawyer, and your
14 lawyer can then decide whether or not
there is some
15 issue of confidentiality, and advise us
of the
16 position with respect to that.
17 Now, I'm not suggesting that the
issue of
18 confidentiality solely relates to the
issue of
19
solicitor/client privilege,
but I will advise you
20 that I think at the time in question,
Mr. Adams was
21 not a barrister and solicitor, and,
therefore,
22 solicitor/client privilege wouldn't
apply. I'll
23 leave it to you to determine whether or
not there's
24 some other confidentiality issue, and,
if so, you
25 can tell me what it is.
26
MR. BROWN: Sure.
27
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00142
1 UNDERTAKING NO.
14:
2 PROVIDE TO PLAINTIFF'S COUNSEL THE
NAMES OF
3 CLIENTS THAT [TIM] ADAMS OBTAINED
BECAUSE OF THEIR
4 INVOLVEMENT WITH ECMAS. ADVISE WHETHER THERE IS
5 AN ISSUE OF CONFIDENTIALITY; IF SO,
PROVIDE THE
6 PLAINTIFF'S POSITION WITH RESPECT TO THAT
ISSUE.
7
Q MR. KOZAK: 15(t) reads:
8 "Christensen has recommended
to some
9 members of ECMAS on a number of
10 occasions that they retain
11 [Tim] Adams to provide counsel with
12 regard to family law matters in
13 place of their existing legal
14 counsel."
15 Now, that is a statement that in your
Reply you
16
indicated was not
accurate. What is your position,
17 Dr. Christensen?
18
A All right. Let's see if I can make it succinct and
19 yet clear. I think that the important distinction
20 here is that I did not recommend that
they retain
21 him.
I recommended that they go to him and talk to
22 him about that as an option. I think that is an
23 important distinction.
24 Secondly, because of what I take
are obvious
25 issues here, in place of their existing
legal
26 counsel, I want it to be very clear
that I never
27 recommended to anybody to fire their
existing
A.C.E. Reporting Services
Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00143
1 counsel. This is a -- a very large issue has been
2 made of this, and I take strong
exception to it, so
3 there was no recommendation that they
leave their
4 existing counsel. Generally, the people I sent to
5 [Tim] did not have counsel. There certainly may
6 have been some who did. My memory -- I don't want
7 to claim perfect memory in that regard,
but,
8 generally speaking, if people had
existing counsel,
9 that settled the answer for me. I would not have
10 -- I believe I would not have sent
anyone to him
11 suggesting that they replace their
counsel, unless
12 they had indicated to me that they
already intended
13 to leave their current counsel. I think this is a
14 very important distinction.
15
Q Well, I just want to explore
that because you've
16 been very candid in saying: I believe that I did
17 not send anybody to [Tim] Adams. That, of course,
18 leaves open the possibility that it did
occur, and
19 you can't presently recollect it.
20
A That's right.
21
Q But it's not uncommon, I think
you would agree, for
22 people to complain about their lawyers
or the legal
23 system.
Is that accurate?
24
A It's especially common at our
support group
25 meetings, yes.
26
Q Right. And you drew a distinction between what is
27 said in 15(t), that is, that you
recommended to
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00144
1 some members of ECMAS on a number of
occasions that
2 they retain [Tim] Adams. The distinction you made
3 was you would have described it as
suggesting or
4 recommending that they talk to him
about options.
5 Is that fair?
6 A
Yes. Among the options being
retaining him, yes.
7
Q Yes, and would it be fair to
say that in instances
8 where people were complaining about
their lawyers
9 within the context of an ECMAS meeting,
you would
10 offer that as an option to them as
well, that is:
11 Why don't you talk to [Tim] Adams?
12
A I guess I'd have to say it
would have to be more
13 than just complaining.
14 Q
Yes.
15
A Expressing a definite desire
to leave their current
16 counsel I think would be -- because
people
17 obviously complain about all sorts of
little things
18 which are quite curable.
19
Q Yes.
20
A So the word
"complaining" might be misleading; but
21 if a person said: I really feel I have to replace
22 my counsel, then certainly an option
that I would
23
on some occasions have
presented was the option of
24 getting [Tim] Adams or some other
paralegal to help
25 them represent themselves. I think it may be
26 helpful in this context to say that we
talk a lot
27 about self-representation in the group.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00145
1
Q Yes.
2
A Because so many of our people
feel that they can't
3 afford it to go on these constant
battles, and so I
4 have often mentioned quite specifically
the three
5 options: You can represent yourself, and the court
6 makes this easier for people these days
by
7 providing information packages that
tell you how to
8 fill out the forms and so on. You can represent
9 yourself. You can go the usual route and have
10 legal counsel, or you can take this
middle ground,
11 which a lot of people would need
because they don't
12 really have the full abilities just to
represent
13 themselves, middle ground being to hire
a lawyer or
14 a paralegal to give you the information
to help you
15 to represent yourself, to help you fill
out those
16 perplexing legal forms, and so on, and
so on.
17 So I, for a long time, have been
very explicit
18 in talking to people about these three
options, and
19 so that if they feel that they cannot
afford a
20 lawyer anymore, and they're really
strongly
21 thinking about doing something else,
then I would
22 present the option of possibly hiring
[Tim] Adams or
23 someone else to help them to represent
themselves.
24 I hope that detail helps.
25
Q It does. Those are the three options that you
26 would have spoken to ECMAS members
about at the
27 relevant time frame relating to the
article
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00146
1 complained of; is that correct?
2
A Yes, ECMAS
"visitors," I think, is better than
3 "members."
4
Q That third option, which is
not self-representation
5 and not retaining on a formal basis a
lawyer to
6 represent you in court, you said [Tim]
Adams would
7 fall into the third option category?
8
A Right.
9
Q And your answer included
having a paralegal or a
10 lawyer "help you with those
perplexing forms." Was
11 there ever a person other than [Tim]
Adams whose
12 name you gave to people in this third
option?
13
A If it will come to me, there's
one lawyer I knew
14 would do things in this way. I imagine many
15 lawyers will not just help people
represent
16 themselves, but there is one, in particular,
that I
17 knew had done so, if I can think of her
name. Her
18 name may come to me later. I could find out, if
19 it's really important. I remember specifically
20 suggesting to people that they could
talk to her
21 about getting help to represent
themselves, because
22 this lawyer had done the same thing at
one point
23 for Abdulahi Mahamad, who is one of our
ECMAS and
24
MERGE members.
25
Q All right.
26
A I probably would not have
recommended anyone else
27 because I'm not aware of -- I don't
know much about
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00147
1 other paralegals, but I certainly would
have
2 suggested that people ask lawyers,
maybe the lawyer
3 they presently have, about this third
option which
4 could save them a lot of money.
5
Q I will ask you to undertake to
provide me with the
6 name of the lawyer whose name escapes
you right
7 now.
Will you give me that undertaking?
8
A I will.
9 UNDERTAKING NO.
15:
10 PROVIDE THE NAME OF THE FEMALE LAWYER
THAT
11 DR. CHRISTENSEN RECOMMENDED TO VISITORS
TO ECMAS.
12 (ANSWERED ON PAGE 148)
13
Q MR. KOZAK: I want to just follow up on a
14 few things that you said though, and
you said that
15 you have a specific recollection of
providing her
16 name.
Do you know who you provided it to.
17
A No, at this date. I'm very certain that I did
18 provide her name on a couple of
occasions just
19 because I knew that she would do this
kind of
20 service.
21 Q
Right. Now, we've spent some time
talking about
22 the position of words, and I just want
to get a
23 sense of how many is a couple? Is that two?
24
A That's two, but it reflects
the uncertainty in my
25 memory.
I have a very strong memory of having
26 mentioned her in this connection, and
it seems to
27 me that it was more than once, but it
wouldn't have
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00148
1 been a great number of times.
2
Q That's helpful.
3
A It would be a best guess.
4
Q Now, did this female lawyer
ever attend meetings of
5 ECMAS?
6
A No.
7
Q All right. So she wouldn't have been --
8
A The name has come back to me.
9
Q Yes.
10
A Deborah Baradziej.
11
Q And do you know how her
surname is spelled?
12
A I've always gotten it wrong,
B-A-R-A-D-J-I-E-Z, I
13 believe, unless it's Z-I-E-J on the
end. You don't
14 know her name, I take it?
15 Q I
don't, but that's not surprising. I've
never
16 practiced matrimonial law.
17
A She did what I felt to be a
very good job of
18 organizing legal materials for Abdulahi
so he could
19 go into court and plead his own
case. I was very
20 impressed with it, and that's why I
suggested her
21 to other people. Though I can't remember to whom,
22 I certainly remember doing it and doing
it more
23 than once.
24
Q Would you agree that in terms
of this third option,
25 that's what I'll call it, for visitors
to ECMAS,
26 that you more frequently referred them
to
27 [Tim] Adams than to Ms., and I've
forgotten --
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00149
1
A Baradziej.
2
Q Baradziej.
3
A Yes, I definitely did that more frequently.
4
Q Why was that?
5
A I have -- and I should put
this on the record. I
6 have a lot of respect for [Tim]
Adams. Through many
7 meetings, I was impressed with the
sensible answers
8 that I heard him give to people when
they were
9 asking for information, not always
legal
10 information, just good, sound,
practical, every-day
11 advice.
And I had a lot of and do have a lot of
12 confidence in his abilities, and
because, in
13 particular, I feel that he is
especially aware of
14 the kinds of problems that people
facing divorce
15 and separation go through, I have been
very quick
16 to recommend him many times.
17
Q All right. So I'm going to try to pin you down
18 again.
I did it with the "couple" of referrals to
19 Ms. Baradziej.
20
A M-hm.
21
Q You've said "many
times" with [Tim] Adams. Can you
22 say, was it dozens?
23
A Dozens, yes. Keeping in mind that when I sent
24 people to [Tim] Adams, it was to explore
various
25 options.
26
Q Yes.
27
A And I could add, most of the
time I sent people to
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00150
1 [Tim] Adams it was simply to get some
free legal
2 information on some specific point that
I couldn't
3 answer.
4
Q All right. Now, was there a time frame when you
5 ceased referring people to Ms.
Baradziej and
6 started referring them to Mr.
Adams? Was there a
7 sequence?
8
A No, no, I can't remember
anything of that nature.
9 Chances are that when I mentioned her
name, I also
10 mentioned his and said: Try them both.
11
Q But that would have only
happened on those two
12 occasions, or three perhaps?
13
A Right.
14
Q Is that fair?
15
A That's fair to say.
16
Q I assume when you referred
people to Ms. Baradziej
17 that she was a barrister and solicitor
and a member
18 of the Law Society of Alberta, to the
best of your
19 knowledge?
20
A That's correct.
21
Q And when you referred people
to [Tim] Adams, he was
22 not?
23
A That's correct.
24
Q How careful were you in
bringing that distinction
25 to people that you referred visitors of
ECMAS to?
26
A In general, I believe I was
fairly careful to tell
27 them that [Tim] is a disbarred
lawyer. I had to
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00151
1 tell them, generally speaking, that he
couldn't
2 represent them because we don't want
people go on
3 thinking that.
4
Q Yes.
5
A There were many times when I
sent people to him
6 for -- just for information when I
didn't mention
7 that kind of thing.
8
Q Yes.
9
A But I'm certainly aware of the
distinction, aware
10 that he was not a barrister and
solicitor and
11 consequently he could only give this
limited kind
12 of service, and that's what I wanted
people to know
13 in sending them to him.
14
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
15
(ADJOURNMENT)
16
Q MR. KOZAK: I had been asking you
17 questions about paragraph 15(t) in the
Statement of
18 Defense and Counterclaim, and you had
provided me
19 with some clarification. I take it that 15(t), you
20 would agree, is relevant to the words
complained
21 of?
22
A Yes.
23
Q Now, in the article itself,
there is a quote, and
24 I'll just -- I'll just read it to
you. It reads:
25 "He has also suggested, at
least
26 eight times, that her nephew fire
27 his lawyer and hire the disbarred
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00152
1 Mr. Adams instead, and he said,
2 'Dump your lawyer, you don't need
a
3 lawyer. [Tim] Adams will help you.
4 Just go to [Tim] Adams. Well, you
5 know, I think you'd be really
6 impressed with [Tim] Adams.'"
7 Do you recall that quote, generally, in
the
8 article?
9
A I recall the quote from the
article, yes.
10
Q Yes. I take it, based on your earlier answer, that
11 you deny speaking those words or
conveying that
12 specific message?
13
A That specific message, yes, I
deny that.
14
Q And do you know who this
passage refers to?
15
A You mean which individuals?
16
Q Yes.
17
A Oh, yes, this is -- well,
let's see now, it's
18 either [the grandmother] or [the Aunt].
19
Q [first name], I'm sorry, what
was that last name?
20
A [last name of grandmother].
21
Q [last name of grandmother],
yes.
22
A [last name spelled out].
23
Q The other name you gave me was
[aunt's first name]?
24
A [aunt's last name].
25
Q Spelled?
26
A [last name spelled out].
27
Q All right. Now, those were both people who came to
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00153
1 ECMAS?
2
A Yes. They're sisters.
3
Q Oh, all right.
4
A I guess that would have been
-- sorry, could you
5 read the quote again? I'll recall which one it was
6
there.
7
Q
8 "He has also suggested, at
least
9 eight times, that her nephew
--"
10
A Nephew, okay. That will be [the aunt].
11
Q Okay. And so it's the word "nephew" that
allows
12 you to identify [the aunt] as the
speaker?
13
A That's right. The group is small enough that this
14 was a clear identifier.
15
Q Do you know [the aunt]'s
nephew?
16
A I believe I met him on two occasions. The article
17 made it sound as if I had spoken
directly to him,
18 but I never did speak to him about such
things. I
19 met him just briefly.
20
Q Do you recall his name?
21
A I do not, in fact.
22
Q But you do recall meeting him?
23
A Yes. As I recall, I met him at a public -- an
24 ECMAS public event on one occasion,
though that may
25 be incorrect; and I'm quite certain that
I met him
26 at the courthouse one day with his
mother and aunt,
27 again, just briefly.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00154
1
Q So you met him on two
occasions?
2
A That's -- I'm fairly sure of
that, but not totally.
3
Q On either of these occasions,
do you recall
4 speaking to the nephew?
5
A I believe I spoke to him on
both occasions.
6
Q What was the subject matter of
your conversation?
7
A Just general getting
acquainted sort of
8 information.
9
Q All right. Do you remember anything about that
10 discussion?
11
A Nothing.
12
Q So you don't know what his
circumstances were or
13 what his issues were?
14
A Well, I knew something about
his circumstances
15 because of having dealt so much with
his mother and
16 his aunt. They came to numerous MERGE meetings,
17 and occasionally to ECMAS meetings, and
they were
18
always working on his
behalf, but he did not come
19 with them. Whether it was for reasons of
20 scheduling or being distressed and not
wanting to
21 deal with it, that I couldn't say.
22
Q Do you recall ever having a
discussion with the
23 nephew about [Tim] Adams?
24
A I do not recall such a
discussion, and I'm quite
25 sure I never had one.
26
Q Right.
27
A With him.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00155
1
Q So, again, I realize this was
sometime ago, but you
2 say you're quite sure. That leaves open the
3 possibility that there was a discussion
with him
4 about [Tim] Adams?
5
A Certainly the abstract
possibility. In case it
6 helps to clarify, a lot of the memory
I'm relying
7 on now is what came to me at the time
of this whole
8 trouble.
9
Q Yes.
10
A And impressing certain things
in my memory then,
11 but, of course, there has been further
memory loss
12 and fading since that time.
13
Q Yes.
14
A I'm certainly aware of the
possibility of memory
15 failing in a person, and so I can't be
sure that I
16 didn't speak to him about [Tim] Adams,
but I do
17 recall our discussion was so brief that
it in all
18 likelihood was just a little getting
acquainted:
19 Oh, you're the son they've been talking
about; bla,
20 bla, bla.
21
Q And in your conversation with
the nephew, was it
22 your impression that he was well
familiar with who
23 you were?
24
A That he knew something about
how I was trying to
25 help his mother and aunt.
26
Q What was going on at the
courthouse?
27
A That I've tried to remember in
recalling this, and
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00156
1 I'm just not sure.
2
Q Do you recall if [the aunt]'s
nephew was
3 represented by a lawyer on the two
occasions when
4 you met him?
5
A That, as I remember it, he
was, but the memory is
6 so fuzzy that all I -- but mostly it's
probably
7 been influenced by my reading of these
transcripts
8 since then, and so -- but my memory,
such as it is,
9 is that he had a lawyer that they were
not
10 particularly -- they were not
particularly happy
11 with going on paying and paying, but
the memory is
12 very, very fuzzy.
13
Q Was [the aunt]'s nephew
embroiled in some issue
14 that related to family violence or
allegations of
15 family violence?
16
A Yes. As I recall in this case, I don't recall
17 whether -- specifically, whether
accusations had
18 been made against him, and I have very
little
19 specific memory, other than that they
were
20 constantly dealing with court and with
Child
21 Welfare, trying to get the courts or
Child Welfare
22 to recognize that the mother of his
child was a
23 very disreputable person harmful to the
child.
24 That's the main thing I recall about
their case.
25
Beyond that, I'm afraid my
memory is too faded at
26 this point.
27
Q I take it that you have no way
of finding out, on
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00157
1 the two occasions when you met the
nephew, whether
2 he was represented by legal counsel,
and, if so,
3 who it was?
4
A Other than by asking the
mother or the aunt.
5
Q All right.
6
A No, I'm sure there's no way
for me to -- and I'm
7 reasonably sure I never knew.
8
Q Now, switching from
conversations that you had with
9 the nephew to conversations that you
had with
10 [the aunt], is that the sister of the
other
11 person you mentioned, [the
grandmother]?
12
A Yes, [the grandmother] was his
mother.
13
Q Yes. [the aunt] was the aunt?
14
A The aunt.
15
Q Now, let's talk about
conversations that you had
16 with [the aunt] and this passage again.
17 "He has also suggested, at
least
18 eight times, that her nephew fire
19 his lawyer and hire the disbarred
20 Mr. Adams instead."
21 Do you remember having conversations
with
22 [the aunt] about that?
23
A I had conversations with both
of them about talking
24 to [Tim] Adams.
25
Q That's [the aunt] and [the
grandmother]?
26
A Right.
27
Q And do you have any reason to
believe that her
A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00158
1 assertion that it was at least eight
times is
2 inaccurate?
3
A I certainly do.
4
Q And why is that?
5
A Well, here again, you
understand that one doesn't
6 have specific memories of all
conversations. What
7 I do remember is that for a long time
they would --
8 they would complain to me about the
burden of these
9 ongoing court battles, and when I first
became
10 aware that [Tim] Adams could help them
and possibly
11 reduce that burden, I believe I phoned
him [them] up to
12 tell him [them] about it. Chances -- it's possible I
13 phoned each of them about it.
14
Q Yes.
15
A Again, I have no specific
memories here, but
16 it's -- but just sort of a very, very
faint memory
17 here.
And I have quite a specific memory at a
18 specific meeting at a later time of
reminding them
19 and asking them whether they had
contacted him,
20 thinking -- being pretty sure that they
had not
21 because he hadn't said anything to me
about it.
22 And beyond that, I can well imagine
that I might
23 have mentioned it once, possibly even
twice more,
24 but I cannot -- both in terms of the
way I
25 generally do things and such memories
as I -- such
26 vague memories that I do have, I cannot
imagine
27 having mentioned it more than four
times. Three or
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00159
1 four is what I would say.
2
Q Now, I don't want to split
hairs, but when I was
3 listening to your best efforts to
recollect those
4 distant memories, I counted five, and I
thought
5 there was a telephone conversation with
6 [the aunt], a telephone conversation
that might
7 have also been placed to [the grandmother], a
reminder
8 at a meeting, and then I think you said
there may
9 have been a couple of other occasions,
so is it
10 possible it was as many as five times?
11
A I don't think so. I think if I said a couple, and
12 then I would -- I would think three or
four is
13 about it. I'm about as certain as I can be that I
14 didn't go beyond that. This -- there was -- I was
15 very concerned about them. I worked with them a
16 lot and knew the pain that they were
going through,
17 and so naturally I was giving them
whatever
18
insights I thought I had to
help them.
19
Q Yes.
20
A But it simply is not in my
character, quite apart
21 -- and quite apart from -- in fact, I
think I would
22 remember it if I had asked them so many
times. Not
23 only do I not have any such memory, but
it's not in
24 character to keep mentioning it. The point was
25 made, and from then on, there was
nothing more to
26 be said.
27
Q But the initial suggestion
that you made to them
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00160
1 was in a telephone conversation that
you initiated;
2 is that accurate?
3
A Very faintly in my memory, I
think that's how it
4 would have -- I had the idea: Well, here's a new
5 idea for them. They've been complaining about
6 this, I'll call them up about this.
7
Q Right.
8
A And I think that's likely how
it started.
9
Q Now, you described their
complaints as a general
10 thing having to do with this ordeal
that they were
11 going through?
12
A M-hm.
13
Q But do you recall if they had
a specific complaint
14 about their lawyer, either the quality
of legal
15 advice they were getting or perhaps the
fact that
16 it was costing so much?
17
A The expense. Here again, my memory may have been
18 affected by the transcripts, but it
does seem to me
19 that this was a major concern was the
expense. I
20 do not remember specific complaints
about their
21 lawyer's service otherwise, other than
the general
22 one of not succeeding. But that, of course, is not
23
necessarily a lawyer's fault,
so . . .
24
Q Did you ever ask [Tim] Adams if
[the aunt] had
25 contacted him?
26
A I have no specific
memory. It's likely that I did
27 and that that would be the reason why
at this later
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1 meeting I raised the question.
2
Q That you raised the question
with [the aunt]
3 again?
4
A Well, they were both at that
meeting, I believe,
5 so. . .
6
Q Yes. Do you recall the date of that meeting.
7
A No. I do recall the occasion.
8
Q Where was that?
9
A The home of one of the board
members of ECMAS.
10
Q Whose home was that?
11
A Ron Marshall is his name.
12
Q And is that a meeting that was
attended by
13 [the aunt], [the grandmother], and [Tim]
Adams?
14
A [Tim] Adams would not have been
there, no. The two
15 of them, yes.
16
Q In any of your discussions
with [the aunt] or
17 [the grandmother] about getting the
assistance of
18 [Tim] Adams, did you convey information
about
19 [Tim] Adams' background, that is, that
he was once a
20 lawyer and was disbarred?
21
A Here again, the memory is so
fuzzy that I couldn't
22 be sure of an answer to that. What I am quite sure
23 of, because just for practical reasons,
is that I
24 would have talked about the -- I made
the point
25
that he would help them to
represent themselves,
26 because he couldn't do it. That much at least.
27 But even that is only -- is based on
just knowing
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1 what I did, in general, not specific
memories of
2 specific conversations.
3
Q So that answer is based on
your recollection of
4 what your general practice was and not
what
5 happened in this specific instance?
6
A That's correct.
7
Q When you describe it in that
fashion, that is: I
8 suggested that they speak to [Tim] Adams
because he
9 could help them help themselves, or
similar wards,
10 I'm curious, didn't people ever ask you
why you
11 couldn't play that role?
12
A Why I couldn't play?
13 Q
The same role, helping them to help themselves?
14
A I don't recall whether anyone
ever asked that, that
15 is, I don't have a specific
recollection. It
16 fuzzily seems to me that I have been asked
17 something along those lines on
occasion, but mostly
18 they wouldn't ask because I clearly
have no legal
19 background.
20
Q Well, that wouldn't
necessarily be clear to them.
21 A
That's right.
22
Q And that leads, I guess, to my
next question, which
23 is:
Given that you were essentially in the same
24 position as [Tim] Adams insofar as you
could help
25 people help themselves, acknowledging,
of course,
26 that you didn't have the legal training
that
27 [Tim] Adams had, what would you say to
people who
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1 you referred to [Tim] Adams about why
they could get
2 help from him and not you?
3
A Well, it almost seems like an
odd question. I know
4
virtually nothing about the
Rules of Court. The
5 little bit that I've learned is mostly
in this
6 lawsuit. I know very little about the laws
7 involved, except in a general way, and
the
8 procedures of filling out forms, and on
-- and
9 endless details I really know nothing
about, the
10 question would hardly arise. So, I guess, if
11 somebody were to ask for my help, the
answer would
12 be:
I know virtually nothing about how the system
13 works.
14
Q There's another passage from
the article, and I'll
15 read it to you. I don't know if you have a copy of
16
the article. I'm not sure that it's necessary, but
17 if it is, feel free to ask your counsel
to provide
18 it to you. The passage reads:
19 "Another woman describes
20 Christensen's very persistent
21 attempts to persuade her son to
22 become a client of Mr. Adams, 'He
23 constantly kept calling. Why don't
24 you quit your lawyer? Go to
25 [Tim] Adams. Go to [Tim] Adams.'"
26 Do you know who that is?
27
A That would be [the
grandmother].
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1
Q And that is the sister of [the
aunt]?
2
A Yes.
3
Q Another passage:
4 "'What you should do is call
[Tim].
5 [Tim] is a lawyer. You should talk
6 to [Tim].' I've heard him say that
7 several times. But he's never said,
8 '[Tim] is a disbarred lawyer, but
he
9 can still help you.' Ferrel's very
10 adamant and very sure that the
only
11 person that can really help in
that
12 group is [Tim] Adams."
13 Do you know who the speaker is there?
14
A Yes. That would be [Source A].
15
Q [Source A]. How is it that you're able to identify
16 [Source A] from that passage?
17
A Not from that passage alone.
18
Q Oh.
19
A But from all the -- all of the
other details, the
20 other quotes from him in the two
articles, and even
21 more so from the details in the
transcripts that
22 have been turned over.
23
Q All right.
24
A Many things identify him,
quite clearly. Keeping
25 in mind, this is a small group.
26
Q Yes.
27
A There are not that many
candidates.
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1
Q All right. And who is [Source A]?
2
A Depending on how much you want
to know. He was --
3 he came into the ECMAS group about a
year before
4 the events in question here. He got very active
5 very quickly and came to most of the
support group
6 meetings, started coming to the monthly
general
7 meeting as well, and during the process
was
8 appointed by the president to be part
of the
9 Public Affairs Committee for
ECMAS. And, well,
10 there's a long story here. I'm not sure how much
11 you want me to say.
12
Q Well, I'd like to hear it.
13
A He was, at the annual general
meeting, in league
14 with Ms. Malenfant. He ran for president of ECMAS.
15 There's so many details, I don't -- I
don't think
16 it would be wise to keep . . .
17
Q Well, I'll ask you a few
questions. What was it
18 that brought him to ECMAS?
19
A Like most people, he had some
kind of a divorce
20 problem himself at one point, divorce
or
21 separation, and he learned about us,
perhaps on the
22 Internet. I'm not sure about that, but that was
23 the background that brought him -- got
him
24 interested.
25
Q Did he have any family violence issue?
26
A My memory is certainly fuzzy
on this.
27
Q By "issue," I mean
allegation, of course.
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1
A I seem to remember that he
did, but I'm not sure
2 what.
Definitely a custody-type problem.
It was
3 the custody issue that got him
involved, and so he
4 got involved with ECMAS, and there must
not have
5 been anything particularly relevant to
MERGE. It
6 may have been something, but nothing
important
7 enough to have him get involved in --
get involved
8 with MERGE, so . . .
9
Q So he was not involved in
MERGE?
10
A That's right.
11
Q Now, do you know if [Source A]
had retained a
12 lawyer to help him with his custody problem?
13
A I seem to remember that his
custody -- I knew
14 something about his custody
problems. I was in his
15 house and saw him with his son, very
young child.
16 I had the impression that most of his
custody
17 problems were behind him at that
point. In any
18 case, I don't recall much about the
nature of the
19 problems. Some sort of access denial. Something
20 along those lines is all I can seem to
recall.
21
Q But do you know if [Source A]
had a lawyer that he
22 was using for whatever those problems
were?
23
A I do not.
24
Q Do you recall any
conversations with [Source A]
25 where you recommended that he speak to
[Tim]?
26
A No, and I would not have done
so because he started
27 coming to the support group meeting and
met [Tim]
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1 there himself. He was coming to the meetings a
2 great deal. So, no, I can't imagine I would have
3 done that for any reason.
4
Q You say you can't imagine that
you would have done
5 that.
Is it a possibility that, in some
6 conversation, you suggested that
[Source A] speak to
7 [Tim] about legal issues?
8
A Again, I don't think so
because he -- by that
9 point -- by coming to the meeting, he
met [Tim]
10 himself and started coming
regularly. There
11 wouldn't have been any need to give him
that kind
12 of information that I often gave to
others.
13
Q Okay. Now, the passage that I've cited from the
14 article may also be the speaker's
recollection of
15 you talking to someone else.
16
A I believe that that was his
recollection of my
17 saying certain things in the support
group meeting
18 itself.
19
Q Yes. And so do you recall any occasions where
20
[Source A], if [Source A] is the
speaker, would
21 have been present at a support group
meeting where
22 you made the recommendation to somebody
else in the
23 meeting that they speak to [Tim]?
24
A Again, at the time that this all happened,
four
25 years ago, I searched my memory, and I
could
26 remember on more than one occasion, but
not many,
27 speaking -- suggesting that people
confer further
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1 with [Tim] outside the meeting about
their cases.
2 Most of the time when I recommended
people talk to
3 [Tim], it was on the telephone outside
the meeting;
4 but I also recall on a few -- just a
few occasions
5 doing so at the meeting, if that
answers the
6 question.
7 Q
That's very helpful. You said
"on more than one
8 occasion," and then you said
"on a few occasions."
9 Can you give me an estimate of the
number of times
10 you would have done that at meetings?
11
A Can you be more specific about
"done"? What
12 specifically --
13
Q Made a recommendation to
someone at the support
14 group meeting that they consult [Tim]
Adams.
15
A If it's "consult" in
some broad sense, not
16 necessarily hiring him.
17
Q Yes.
18
A It would probably -- at least
a dozen times, I
19 would think, keeping in mind that
mostly,
20 overwhelmingly, when I did that, it was
for them to
21 get some specific piece of information,
not to talk
22 about hiring him.
23
Q Yes, and that's consistent
with your confirmation
24 that you held him in high regard.
25
A Right.
26
Q You had respect for [Tim]
Adams. You viewed him as
27 a good resource for people, and a third
option, in
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1 the trio of options, and, therefore, to
me, it's
2 not surprising that you would have made
that
3 recommendation a dozen times, approximately,
within
4 the context of a support group
meeting. Is that
5 accurate?
6
A Yes, and many more times when
I was talking to
7 people on the phone, other -- outside
the support
8 meeting.
9
Q Yes. Now, the passage that I've referred to,
10 again, the speaker doesn't say that you
were saying
11 that they retained [Tim]. He just says:
12 "'[Tim] is a lawyer. You should talk
13 to [Tim].'"
14 And that's consistent with what you
would have said
15 at the meeting; is that correct?
16
A Well, the part about the
lawyer is perhaps crucial
17 here.
18
Q Yes.
19
A Again, reflecting on this at
the time this was
20 published in the paper and thinking
back, I doubt
21 that in that meeting I would have said
anything
22 about his being a lawyer more than two
or three
23 times.
And also explaining to people:
Well, now,
24 he can't represent you, nevertheless,
he is a
25 lawyer and can give you -- can help you
to help
26 yourself.
27
Q Yes.
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1
A Often enough I would have
suggested that they talk
2 to him without -- without using the
word "lawyer,"
3 but I do believe that on two or three
times I did
4 speak of him as a lawyer saying that he
can't
5 represent you, but he is a lawyer.
6
Q All right. And that's consistent with what the
7 speaker has said as well. He says that, at the
8 support group meeting, you never once
said, "[Tim]
9 is a disbarred lawyer." You would have said: He
10 can't represent you, or words to that
effect; is
11 that accurate?
12
A Words to that effect,
yes. I believe it's correct
13 that I didn't mention that he was
disbarred on
14 those two or three occasions when I
spoke of him as
15 a lawyer, and the reason for that, I
think, is
16 important. It's a long, complex story, his
17 disbarment.
18
Q Yes.
19
A And those meetings in those
days were desperately
20 short of time. More people wanted to tell their
21 stories and get feedback from the group
than could
22 be well accommodated, and so going off
onto a side
23 explanation that might get very time
consuming was
24 not wise. As I've said elsewhere, I believe, you
25 may have read in "My Case," I
saw no need to
26 mention the disbarment because [Tim]
would tell them
27 about it himself, and . . .
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1
Q Yes, I have read that, and you
do refer to that in
2 the document "My Case." Did you not think though
3 that it was an important piece of
information to
4 the people at those support group
meetings, people
5 that you were suggesting speak to [Tim]
Adams?
6
A Yes, it's important.
7
Q Now, in this passage that I've
referred to, that
8 you believe was made by [Source A],
appear the
9 words:
10 "Ferrel's very adamant and
very sure
11 that the only person that can
really
12 help in that group is [Tim]
Adams."
13 I take it that you would disagree with
that
14 statement?
15
A I think it's an overstatement,
but there's an
16 important kernel of truth there.
17
Q Yes. So that speaker summarizing the meeting in
18 that fashion, there's an important
kernel of truth
19 in that?
20
A Yes. [Tim] was the only one coming to those
21 meetings who really knew what the --
the way the
22 court system works. He had a lot of knowledge
23
about the law, and the court
procedures, and so on,
24 and this was very valuable. And, now, it's
25 certainly not true that he's the only
one. In
26 fact, the point of the meetings in the
first place
27 was to have the collective experience
--
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1
Q Yes.
2
A -- of all these lay
individuals on all sorts of
3 things, not all just directly in the
matter of how
4 the court operates but even in regard
to their
5 experience in court, and this
collective experience
6
was very valuable, but, at the
same time, he was
7 the only one with lots of such
knowledge, and that
8 sort of knowledge was very much needed
by the
9 group.
10
Q So perhaps it would have been
better if the speaker
11 had said, in conveying this message,
that you
12 hadn't said that he was the only person
in the
13 group that could really help. Perhaps it would be
14 more accurate to say that he was the
best person in
15 that group for help?
16
A Well, by far the best, and the
possessor of
17 knowledge that, generally speaking --
much
18 knowledge that no one else there did
have.
19
Q There's another passage in the
article . . .
20
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
21
22
(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:00 P.M.)
23
(PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 1:30 P.M.)
24
25 Q
MR. KOZAK: Dr.
Christensen, there is
26 another passage in the article which
reads:
27 "Professor Christensen has
urged him
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1 to hire Mr. Adams. He says, 'Just
2 the one time. It was at a meeting,
3 but I don't remember if it was
4
during a meeting or
afterwards. We
5 usually go downstairs to (a
6 restaurant) and tend to BS a
little.
7 And that's what [Tim] calls his
8 office. It's kind of an inside
9 joke.'"
10 Now, do you know the speaker of that
statement?
11
A [Source B].
12
Q [first name of Source B]?
13
A [spelling out name], I
believe.
14
Q And how are you able to
determine that the speaker
15 is [Source B]?
16
A The details of the transcript
that were turned
17 over, and, again, the fact that this is
a small
18 group where we knew which people had
sided with
19 Louise Malenfant, and I can't say more
without
20 looking back at the actual transcript
and reminding
21 myself, but that's it, in general.
22
Q And by "transcripts"
are you referring to
23 transcripts of interviews done with
people by
24 Donna Laframboise?
25
A I am.
26
Q Now, who was [Source B]?
27
A He was associated with the two
sisters whom we've
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1 talked about, the association being
that
2 [the grandmother]'s son and [Source
B] had children
3 by the same woman and were going
through many of
4 the same difficulties. I don't know how they
5 originally got in touch with each
other, but
6 [the grandmother] brought [Source B] to
his first
7 ECMAS support group meeting.
8
Q So, I'm sorry, [the
grandmother]'s son?
9
A And [Source B] both had
children with the same
10 woman with whom they were having these
ongoing
11 difficulties involving the courts and
Child
12 Welfare.
13
Q I see. That's an interesting relationship.
14
A Yes.
15
Q And so you recall meeting
[Source B], obviously?
16
A Yes, indeed.
17
Q And do you recall the specific
circumstances he
18 found himself in that caused him to
seek the help
19 of ECMAS?
20
A Not highly specific at this
point. No, I guess I
21 shouldn't say more because I'm -- I
could certainly
22 look up old documents and things, but I
don't
23 remember anything specific beyond what
I've just
24 said.
25 Q
When you say you could look up old documents, are
26 those documents that you've produced in
this
27 lawsuit?
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1
A Yes. Well, no.
I should answer carefully here.
2 The old documents would mostly be notes
from the
3 support group, some of which I have
produced with
4 this suit, and I guess that together
with the
5 things that they would trigger in my
memory is what
6 I had in mind when I said that.
7
Q Well, I don't want to go on a
fishing expedition,
8 but from your answer I gather you've
produced some
9 notes from support group meetings and
not others;
10 is that accurate?
11
A That's correct.
12
Q And how did you differentiate
between the two?
13
A The ones produced were for a
period of roughly
14 three months before and roughly three
months after
15 the Post article.
16
Q Well, I'm going to ask you to
undertake to produce
17
all of the notes that you
have for support group
18 meetings, and you can seek the advice
of your
19 lawyer on the relevance, but I'll ask
you for that
20 undertaking.
21
MR. BROWN: We'll take that under
22 advisement. It's very likely that it will
23 completely be irrelevant, but maybe you
want to
24 compel production if we decide it is
irrelevant.
25
MR. KOZAK: Thank you.
26 UNDERTAKING NO.
16:
27 (UNDER ADVISEMENT) PRODUCE ALL OF THE NOTES THAT
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1 DR. CHRISTENSEN HAS FOR SUPPORT GROUP
MEETINGS.
2
Q MR. KOZAK: Now, do you recall speaking to
3 [Source B] about Mr. Adams?
4
A I do not.
5
Q Is it possible that you did speak to [Source
B]
6 about Mr. Adams?
7
A It certainly is possible, yes.
8
Q And do you have any reason to
doubt the accuracy of
9 what he says in this passage?
10
A No specific reason. Let me look at the passage
11 again.
No specific reason to doubt that I
12 suggested he talk to Mr. Adams.
13
A I certainly have some
objection to part of what was
14 said in there, but it doesn't bear on
my suggesting
15 that he talk to Mr. Adams.
16
Q What things in that passage do
you take exception
17 to, beginning with:
18 "Professor Christensen has
urged him..."
19
A Let me take a look, make sure
I don't misstate
20 anything. Okay.
It's the very -- the very last
21 thing he says there:
22 "And that's what [Tim] calls
his
23 office."
24 To my knowledge, [Tim] never said any
such thing as
25 that.
What is the case is that the leader of the
26 group, the support group, Jiggs Haiden,
would
27
frequently refer to the pub
downstairs as "[Tim]'s
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1 study." I never -- I can't remember [Tim] ever
2 referring to it as his office, or his
study, or
3 anything like that; but I certainly
recall
4 Mr. Haiden often calling it
"[Tim]'s study."
5
Q All right. Fair enough.
Other than that, you
6 don't take exception to anything in
that passage?
7
A That's correct. I do not.
8
Q Now, let's go back to an
earlier subparagraph in 15
9 that I asked you about, paragraph
15(b). That
10 passage reads:
11 "Some persons involved with
ECMAS
12 have been falsely accused of
13 sexually abusing children."
14
A M-hm.
15
Q Do you have that passage?
16
A Yes.
17
Q And I want to ask you a few
questions about that.
18 Is it your experience that allegations
of sexual
19 abuse against children is often seen as
a relevant
20
criteria by courts in
deciding custody and family
21 law issues?
22
A In my experience over time,
these accusations have
23 often been made in custody cases. To say that the
24 courts -- how often the courts take
them seriously
25 and act on them, that I couldn't say,
if that's the
26 question. Surely, if the courts felt that there
27 was sex abuse, they would want to
prevent custody,
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1 or prevent access, or something along
those lines.
2 But how often they do, if that's your
question, is
3 not something that I can speak to,
except in a very
4 general way. It seemed to me over time, from the
5 late 1980s onward, that the courts
began to take
6 the accusations less seriously because
of realizing
7 that they were often malicious.
8
Q All right. That's a fair answer to a general
9 question. What is your assessment of the impact of
10 those allegations of sexual abuse of
children on
11 the person accused of the abuse through
your
12 involvement with ECMAS?
13
A Oh, it tends to be
devastating. The people that
14 come to ECMAS and MERGE often come
because of not
15 knowing where else to turn and needing
help; and
16 when it's a case of false accusation of
any kind,
17 they -- there is a -- it's clearly a
big impact on
18 them, and often it's part of the reason
that they
19 come.
20
Q How did you distinguish
between false accusations
21 and valid accusations of sexual abuse
of children?
22
A I certainly try not to make that
decision. I
23 clearly wasn't there. What I am aware of is that a
24 lot of people who claim that they had
been falsely
25 accused give indications of being
sincere and being
26 innocent, but those indications are,
you know, the
27 very sort of general thing that anybody
might rely
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1 on and certainly not something that one
should go
2 around feeling sure of. We have met people that I
3 eventually decided were not to be
trusted and
4 others who, after knowing them a while,
I felt were
5 very trustworthy, but I certainly tried
to keep
6 myself from making any judgment about
what they
7 actually did.
8
Q So is it fair to say that you
started from the
9
presumption that they were falsely accused?
10
A No. No. I
started from the presumption that I
11 should treat these people with sympathy
and respect
12 and give whatever help was possible
without making
13 any judgments of that kind, but
certainly being
14 aware that they certainly could be --
that they're
15 innocent; and if they are, they
certainly need
16 whatever help we can give.
17 Q Passage 15(e), which is one that we dealt
with
18 earlier.
19
A M-hm.
20
Q It's the passage that deals
with the consideration
21 of a motion by ECMAS to suspend you
from the group
22 for three months. Were you aware of that proposal
23 prior to the meeting on March 25th,
2001?
24
A No.
25
Q So you went to that meeting
not knowing that ECMAS
26 might consider such a motion?
27
A I went to the meeting knowing
that they were
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00180
1 considering a motion -- they would
consider a
2 motion to suspend my membership. That particular
3 version apparently came up at the
meeting after I
4 left.
5 To fill out, I think it might be
helpful. The
6 meeting ran from sometime in the
afternoon on into
7 the evening. The first part of the meeting,
8 Mr. Adams and I were there to give
further
9 information; and then when they got
into the full
10 discussion and the votes, Mr. Adams and
I left, and
11 information I have is secondhand from
that point
12 on.
13
Q Right. The afternoon portion of the meeting when
14 you and Mr. Adams gave further
information, was
15 that information about issues that are
the subject
16 matter of this lawsuit?
17
A That's correct.
18
Q So was it a meeting called
especially for that
19 purpose?
20
A It was called especially for
the purpose of
21 considering all of these events, the
threatened
22 article in the Post, and, in
particular, the
23 question of Mr. Adams and my continued --
24 continuing with ECMAS in the same
capacity.
25
Q And so how did the meeting
evolve? Were you asked
26 to address these issues verbally, or
was it a
27
question and answer
period? What happened?
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
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1
A It was very informal, talking
back and forth.
2 That's about the best description I
could give.
3
Q Who chaired the meeting?
4
A Bob Bouvier, the president of
ECMAS.
5
Q Did he start the meeting by
introducing the subject
6 matter, or giving a chronology of
events, or
7 explaining what it was that -- the
business that
8 would be conducted at the meeting?
9
A I have no recollection of the
details.
10
Q Had you --
11 A
Of that kind of detail, sorry.
12
Q Had you attended the meeting
with any kind of
13 prepared text, or chronology of events,
or points?
14
A No.
15
Q So you had an opportunity to
address people, or
16 informally respond to questions, or say
things. I
17 assume that Mr. Adams did as well.
18
A Correct.
19
Q And at a certain point in
time, obviously, you left
20 the meeting. What precipitated that?
21
A Well, it was not felt to be
proper for us to be
22 there for the final discussion and
voting. It's an
23 obvious conflict of interest sort of
thing.
24
Q Did you have a good sense of what the motion
would
25 be that would be under consideration
after you
26 left?
27
A The part about the three-month
suspension, I knew
A.C.E. Reporting
Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00182
1 nothing about when I left.
2
Q So you didn't know whether
somebody would propose a
3 motion to eject you permanently, or a
three-month
4 suspension, or business as usual? You had no
5 inkling of that at all?
6
A That's right. Just in a general sort of way, it
7 was whether to suspend me or not.
8 Q
What was the general tenor of the discussion of
9 that meeting?
10
A I guess I'd need a clear
question.
11
Q Did you feel that you were
being confronted or
12 accused, or were you being supported or
consoled?
13
A I felt that the people there
were quite supportive
14 of both me and [Tim]. Some of the people there knew
15 me more than others, and they were very
supportive.
16
I guess the most -- the best I
could say about the
17 general tenor is that they were very
upset that
18 they were being put in this
position. It felt that
19 it was a very dangerous position to be
in, so I had
20 to decide what was best for the group.
21
Q And do you remember [Tim] Adams
addressing the group
22 at the meeting?
23
A Not in any specific, no.
24
Q And were they generally
supportive of Mr. Adams in
25 addition to you?
26
A Yes. I think it's fair to say that they were all
27 quite supportive, but, of course, some
people
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
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1 wouldn't say everything that they
think, but quite
2 supportive is how I would describe the
people
3 there.
4
Q Was ECMAS Edmonton asked by the Calgary
branch of
5 ECMAS to take steps with respect to
your views and
6 your continuing involvement with ECMAS
Edmonton?
7
A I believe you know as much as
I on that case. The
8 Calgary group sent a letter basically
demanding
9 that I be removed, and demanding that
Mr. Adams be
10 removed.
11
Q And you're referring to a
document that you've
12 included in your production, I assume?
13
A Yes, indeed. In fact, I think it was in your
14 production as well, but, anyway, it's
in there
15 somewhere.
16
Q I have it listed as 12.2 in
your production, but
17 you don't have to find it because I'm
not going to
18 ask anymore questions about it.
19 I would ask you to refer to
document 22.1 in
20 your production.
21
MR. BROWN: 22. --
22
MR. KOZAK: 1.
23
A Okay.
24
Q MR. KOZAK: Do you see the reference to --
25 this, obviously, is an email from Bob
Bouvier
26 apparently sent to Donna Laframboise?
27
A Yes.
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00184
1
Q Is that your information as
well?
2
A Yes, indeed.
3
Q Part of the text of that email
reads:
4 "As the board of the Edmonton
5 chapter of ECMAS, we should
suspend
6 Ferrel Christensen as a member of
7 the Edmonton chapter of ECMAS for
a
8 period of three months, and in
this
9 time investigate whether his views
10 conflict with the guiding
principles
11 and policies of ECMAS."
12 When did you first become aware of this
motion
13 being put to the members assembled on
March 25th,
14 2001?
15
A After the meeting was over,
Mr. Bouvier phoned me
16 to let me know what had transpired
after I left,
17 and he described it to me then.
18
Q What did he tell you about
that motion and the
19 outcome of the vote?
20
A Well, the outcome of the vote,
this has not been --
21 this was not published. It was a somewhat
22 complicated matter, so I'll just fill
that out, if
23 I may.
24
Q Sure.
25
A And, again, this was all what
he told me, of course.
26
Q Yes.
27
A There were -- the vote came
out against me by a
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00185
1 margin of one vote.
2
Q Yes.
3
A That is, to pass this motion;
however, things were
4 sort of rushed and scrambled, and
everyone was
5 tired at the end of the meeting, and so
they broke
6 up right after the vote, and then he
realized that
7 there were two major problems here with
the vote
8 that had been taken. One item is that they had
9 forgotten to contact by telephone the
board members
10 who were not able to be at that meeting
and who
11 were waiting at home to be phoned for
any final
12 votes.
I hope this is fairly clear.
13 One woman -- one of the two board members,
14 both women, one was at home, not very
well. She
15 had been at the prior meeting on the
preceding
16 Wednesday where these things were
discussed for the
17 first time, but she was not feeling
well, so she
18 stayed home, and with the understanding
that she
19 would be called for any final
decisions.
20 The other board member was also at
home with
21 her child, waiting at home for the same
reason, to
22 be called for any final decisions. And in being
23 tired and rushed at the end, they had
forgotten to
24 call these two women, both of whom had
been at the
25 Wednesday meeting, to call them for
their votes.
26 So there was this irregularity in the
voting.
27 The other irregularity which Mr.
Bouvier was
A.C.E. Reporting Services Inc.
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00186
1 late in realizing until afterwards
involved two --
2 it's sort of an unusual thing that
ECMAS does,
3 allowing two persons to occupy one
office. It's
4 something that's been done repeatedly
because it's
5 so hard to find people who had much
time to put in.
6 And so the two persons, [Source A] and [his girlfriend],
7 at the previous -- at the annual
general meeting
8 had been elected jointly to fill an
office -- a
9 position on the board, and, by the
bylaws, that
10 allowed them only one vote on the
board.
11 Nevertheless, according to what Mr.
Bouvier told
12 me, he finally -- as he finally
realized it, they
13 had given separate votes, two votes, in
that final
14 vote on me and Mr. Adams.
15
Q Presumably they had voted
against you?
16
A When I look back over it and
count up people that
17 told me that they voted for me, the two
of them
18 quite clearly had voted against
me. And so in
19 discussing this whole matter with Mr.
Bouvier
20 afterwards, he basically said that he
was sorry
21 that this had happened. It was rushed, they were
22 tired, and so on, but that he would be
calling
23 people to get it all straightened out
before
24 considering this to be the final
decision of the
25 board.
I hope that's clear.
26
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
27
Q MR. KOZAK: So who were the two female
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
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00187
1 members who were at home?
2 A
Bev Fowler.
3
Q Yes.
4
A And Gail Radford-Ross. That's a hyphenated last
5 name.
6
Q Did the bylaws permit them to
vote even if they
7 hadn't been present for the debate?
8
A The bylaws allowed for voting
and meetings by
9 telephone, and that was the
understanding that they
10 were acting under.
11
Q So what eventually
happened? Bob Bouvier called
12 you at home to say: Here's what's happened. You
13 were suspended for three months as a
result of the
14 vote, but there were two
irregularities, and I'm
15 going to fix things up, or address them,
whatever
16 he said?
17
A Roughly. The vote was -- he was not considering
18 the vote valid because of those
irregularities.
19
Q And what happened after that,
to the best of your
20 knowledge?
21
A To my knowledge, again gotten
from him and others
22 that I spoke to, he contacted the other
board
23 members, and to get a final vote tally,
all done by
24 telephone. There was not another actual coming
25 together.
26
Q Yes.
27
A And on that basis, he said
that the vote had gone
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00188
1 in my favor against this resolution,
and so the
2 motion failed.
3
Q Now, did that, to your
knowledge, come as a
4 surprise to any of the members who had
left the
5 meeting thinking that the motion had
passed?
6
A I have no direct knowledge of
that. One would --
7 one would think so, but I'm going by
what he told
8 me.
9
Q Yes.
10
A And that's my understanding.
11
Q How long was it between the
initial call from
12 Bob Bouvier saying that the motion had
been passed
13 and when you heard from him that, in
fact, the
14 motion had been
defeated?
15
A I think he had settled it all
by making the
16 appropriate phone calls by Tuesday
evening
17 following.
18
Q And this was -- this meeting
was on what?
19
A It was held on Sunday.
20
Q Sunday, so a period of two
days, approximately?
21
A I believe this email indicates
that things are sort
22 of hanging, the need to reconvened to
vote; but
23 they did not reconvene, as I
understand. He simply
24 talked to all of the board members on
the phone to
25 get their -- to get their final votes.
26
Q Was there any discussion about
whether these
27 irregularities had any impact on the
earlier
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
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1 motions dealing with [Tim] Adams?
2 A No.
My understanding is that they did not, and I
3 believe it's fairly clear in here that
the motion
4 to accept [Tim] Adams' resignation as
vice president
5 was accepted, and the motion to suspend
his
6 membership or to end his membership in
ECMAS was
7 simply defeated at the time.
8
Q Well, what's not clear to me
though is whether
9 those were close votes; and, if so,
whether the
10 people who had the right to participate
and didn't
11 might have changed the outcome?
12
A I'm afraid I can't give any
more information than
13 that.
I don't know how close the votes on [Tim]
14 were, and I can't speak to that.
15
Q Would you agree that the
outcome of this vote, that
16 is, the eventual outcome of the vote,
was an
17 endorsement that your views were not
inconsistent
18 with those of ECMAS?
19
A I guess so, keeping in mind
that when the people
20 voted, they hadn't actually read my
book. I was
21 handing out copies for them to look at,
and some of
22 them took the copies home with
them. They couldn't
23 say for certain what was in the
book. They had to
24 go by what they knew about me, and I
was there
25 telling them that the allegation that
26 Ms. Laframboise allegedly made to Mr.
Bouvier was
27 false.
They -- I believe that they generally were
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00190
1 willing to accept my word on that, even
though they
2 felt that they were in a very hard
situation, and
3 hence the compromise idea of just
suspending me for
4
a short time until heat was off,
or something like
5 that.
My feeling was that they were quite willing
6 to trust my word, but they did not have
direct
7 knowledge, so that's the situation they
were in.
8
Q Now, in 15(p), that's the
statement that deals with
9 the Calgary chapter of ECMAS resigning
and
10 disassociating itself from the ECMAS
trade name.
11 Do you know of the reasons for the action
taken by
12 the Calgary board members?
13
A As I understand the situation,
and I think it's
14 fairly well bourne out in the
documents, they were
15 simply acting on what they heard from
16 Ms. Laframboise and Ms. Malenfant,
acting under the
17 duress or fear of what could happen to
them
18 personally and to their organization,
but not from
19 any real knowledge of me, or my book,
or Mr. Adams.
20
Q Did anybody from the Calgary
ECMAS organization
21 attempt to get in touch with you
regarding these
22 issues?
23
A At the time, none of them made
any attempt that I'm
24 aware of to get in touch with me.
25
Q Did you make any effort to get
in touch with them?
26
A I did in the following week,
and this is -- this is
27 revealed in the tape recording and the
transcript
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00191
1 that has been turned over already of my
2 conversation with Mr. Laberge when I called
him to
3 basically say: Why did you do this?
4
Q Any other conversations with
anybody else at the
5 Calgary arm of ECMAS?
6
A Not at the time. On a later occasion, and I
7
believe these emails have
been turned over as well,
8 on a later occasion I said some things
to
9 Mr. Laberge, and his vice president
responded, and
10 -- but this was at a much -- quite a
bit later
11 time.
I'm presuming you're familiar with those
12 emails, and so I don't need to go into
a long
13 discussion.
14
Q Yes.
15
A And so those were the only
contacts that I had with
16 them.
17
Q And 15(m) is a statement about
the Edmonton chapter
18 of ECMAS electing [Tim] Adams as vice
president on
19 March 12, 2001. Were you at that meeting?
20
A I was.
21 Q
And did you vote for [Tim] Adams?
22
A I did not.
23
Q And did a majority of the
people at that meeting
24 vote for [Tim] Adams?
25
A A slim majority, as those who
counted the ballots
26 described it to us, voted for [Tim]
Adams.
27
Q And did anybody who cast a
vote at the March 12th,
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00192
1 2001, meeting, did they participate by
telephone?
2
A No.
3
Q So all of the members were
present at that meeting
4 that were entitled to vote?
5
A Do you mean all of the board
members?
6
Q Yes.
7
A I'm trying now to recall
whether it's only board
8 meetings that are allowed to be carried
out
9 telephonically, or whether it would
apply to
10
general meetings. In any case, there were no
11 telephone votes there. There were certain people
12 who were either standing to be elected
to the board
13 or were already board members who could
not be
14 there and who let it be known in
advance that they
15 wanted, by absentee ballots, absentee
ballots to be
16 cast in favor of the current president
to be
17 re-elected. So there were some there who -- some
18 board members or to be board members
who were not
19 actually present at that time, in case
that covers
20 your question.
21
Q Were there any absentee
ballots cast for [Tim] Adams?
22
A They would have to -- pretty
well have to have been
23 for [Tim] Adams, as they sort of
calculated it out
24 afterwards because, as I think I've
written in my
25 other document, the number of people
who came
26 visibly with Ms. Malenfant, together
with
27 [Source A]and [his girlfriend],
if you count up those
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone:
(780) 497-4223
00193
1 people, that's basically number of
votes that
2 [Source A] got.
3
Q That [Source A] got?
4
A Got. He was running for president.
5
Q Right.
6
A The others all voted for Bob
Bouvier. I'm sorry,
7 was your question about Bob Bouvier or
[Tim] Adams?
8
Q Was actually about [Tim] Adams.
9
A I'm sorry, I got distracted
there.
10 Q
That's all right.
11
A Because the votes as it turned
out were by written
12 ballot, I do not know which individuals
voted for
13 which person, in a general sort of way,
except in
14 my own case. I know that I voted for [the girlfriend].
15
Q So who were the people running
for the position of
16 vice president?
17
A [Tim] Adams and [the girlfriend].
18
Q Why did you vote for [the girlfriend]?
19
A The story is a bit complicated
again. I've written
20 about it in the earlier exhibit from
last time, so
21 that I'll retell that story, if that
would make
22 things most clear now.
23
Q Yes.
24
A There was a great deal of
concern on my part,
25 shared by a number of others, including
the
26 president, Bob Bouvier, that Ms.
Malenfant might
27 come and stand for one of the offices,
and our
A.C.E.
Reporting Services Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00194
1 feeling was that the best way to try to
avoid her
2 getting on the board was to have
someone already
3 lined up, some candidate. The general problem of
4 not having enough candidates being one
that we'd
5 always lived with. We needed to have someone
6 there.
And so in the run-up to the annual general
7 meeting, we were paying attention to
whether we had
8 candidates for all of the offices, and
sort of at
9 the last minute, there was still no
candidate for
10 vice president. And in discussion with Mr. Bouvier
11 and with another very active member,
Elsie Cable,
12 we were trying to see if we could get
somebody to
13 stand for that position so that Ms.
Malenfant would
14 not be tempted to stand for the
position.
15 Bob and I tried to get Elsie Cable
to stand
16 for that position, and her answer was
she was
17 willing to do so if no one else would
take the job.
18 She really didn't want to very much,
that is, if no
19 one other than Ms. Malenfant would
stand for that
20 position. And Bob also asked [the girlfriend] if
she
21 would stand for that position, and she,
when asked
22 a few weeks in advance of the meeting,
said that
23 she would give it some thought. So we went to the
24 meeting with the assurance that one way
or another,
25 we had a candidate, and if -- one of
those two
26 women would run for vice president.
27 When we got to the meeting, [the girlfriend]
said that she
A.C.E. Reporting Services
Inc.
Phone: (780) 497-4223
00195
1 had decided she would let her name
stand for
2 vice president; and so in a brief
discussion before
3 the meeting, Elsie
said: All right then, of course
4 I won't. We'll just let it be that way. And
5 that's basically the story on how [the girlfriend]
was --
6 originally stood for that
position. She was asked
7 to do so by Bob Bouvier, and accepted
it right at
8 the last minute.
9
Q All right. And do you know how [Tim] Adams came to
10 have his name put forward?
11
A I know what he told me, and,
again, I've written
12 about this already, but it's, of
course, crucial.
13
Q Yes.
14
A I was surprised when he -- the
call was put out for
15 any further nominations, and he put his
name in. I
16 was really quite puzzled at that.
17
Q He nominated himself?
18
A He nominated himself.
19
Q Yes.
20
A Because, again, we had
discussed these things in
21 advance, and he had never given to me
any
22 indication that he was thinking of
running for an
23 office.
In any case, I asked him immediately
24 afterwards, after the meeting when we
could talk
25 about such things, it having been too
difficult to
26 discuss them while the meeting was
going on, and
27 his answer afterwards was that he was
fearful that
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1 [the girlfriend] was in league with Louise Malenfant,
2 and the reason he was fearful of that
is that we
3 had strong suspicions that [Source A]
was in league
4 with Louise Malenfant, and he was
fearful that she
5 would get an ally on the board and that
this should
6 be blocked, if there was some way to do
it. Again,
7 he was concerned about this because of
our previous
8 discussions of Ms. Malenfant's possible
plans, and
9 so that's why he put his name forward,
according to
10 what he told me. And, again, as I've written
11 elsewhere, he was not one of those who
knew that
12 Bob Bouvier had asked [the girlfriend] to
run for the
13 office, and so he was -- he was not in
my position
14 of having the same reason to vote for
her. I hope
15 that's . . .
16
Q So your vote against [Tim]
Adams -- I suppose I
17 shouldn't describe it that way. Your vote for
18 [the girlfriend] had nothing to do with [Tim] Adams'
19 disbarment or any of his criminal
convictions?
20
A No, that doesn't follow. I have -- and, again,
21 I've said this elsewhere, my feeling
was that given
22 his disbarment, he shouldn't be in a
position like
23 that.
I think it's unwise. I don't
think it's
24 morally improper, but I think that a
lot of people
25 would see it as a bad thing, and so for
that reason
26 one should not take a chance on it.
27
Q So not morally wrong but
imprudent?
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Reporting Services Inc.
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00197
1
A Certainly imprudent, given the
way people might
2 view it, many people might view it.
3
Q And so the concern, if I can
put it another way, is
4 a practical one. That organization is dealing with
5 people's perceptions, and people's
perceptions
6 might have an adverse impact on the
efficacy of
7 what the group is trying to accomplish?
8
A Yes, practical in the sense of
prudential.
9
Q Yes. Was your concern about that perception and
10 the imprudence of having [Tim] Adams as
your vice
11 president relating -- was that related
only to his
12 disbarment, or also to his criminal
conviction, or
13 both?
14
A To both, surely.
15
Q And you knew the circumstances
of the criminal
16 conviction of [Tim] Adams and the fact
that he had
17 had sexual relations with a 16-year-old
girl; you
18 knew the background?
19
A He did not have sexual
relations with her. The
20 police arrived and stopped him.
21
Q Oh, I see. All right.
22
A Yes, I knew the basics because [Tim] himself
had
23 told me at the time when he began
coming to the
24 support group. He took me aside and made sure that
25 I was aware of it, and I quite
appreciated his
26 having done that ever afterwards.
27
Q And had he also been very
forthright with you in
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1 terms of disclosing to
you that he had also pleaded
2 guilty to a charge in 1994 of
unlawfully
3 communicating with a person for the
purpose of
4 obtaining sexual services of a
prostitute?
5
A As I recall, he had told me
about that as well, but
6 I couldn't tell you at what time he
told me, and at
7 what point he told me.
8
Q Can you remember at any time
during your work with
9 ECMAS any of the people who attended
those meetings
10 expressing a concern to you about [Tim]
Adams' past
11 or his involvement with ECMAS in light
of that
12 past?
13
A I do not remember anyone being
terribly worried
14 about it. Those of us who knew what he was doing
15 were, like me, very grateful.
16
Q Yes.
17
A Maybe grateful that he had a
past like this,
18 otherwise he likely would not have been
helping us.
19
Q Well, it may be a subtle
distinction, but I hadn't
20 asked you about whether people were
terribly
21 worried. I had asked you whether anybody had
22 expressed a concern. I view those two things as
23 being significantly different.
24
A I see.
25
Q Yes.
26
A I don't remember anyone
expressing concern about
27
it.
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1
Q All right.
2
A It may have. Someone may have done, but . . .
3
Q Nothing that sticks out in your mind?
4
A No, nothing.
5
Q 15(n) in that pleading deals
with the March 25th,
6 2001, meeting of the Edmonton chapter
of ECMAS
7 voting to accept the resignation of
[Tim] Adams as
8 vice president.
9
A M-hm.
10
Q Now, in light of what you've
said about the
11 practical perception and the prudence
of [Tim] Adams
12 being vice president, immediately after
his
13 election did you voice that concern to
[Tim] Adams?
14
A I don't believe I did.
15
Q Why was that?
16
A Just the general rush of
everything. There was
17 bits and pieces of conversation with
this person
18 and that person, and it wasn't a time
when you
19 could sit down and have an in depth
conversation,
20 so that's basically my reason for
thinking I would
21 not have raised it with him.
22
Q Did you express those concerns
to Bob Bouvier?
23
A Again, not at that time, and
for the same reason, I
24 believe.
25
Q I take it from your answers
that sometime, not
26 immediately after the election but at
some point
27 after the election, you expressed those
concerns to
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1 either or both of [Tim] Adams and Bob
Bouvier?
2
A Well, mostly because this
whole matter came up very
3 quickly thereafter, it was naturally a
major point
4
of discussion, indeed.
5
Q Well, I guess what I'm getting
at is, did you
6 express concerns to anybody about the
perception
7 issue, that is, having [Tim] Adams as
the vice
8 president after his election but before
the issues
9 were raised by Donna Laframboise?
10
A Again, I'm quite sure I did
not, there having been
11 no meetings or occasion to sit down to
talk about
12 these things. And, again, if I -- to be very
13 clear, when I say I felt it would be
imprudent for
14 him to be vice president, it's not as
if I saw it
15 as somehow an insurmountable obstacle
and a matter
16 for great alarm. I don't mean to have it
17 understood that way. It's something that's
18 worrisome, but something that, I guess
in my mind,
19 I felt that we could work out and
settle sometime
20 in the weeks ahead so that there was no
rush for me
21 to go to anybody with it.
22 I did have the feeling at the time
that this
23 would probably be quite temporary
because we could
24 get somebody else to take the position,
if, indeed,
25 as he said, he just did this. As Mr. Adams said,
26 this was a stop gap thing that he did
on the spur
27 of the moment. My feeling was it would be easy
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1 enough to change the situation in the
near future,
2 and so there was no need for me to
approach anybody
3 about it.
4
Q At the meeting where Bob
Bouvier and [Tim] Adams
5 were elected, was there any discussion
prior to the
6 vote about thwarting any power grab by
7 Louise Malenfant?
8
A Discussion prior to the
meeting with certain key
9 people, such as Bob Bouvier and Elsie
Cable. Some
10 discussion with [Tim] Adams about it and
with a
11 couple of others, though I don't
remember for sure
12 who the others were.
13
Q But no discussion at the
meeting itself?
14
A No, not at the meeting.
15
Q I started to ask you about the
meeting on March
16 25th, 2001, when [Tim] Adams resigned
and ECMAS
17 voted to accept his resignation. Were you at that
18 meeting?
19
A That's the meeting on the
Sunday that we've
20 described where [Tim] and I were there
for a while
21 and then left.
22
Q Were you aware prior to the
meeting that [Tim] Adams
23 intended to submit his resignation or
tender his
24 resignation?
25
A Yes, indeed. In fact, he had tendered his
26 resignation at the previous meeting the
previous
27 Wednesday, but the board did not accept
it at that
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1 time because they simply didn't know
enough of what
2 was going on. They had heard that Ms. Laframboise
3 was phoning people and making these
accusations and
4 threatening to come up with a newspaper
article,
5 but they didn't have any firsthand
information
6 about that. It was all secondhand reports. So
7 they decided not to accept his
resignation at that
8 time and instead putting it over until
the weekend.
9
Q Did you discuss the concept of
the resignation with
10 [Tim] Adams prior to the Sunday meeting?
11
A Well, at the Wednesday
meeting, we were discussing
12 that, so, yes.
13
Q I guess what I'm getting at,
and I didn't do a very
14 good job of asking this question,
is: Did you take
15 a position and tell [Tim] Adam whether
you thought
16 he should resign or not?
17
A I presume I did, but there was
never any real
18 question. He had already told Ms. Laframboise that
19 he would resign. We all saw this as something that
20 was reasonable to do, and there was, as
I recall,
21 not a lot of discussion about his doing
it. It was
22 just a need for clarification of what's
going on
23 before it was actually done, before it
was
24 accepted. But he was -- there was no need to tell
25 him, "You should resign,"
because he had given us
26 his resignation.
27 Q
All right. Well, at the Wednesday
meeting where he
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1 tendered his resignation, did you take
a position
2 or a stand as to whether or not he
should or
3 shouldn't do that?
4
A As I'm saying now, I don't
remember any of my words
5 there, but I am sure that I took no
position
6 against it, that any position I took
was in favor
7 of his doing it.
8
Q And that's consistent with the
belief that you had
9 right from the moment when he was
elected that,
10
from a practical perception
perspective, it wasn't
11 good for the organization for him to be
vice president?
12
A That's fair to say, yes.
13
(DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)
14
(ADJOURNMENT)
15
Q MR. KOZAK: I wanted to ask you a few
16 questions about Louise Malenfant. When did you
17 first learn of her work? I assume you knew about
18 her work before you met her?
19
A Oh, yes, for some years. I could not put a date on
20 it, but I was aware for at least
several years
21 before inviting her to Edmonton that
she was there
22 helping people that she believed had
been falsely
23 accused of child sex abuse, and at one
point she
24 sent me some material that she had
written, and it
25 seemed to be fairly well written, and
it was
26 voluminous. Here's a person who puts out huge
27 amounts of material, and that can be
very good, if
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1 you can get somebody who can -- is very
good at
2 writing a lot on a subject and writing
reasonably
3 well.
That's -- I certainly felt a need for that
4 in our situation here.
5
Q And what was it that made you
aware of her work? I
6 mean, how did you learn of her work?
7
A I can't be sure at the
first. One thing that I do
8 know is that I met her at a conference
in Winnipeg
9 put on by a local equality group on the
specific
10 problem of false accusations, and she
was at that
11 meeting, and I met her in person
briefly at that
12 time and heard her speak to the group,
standing up
13
in the audience and making
points, and found her
14 fairly articulate. So I guess the first time I
15 can -- I can be sure that I knew about
her was at
16 that meeting, although I'm reasonably
sure I'd
17 heard something about her before then.
18
Q Do you recall the approximate
date of that meeting?
19
A I would guess about 1996, but
I could be off by a
20 year in either direction, easily.
21 Q
The large volume of writing that she sent to you,
22 do you remember the subject matter of
that?
23
A It all had to do with these
accusations of child
24 sex abuse.
25
Q And was it only that general
knowledge that
26 precipitated your invitation to her to
come to
27 Edmonton to do this contract work that
you've
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1 described?
2
A Pretty well just a general
knowledge, being
3 desperate for help. I guess, in retrospect, I
4 should have gotten more detailed knowledge
about
5 her, but that was -- I think it's
correct to say
6 that that's about all I knew.
7
Q So you had met her once. You had received some of
8 her written work, and you may have been
aware
9 generally of some other things that she
had done?
10
A Yes.
11
Q Did you look into her
background or ask for
12 references before inviting her to
Edmonton?
13
A No. No, I did not.
14
Q And for those three months
when she received $2,000
15 from you, what was your assessment of
her work?
16
A I'm hoping you don't want huge
amounts of detail.
17 I felt that her work was somewhat more
sloppy than
18 I had originally assumed or hoped,
nevertheless in
19 a correctable way. I'm speaking as an academic
20 with high standards of rigor; but,
nevertheless,
21
she's quite articulate, and if
by her work you're
22 referring to the written material she
-- written
23 material she produced, I would say that
my
24 assessment was: Well, this isn't quite good
25 enough, but we can -- we can fix that,
so it's
26 okay.
27
Q So not great but capable of
rehabilitation?
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1
A Capable. Had she had the right personality, and
2 she was willing to correct herself and
improve her
3 work, certainly good enough.
4
Q So did you judge her personality
to be unsuitable
5 for the work you envisioned?
6
A You say
"personality" as opposed to ability?
Is
7 that -- that's what you --
8
Q I did say
"personality," but I thought that I was
9 repeating a word that you had
used. I might not
10 have heard it correctly.
11
A Oh, sorry. Then in that case, when I spoke of her
12 personality, I had in mind her, as I
discovered
13 later, her unwillingness to work in a
congenial way
14 with other people, and I think if she
-- if she had
15 been more willing to work
cooperatively, then there
16 would have been no problem because she
does have
17 the ability.
18
Q How did that uncooperative
attitude first manifest
19 itself?
20
A Here again, I'm not sure how
much detail you want,
21 how much -- I'm certainly not sure how
much is
22 relevant really, but very soon after
she arrived in
23 Edmonton, I became aware that she's
very rigid,
24 very judgmental, very insensitive to
other people,
25 and it just got worse from there.
26
Q And her insensitivity and
rigidity, as it was I
27 suppose demonstrated to you and to
others, was this
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1 primarily within the context of ECMAS?
2
A No, because ECMAS was not
directly involved in
3 this.
She was working for me on people -- stories
4 of people that were -- that come to
MERGE meetings.
5
Q Yes.
6
A Which I think -- I guess that
answers your
7 question.
8
Q Yes. So was she actively involved at MERGE
9 meetings?
10
A What happened was that when
she first came, I held
11 a meeting of the MERGE Police Committee
and the
12 MERGE Child Welfare Committee, two
separate
13 meetings right away, invited her to
each one and
14 introduced her to the group and
explained to them
15 that we've had this problem of needing
to get your
16 stories written up in a nice, careful
way, and I
17 hadn't had time to do it, and many of
you have not
18 had really the ability to do it, to do
it well, so
19 now we've got someone here who can help
get these
20 stories written up, research them and
written up.
21 Subsequent to those first two
meetings, we
22 began having some serious conflicts,
and so I
23 didn't call any more MERGE meetings at
which she
24 would have attended.
25
Q I'm just trying to get an idea
of the nature of the
26 conflicts. Was she reluctant to write the stories,
27 or was she --
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1
A Oh, no, she was -- I mean,
that -- not to write the
2 stories, and it wasn't really so much a
conflict
3 over the stories themselves initially,
although at
4 the end I discovered that she was not
happy with my
5 making suggestions on changes and the
need for
6 such.
The problem was much more serious than that,
7 as I see it.
8 Again, I'm wondering just how much
this is
9 really relevant to the lawsuit. I'm perfectly
10 willing to share it, but I'm -- you can
see that
11 I'm a bit concerned.
12
Q Well, no, I believe it is
relevant, and that's why
13 I've asked the question. You know, your counsel is
14 here to object to things that aren't
relevant. I
15 see it as relevant, given the nature of
the
16 allegations made and the suggestion
that there was
17 malice in either direction, either the
Counterclaim
18 or the Claim.
19
A M-hm.
20
Q So I'm trying to get a sense
of what it was that
21
caused the falling out
between you and
22 Ms. Malenfant.
23
A I'm perfectly willing to share
that. My concern is
24 that if Donna didn't know any of these
details,
25 then it wouldn't be relevant to her --
any malice
26 on her part, although it certainly
would be
27 relevant to the motives of Ms.
Malenfant.
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1
MR. BROWN: He's just
here to discover
2 you, so he can -- you can elaborate on
it. If it
3 turns out that it's irrelevant, then it
goes by the
4
wayside, but you might as
well.
5
A Okay. Let's see if I can give enough -- more
6 detail that would be helpful.
7 The biggest problem arose from the
fact that
8 she's a very harsh person, very harsh
and
9 judgmental, and she would -- when she
disagrees
10 with something, instead of discussing
it and
11 arguing, as a philosopher might, here
are my
12 reasons, and so on, it was more like
sneering and
13 jeering, and I found that hard to deal
with. And
14 when I reacted negatively, she became
even worse.
15 And worst of all, she began making
false
16 accusations at me, not to anybody else
at that
17 point, just saying things that --
making claims
18 about what I had said and done that we
both knew
19 were false, and to me this is scary.
20 When I -- when she persisted in
this behavior,
21 I said:
Look, I have to protect myself.
Let us
22 from this point on, unless other people
are around
23 so I have witnesses, let us communicate
just by
24 telephone, and let us both record those
telephone
25 conversations, or by email. I was that concerned
26 by that point about being falsely
accused by
27 Louise Malenfant.
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1
Q MR. KOZAK: What was she falsely accusing
2 you of?
3
A A variety of things. I do have some records on
4 this at this point from the time that
it began to
5 start, sometimes quite trivial things,
and the
6 trivial things can be even scarier
because you say:
7 Why would a person go that far knowing
that it's
8 not true?
9 I hesitate to answer in a lot of
detail
10 without going back and looking at some
of -- some
11 of the emails that I have, for example,
but let's
12 see if I can -- if I can remember.
13 Okay, there was -- I had
said: It looks as
14 if there's so much conflict here that
we may not be
15 able to work together. And her email came back and
16 said:
You're trying to drive me out of Alberta.
17 Now, this is quite crazy. Not being able to work
18 together is not the same thing as
saying: I want
19 to drive her out of the province. But the fact
20 that she would say this sort of thing,
sort of
21 outrageous thing, put a lot of fear
into me. I
22 hope that an example will help, but it
was this
23
kind of thing.
24
Q Well, did it go beyond a
communication problem,
25 because to me that sounds as if you've
expressed a
26 concern, and she has escalated the
concern, I'm
27 sure in your mind very
inappropriately? Was it
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1 something beyond that?
2
A Well, again, there were --
there were many events,
3 and I wouldn't want to try to describe
them here
4 without checking some of my notes, but
one from
5 very early on I can report.
6 I was -- she did not have an
automobile, did
7 not drive, and so initially I was
driving her
8 around to various meetings, and on one
occasion I
9 was taking her out to meet this
long-time activist,
10 Elsie Cable, whom I mentioned. We were driving
11 out, and on the way she said: Could we stop and
12 get some coffee? And it didn't seem like a very
13 serious matter to me. I said:
Oh, please wait.
14
When we get to Elsie's, she'll
have some waiting
15 for you. She likes to serve her guests. And a
16 little farther along, we were coming up
to a
17 7-Eleven, and she said: I'd like to go in there
18 and use the restroom. So I stopped there, and
19 instead of heading for the restroom
when she got
20 inside, she headed straight for the
coffee machine,
21 and, not thinking quite fast enough, I
said: Oh,
22 remember, Elsie can give us some coffee
when we get
23 there.
And she looked at me with steely eyes and
24 said:
Don't give me orders.
25 There were lots of things like that
that I
26 found very, very hard to deal with.
27
Q It sounds like you two didn't
hit it off.
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1
A That's a correct inference.
2
Q All right. Well, perhaps what I'll do is I'll ask
3 you to check the emails that you've
referred to, to
4 see if there are other instances that
shed some
5 light on this falling out that you've
had, because
6 I draw a distinction between the types
of examples
7 that you've given, which I'm sure were
very
8 troubling to you, and what you had
conveyed
9 earlier, that is, where you were
"falsely accused"
10 of things, I think those were your
words, so in
11 this case she falsely accused you of
giving her
12 orders.
Is that a fair description?
13
A I wasn't thinking of it that
way. I was thinking
14 of her accusation that I meant to drive
her out of
15 the province.
16
Q I see. Would it be fair to characterize your worry
17 as she misunderstood or misinterpreted
things that
18 you said to her?
19
A It's hard for me to see how a
reasonable person
20 could misunderstand that egregiously,
so I guess I
21 wouldn't accept that.
22
Q Well, I'm going to ask you to
undertake to produce
23 any emails or other documents that you
have that
24 document the falling out or the
deterioration in
25
your relationship with
Louise Malenfant, subject to
26 any concern or objection that your
counsel has to
27 relevance. Would you undertake to provide those to
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1 your lawyer?
2
A Subject to relevance, yes,
that's not a problem.
3
Q All right.
4 UNDERTAKING NO.
17:
5 PRODUCE ANY EMAILS OR OTHER DOCUMENTS
THAT
6 DR. CHRISTENSEN HAS THAT DOCUMENT THE
FALLING OUT
7 OR THE DETERIORATION IN HIS
RELATIONSHIP WITH
8 LOUISE MALENFANT.
9
Q MR. KOZAK: How soon in this three-months
10 tenure, and I'm referring to the three
months for
11 which she was paid, did these issues
start to
12 manifest themselves?
13
A Quite early on, the first
couple of weeks really,
14 and what happened then, we had quite a
-- quite a
15 blow-up over it; but then as we got
close to the
16 end of the first month, she began
talking in a more
17 reasonable way to question whether she
would get
18 paid again, and we managed to get a
detente, and we
19 worked together, mostly uneventfully,
until close
20 to the end of the three-month period.
21
Q In your mind, was she that
mercenary that she
22 modified her behavior just to assure
herself of
23 getting the next $2,000 installment?
24
A Well, she doesn't have any
money otherwise, so it's
25 -- but, obviously, I can't -- I can't
speak to her
26 inner thoughts, but the timing was such
that that
27 seemed to be what made her change.
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1
Q Prior to the article being
published, or I guess
2 prior to Donna Laframboise speaking to
3 Louise Malenfant about her planned
article, do you
4 know whether or not Louise Malenfant
had any views
5 about the views that you had expressed
in your
6 book?
7
A Let's see now, the question is
whether I knew back
8 when we were working together, or . . .
9
Q At some point in time Louise
Malenfant had a
10 discussion with Donna Laframboise about
your book?
11
A M-hm.
12
Q I can't remember exactly when
that was, but I'm
13 wondering whether or not the topic of
your book, or
14 the subject matter contained within
your book, that
15 is, pornography, had ever been part of
a discussion
16
you had with Louise Malenfant?
17
A No. Pretty safe to say that it was never
discussed
18 between us. There wouldn't have been any reason,
19 and, to my knowledge, it wasn't until
January after
20 we had ceased communicating that she
learned about
21 the existence of the book.
22
Q I'll get back to that. You described a period of
23 detente and then said things were more
or less on
24
an even keel until the end
of the three-month
25 period.
Did things come to a head sometime at the
26 end of the three-month period?
27
A Yes. Yes, in several ways, and there were some
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1 incidents during the period as well
when she would
2 do things that were clearly, as I saw
it, contrary
3 to our understanding of working
together, and there
4 were some conflicts, but nothing
serious until
5 toward the end.
6 Again, I would feel much better to
review some
7
of the documents rather than take a chance on
8 getting important details wrong, but it
came down
9 to extreme insubordination and
unwillingness to
10 work in the way I would think a
reasonable person
11 would work, involving things like sort
of taking
12 over.
13 How do I put this? Let's see if I can give a
14 brief -- a brief account of one major
problem. We
15 had an understanding, just strictly oral,
before
16 she ever came that she could do some of
her own
17 kind of activist work while she was
here, just on
18 her own time, as long as she followed
my
19 instructions when doing the work for
me, and early
20 on I tried to make it clear to her that
this didn't
21 mean that she could just take the
people that I
22 sent to her and do whatever she wanted with
them
23 because it might conflict with the
plans that we
24 had in MERGE. And it was a gross violation of that
25 understanding that, toward the end,
that brought
26 the final break. Basically, what she did was to
27 take some brief write-ups, so some of
these
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1 people's horror stories having --
people who had